Talk:Tabitha (name)

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Tabitha (name) was copied or moved into Tabitha with this edit on 05:35, 8 July 2012 (UTC). The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Name change

@Editor2020, StAnselm, Jimmy Maxwell Jaffa, 76.169.126.143, Jweaver28, Pisarz12345, Daask, Ret.Prof, SnowFire, and Alan347: hi. On 31 Aug. I proposed the following, but the proposal was sent back to the talk pages by EurekaLott: "Tabitha (name)", currently a redirect to the article Tabitha, should be removed. "Tabitha" should be renamed "Tabitha (name)".

Reasoning: We now have the source of the name, [Saint] Tabitha from the Bible, under the wrong article name, "Dorcas", which is a secondary, translated version of her name. That article deserves the name "Tabitha" with no further qualifications, since all Tabithas got their name from that one and the Bible is the best known book in the world, but that option is blocked by the current name of the article about the English name. The current "Tabitha" article, which is about the given name & surname and their wider use in English, should best be called "Tabitha (name)", but this redirect here (i.e. "Tabitha (name)") blocks this option. So two ideal article names are blocked by this redirect.

To recap what I am asking for:
- The article about the original Tabitha from the Bible to be called "Tabitha" (not "Dorcas", that being a translated, and therefore derived, secondary name).
- The article about the English name Tabitha to be called "Tabitha (name)" (not simply "Tabitha", since there is a more famous Tabitha, the biblical figure, who is more deserving).
To make that possible,
- The redirect "Tabitha (name)" leading to the article about the English name, should be removed, as it blocks two logical renamings. Then I'll take it from there.

Please contribute your opinion, so that the admins can rule on my redirect removal request and renaming intentions. Thank you, Arminden (talk) 13:55, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

PS: The discussion has already been started a while ago at Talk:Dorcas#Article name. Let's now try and keep it here, there I've posted a note about this new, broader discussion here. Thanks, Arminden (talk) 14:01, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Arminden, this isn't the correct way to request a move. Please follow the instructions at WP:RM#CM to gather input from the community. - Eureka Lott 14:07, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

EurekaLott, thanks. Learning. Let's see if it does bring in more of the people actually interested in the topic, but "rules are rules", ain't that so? Arminden (talk) 14:27, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Taking the temperature" on a talk page is fine, but expecting the "admins to rule" is... that's exactly what the requested move process is for, precisely to inform the wider community, not a select group of editors. Please follow the instructions as EurekaLott noted, the procedure is not difficult. SnowFire (talk) 14:39, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Although I will recommend in advance that you keep your arguments to naming policy. Arguing which name is more "deserving" sounds like WP:ILIKEIT, which is an argument to avoid. If you want to argue that Dorcas should be moved to Tabitha, I'd argue that's really more of a RM for Talk:Dorcas, and I would recommend taking the time to formulate a WP:COMMONNAME argument - is the figure known more often as "Tabitha" or as "Dorcas" in English literature? That's the really important question - nobody contests that "Dorcas" is the Greek name, but names-in-translation are very common in English and on Wikipedia. We use Paul the Apostle not Saul, after all. SnowFire (talk) 14:50, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

EurekaLott I see it doesn't actually fully apply here, since here it's about removing a redirect and those instructions are about renaming an article. So I'll do it at "Tabitha" and "Dorcas". Whatever helps reaching the goal of logic & user-friendliness.

Now I see that we have a Catch 22 situation: if the redirect Tabitha (name) (this one) isn't removed, we cannot rename Tabitha to "Tabitha (name)". If that's not done, we cannot rename Dorcas to "Tabitha". The instructions you've indicated (WP:RM#CM) don't deal with redirect removal. Or do they remove the obstacle (this redirect) automatically if they approve the move? Thanks.

SnowFire, many thanks to you too. It's not a Saul/Paul case, Saul received the new name in an explicit manner and was known by it in Christian literature from then on. Re. the number of uses, that has been already rejected by an editor on the talk-page, but that's their personal opinion; stats are also in favour of Tabitha. There are indeed different uses for the two versions, Dorcas popping up mainly in connection with a closely associated, but separate and derived term: Dorcas society. There are no good arguments (neither common use, nor academic discussion of the biblical figure or the direct etymology of the name) in favour of Dorcas over Tabitha when referring to the person, not the societies. Arminden (talk) 15:27, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Tabitha which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:32, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Dorcas which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 00:20, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]