Talk:Telesilla/GA1

GA Review

Passed. Urve (talk) 07:51, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Urve (talk · contribs) 09:40, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Will review. My first thought is that I'm surprised that the Greek rendering of her name, Τελέσιλλα, is not here; Robbins gives it and the alternative transliteration Telésilla. Urve (talk) 09:40, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments! I've replied inline to them. I have added the Greek spelling of Telesilla Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'm not trying to be difficult, below I am just wondering what the state of scholarship is. Maybe my comments come off as asking for things that aren't required by WP:GA?, but I'm seeing the sources I listed below as part of the broadness criterion - you can't know if something is broad without taking a look at scholarship and seeing if there are things that aren't included here. So all I'm really asking for your feedback on whether it's something that should be included, and if not, why we should omit it - it's not a demand to include these things, some of which (like the Apollo-Sun connection) may be inconsequential to this poet's biography. And of course, I might be totally off base with everything... this is my first look into Greek poetry on WP, so be gentle ;) Urve (talk) 22:14, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please do be difficult – this is really useful feedback! Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:48, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Urve: I think I've now addressed all of your comments :) Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:38, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well-written:

later

Verifiable, broad, neutral:

Looking through some sources, I am genuinely unsure whether we can say "the story was probably not true". This chapter – Martinez Morales, Jennifer (2019). "Women on the Walls? The Role and Impact of Women in Classical Greek Sieges". In Armstrong, Jeremy; Trundle, Matthew (eds.). Brill's Companion to Sieges in the Ancient Mediterranean. Brill's Companions to Classical Studies. Brill. ISBN 978-90-04-41374-0. – has a much less authoritative stance on the matter, saying that while "Many modern scholars are somewhat sceptical" of the Pausanian account, "there is nothing ... to suggest this is an implausible story" because of other attested accounts of women's involvement in Greek sieges, and because women would have been left behind to defend.
- I could add a mention of Martinez Morales' position, but I think "the story was probably not true" is a fair description of current scholarship; Davies' commentary in LAFGP 2021 says that Telesilla's involvement at Sepeia is "usually regarded as a later invention", and he doesn't mention any scholars who disagree. And even Martinez Morales' extreme position only goes so far as saying that "with the exception of Telesilla's leadership role" there is nothing unusual about the story and that other than the fact that the one nearly contemporary source about the battle doesn't mention it it's not inherently implausible. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  - Davies' writing on Telesilla in LAFGP is not without criticism. "As regards the method used for Telesilla, both the bibliography (outdated) and the contextualisation of the references to her dating are poor" says D'Alfonso, Francesca (2021). "A Commentary on Greek Lyric Fragments". Classical Review. 71 (2): 291–292. doi:10.1017/S0009840X21001293. If its bibliography is outdated, can we rely on it? Not trying to be difficult - I really don't know the answer to this and am genuinely asking. I don't research much classical antiquity, but what I do look at (biblical apocrypha), some subjects can change rapidly in scholarly understanding within a few years, and others are essentially moribund for centuries.
  - There is a collection of writings that treat the story as historical, albeit an old one (and scholarship has doubtless changed since then?), at fn 28 of Leahy, D. M. (1958). "The Spartan Defeat at Orchomenus". Phoenix. 12 (4): 141–165.
  - I can't read Italian and can't find it, so I don't know whether this book is saying something different than what the article is (our statement of "probably invented" makes me think it is?). But according to a review at doi:10.1017/S0009840X14000444, the book E. Franchi; G. Proietti, eds. (2012). Forme della memoria e dinamiche identitarie nell'antichità greco-romana. Università degli Studi di Trento. ISBN 978-88-8443-447-0. suggests a mapping rather than invention.
    - Hmm, I shall have to do some thinking. Along with Martinez Morales, Tomlinson (1972) Argos and the Argolid is on team the story of the women defending Argos is not impossible, though Telesilla's role is likely exaggerated, and Valdes Guia ("La batalla de Sepea y las Hybristika"), as far as I can make out with my very limited Spanish, also talks about a "historical nucleus" to the story, so possibly that's a sufficiently mainstream viewpoint to merit some mention in the article. I don't have access to Franchi's chapter on Telesilla from Forme della memoria, and my Italian is basically nonexistent, but the English-language abstract here seems to be broadly in agreement with the article's current viewpoint (and this 2022 article also seems to broadly agree). I will try to write up some more nuance on this at the weekend. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:48, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Martinez Morales discusses a "statue of Telesilla" - are you familiar with it? Can any more info be added? Thorsen, Thea Selliaas (2012). "Sappho, Corinna and Colleagues in Ancient Rome. Tatian's Catalogue of Statues (Oratio ad Graecos 33-4) Reconsidered". Mnemosyne. 65: 695–715. says it was made by Niceratus.
- The statue of Telesilla by Niceratus is already mentioned in the article. We could maybe add that Tatian saw the statue in Rome, but other than that I don't think anything else is known about it. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes, I thought I deleted this comment - not sure what was actually deleted! Thank you.

Martinez Morales says Argos had no men; so should it be "the old men, slaves, and women of the city"? Or possibly "the women of the city, including the old and the enslaved"? Martinez Morales also says the Pausanian story describes her only giving arms to those "'in their prime' or 'most vigorous'". And Martinez Morales gives more details on what we mean by "defend it until the Spartans withdrew" - "they surrounded the walls (τείχη) with arms"

On that point, Scott also says it was women in the city because the men were gone. (Appendix 6, n 4)
- Rayor explicitly says old men. Plant says "all those left in the city, including the women", which implies some men. Pausanias says that Telesilla sent "those who were too young or too old to bear arms"; as no women served in the Argive army regardless of their age we can presume that he means men who were too young or old to bear arms. (And Scott, when he discusses the Telesilla story in depth, also says "she manned the walls with the household servants, the old men, the youths, and the women" [App.15 §7]) Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  - Thanks. I trust you on this - out of my own curiosity I'll keep reading, though, and report back if I have anything to say :)

More information on her Apollo writings (relating him to the Sun as Φιληλιάς, an early identification with some debate) can be found in Bilić, Tomislav (2021). "Early Identifications of Apollo with the Physical Sun in Ancient Greece: Tradition and Interpretation". Mnemosyne. 74: 709–736.
- Interesting article, but I don't think super important for a discussion of Telesilla. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:36, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A description of the stele can be found in Pretzler, Maria (2017). "Pausanias". In Koen De Temmerman; Evert van Emde Boas (eds.). Characterization in Ancient Greek Literature. Ancient Greek Narrative. Brill. ISBN 978-90-04-35631-3.
- I have added a brief description of the stele. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  - Thanks, this is what my comment about the statue was supposed to be :)

more later

I found an interesting discussion on the purpose of some of Telesilla's writing - not only women's lives, but placing women in choral ceremonies. Ingalls, Wayne B. (2000). "Ritual Performance as Training for Daughters in Archaic Greece". Phoenix. 54 (1/2): 1–20.
- Thanks - not much new in this, but I've added a little more on the role of choruses of young girls Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:48, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Stable, images:

images OK per [1]; may want to structure File:Apollo Met Museum.jpg like the file at File:Limestone statuette of Artemis with a fawn MET DP148318.jpg.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.