Talk:Syrian towns and villages depopulated in the Arab–Israeli conflict/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Syrian towns and villages depopulated in the Arab–Israeli conflict. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Article name

No issues with content, provided WP:RS, however the title should probably be changed to reflect current WP naming on similar articles, like the List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus, which is mentioned in the "See also" section. --nsaum75 ^¡שיחת! 16:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I thought about that but, Quneitra for example was demolished in 1974, and some other villages were demolished in 1971. And I dont know if some were demolished after the six day war in 1967. More sources are indeed needed, there should be at least 25-30 more villages to ad to the list. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:18, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Maybe there should be a notation of the year included next to villages for which WP:RS year can be found, example: "Quneitra (1974)" --nsaum75 ^¡שיחת! 16:22, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

AfD

I have put this article up for deletion,since - contrary to what was suggested by Gilabrand and Stellarkid - it does not seem to meet the criteria for speedy deletion. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:12, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, Ani medjool appears to be a sock of Supreme Deliciousness. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Supreme Deliciousness. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 00:56, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Oops, didn't know there were two categories for delete, "speedy" and otherwise. Stellarkid (talk) 02:54, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Depopulated before the 1967 war?

I read statements that many of these villages on the Golan Heights were evacuated by the Syrian army well before the 1967 war, when they set up their large Golan heights military zone. Not by Israel.Anthony Appleyard (talk)

Please provide a source. This article lists those which were destroyed by Israel. Maybe we can also have a page List of Syrian towns and villages evacuated by Syria? Chesdovi (talk) 10:39, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

From List of villages depopulated during the Arab–Israeli conflict :

In addition to the villages evacuated or where the residents were expelled in the West Bank during the Six-Day War, over 100,000 Golan Heights residents were evacuated from about 25 villages whether on orders of the Syrian government or through fear of an attack by the Israeli Defense Forces and forced expulsion after the cease fire. UN Doc A/8089 5 October 1970]

If the residents were indeed removed, not to return, long before "destruction" occured, this page name gives the wrong impression. Words like "Abandoned" and "deserted", not "destroyed", spring to mind. Chesdovi (talk) 10:50, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

If a village is "abandoned" or "deserted", then the buildings presumably still exist, awaiting the return of the original inhabitants. If, as even Chesdovi seems to agree above, they have been destroyed, then this is an appropriate name.RolandR 11:30, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

No, this is not an appropriate name for the simple reason that there is no proof Israel destroyed them - if they ever existed to begin with. Quneitra, for example, was used as an Israeli army base and frequently shelled by the Syrians before it was returned to Syria in 1974. So at least part of the damage cannot be attributed to Israel.--Gilabrand (talk) 11:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Prescisley, over the years, without maintenance, all properties are exposed to the weather and are destroyed by nature, as with the Dead Cities of Syria. Chesdovi (talk) 12:11, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Israeli destruction of the villages and depopulation

Here is a source showing that Israel destroyed all villages except five: "With thousands of people forced to leave the Occupied Golan and unable to return, (an estimated 130,000 people), the Israeli military were, for the most part, unopposed in their administration of the newly occupied territory and began a widespread campaign that destroyed numerous villages and farms. The only villages to escape the campaign of destruction were Majdal Shams, Masa’da, Bqa’atha, ‘Ein Qinyeh, and Al-Ghajar, five small villages in the valley of Mount Hermon."

Depopulation: "The depopulation of the Syrian Golan of its native inhabitants was the first major abuse conducted in the Golan during and following the end of the 1967 war between Israel and its Arab neighbours. Prior to the occupation, the Syrian Golan contained approximately 153,000 inhabitants; following the capture of 70% of the Golan territory by Israel, approximately 130,000 were forcibly transferred or displaced to Syria proper43and forbidden from returning. The remaining population of Syrian inhabitants remained in six villages located at the extreme north of the Golan. These villages were Majdal Shams, Masa’da, Bqa’atha, ‘Ein Qinyeh, Al Ghajar, and Su’heita. In 1967 Su’heita was partially destroyed and a military post built in its place. It was completely destroyed in 1971-2 and its population forcibly transferred to the neighbouring town Masa’da; the original inhabitants of Su’heita are still fighting today for the return to their village."

"Israel succeeded in depopulating the Golan through a number of means, including its regime of Military Orders that were introduced to administer the newly occupied territory. For example, a number of Military Orders declared that certain areas were closed military zones, effectively meaning that no one was permitted to enter the zone and anyone doing so was severely punished. Military Order 39, 27 August 1967 ordered that 101 villages in the Occupied Golan be declared closed military zones. Nobody was allowed to enter the villages listed without special permission. Anyone who violated this order was subject to a punishment of five years imprisonment or a fine of five thousand Israeli Liras,or both.45 Through such orders, Israeli enforced the depopulation of the occupied territory of its native Syrian inhabitants by prohibiting Syrian citizens, who had been forcibly transferred, displaced or who had fled the conflict,from returning to their place of residence in the Occupied Golan."

"The Israelis forced the people to leave the village and also the other villages surrounding Majdal Shams. A lot of people came to hide in Majdal Shams because it was far in the mountains. Some people were hiding in the school others were hiding in the houses. Everyday, the Israelis came and started shouting at them. After two weeks the Israelis told the people who were hiding that they could return safely to their own villages. As the people came out of hiding the Israeli soldiers began to shoot at them to frighten them and make them run away to other parts of Syria. The people had been tricked by the Israelis into thinking it was safe to come out of hiding and return to their villages."

"During the war in 1967 roughly about half the people from Jubata Ez-Zeit left their village and came to Majdal Shams to hide because it was perceived to be a safe place, because it was high in the mountain. They had left Jubata because they were afraid of the war. After the war the Israeli military occupied the village of Jubata and began to forcibly transfer the people who had remained in Jubata, the people who had left Jubata and tried to return once they thought it was safe were also transferred. The Israeli army began shooting in the air and towards the people, all the time, to frighten the people of Jubata, to transfer the people from the village. After the transfer Jubata became a closed military area; nobody could return. Before the war the village of Jubata had about 1,500 2,000 people something like that, after the transfer nobody remained."

"We know of a number of cases from Jubata Ez-Zeit where disabled people were in the village; the Israeli army brought donkeys for them and put the disabled people on the donkeys and transferred them out of the Golan. The transfer of the people of Jubata and other villages in the occupied Golan was an act planned by Israel. It’s impossible, as I said before, that there would be no people left because some people, disabled people, some crazy people and some very old people, they would all want to stay in their homes. When you find that 100% of the people are gone from the villages, it means, without going to the details, these people were forced to leave their villages. For example, look at Palestine in 1948; some of the Palestinians remained it’s the same in any conflict areas. Even the Israelis have said in a lot of documentation and also in a lot of T.V. programs how they practiced pressure in order to force the people of the Occupied Golan to leave…Ok I mean its very normal under conflict situation that people leave their villages, however, that does not mean they don’t want to come back, if the Israelis were sincere about peace than I think the people that were forcibly transferred from the Golan should be allowed return."

http://www.badil.org/en/documents/category/33-ongoing-displacement?download=586%3Amarsad-israel-s-gross-violations-of-international-law-in-the-occupied-syrian-golan --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:02, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Nuclear reactor

The nuclear reactor added by user Gilbrand is not appropriate for this "List of Syrian towns and villages destroyed by Israel" article. If no evidence is presented that this nuclear reactor is in fact a village or a town, it should be removed from the article.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:21, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Agree this does not belong on this page as it is neither a town nor a village. As such, I've deleted that section. Tiamut^talk 13:03, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Alphabetical sorting

I tried to get some order into this list, but I don't speak Arabic, and there may be issues with the order I put them in. Specifically:

I ignored apostrophes, see for example the three "Z" entries. Is that the correct order, or should an apostrophe be treated as a letter of its own?
Names consisting of several words, separated either by a dash or by a space, I sorted by the first word, then by the second word etc. So anything of the type "Al X" is sorted before "Ala Y". Is that correct? Al Derdarah and Alderdara might even be different transliterations of the same name.

We should also aim for uniform standards of transliteration and capitalization. I find it hard to believe that Al Haseiniya and Al husseiniya are both correctly capitalized according to the same transliteration (they may even be different transliterations of the same name, too). Huon (talk) 17:29, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I am right now going through the list little by little everyday and are trying to correct the spelling and ad links, but it takes a lot of time, so please people, have patience. I will take care of it. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:13, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Did you change the name of any of the villages? spelling?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:37, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I didn't change any spelling; all I did was cut & paste. I did remove a few duplicate entries, though. I don't think there really were two villagas of the same name on the Golan Heights. Huon (talk) 22:06, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Searching for reliable sources: Atlases or NIMA Joint Operations Graphics maps?

Does anyone have access to a pre-1967 atlas published by a mainstream publisher containing a detailed map of, or gazetteer for, Syria that might be usable as an independent, verifiable, reliable source for the names of the populated places given here?

Or, alternatively something like this map, cited as "Portion of Dimashq (Damascus), Syria; Lebanon, Joint Operations Graphic (AIR), Series 1501 AIR, Sheet NI 37-9, Edition 4. Original scale 1:250,000. U.S. National Imagery and Mapping Agency, compiled November 1972, revised July 1998, air information current through 5 April 1999. Not for navigational use", which seems to show older settlements? Many of these NIMA Joint Operations Graphics maps are available for sale to the public online; I haven't yet found a free source for more than a few of them. -- The Anome (talk) 23:36, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Destroyed by Syria?

Is it possible that some villages were destroyed by Syrian fire during the war? Also have any which now lie in Syrian territory been rebuilt? (See "Adaniyeh and Asheh, two nearby villages destroyed in the 1967 war.") Chesdovi (talk) 00:29, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

If you want to make this claim you have to show a reliable source for it. I have provided evidence that all but five villages were destroyed by Israel. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:01, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, the source I provided clearly says the villages of Adaniyeh and Asheh were destroyed during the war. We don't know by whom. If these villages are not on the current "destroyed by Israel" list, we may as well make a list containing the Syrian villages destroyed by Syria. (They do seem to be capable of this.) Chesdovi (talk) 18:11, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Gilabrand tampering with the article

Gilabrand is tampering with the article by removing source that Israel destroyed the villages, and removed several templates, categories and an image without explanation. http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=List_of_Syrian_towns_and_villages_destroyed_by_Israel&action=historysubmit&diff=324906149&oldid=324905329 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:40, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

No opinion about the cats and templates, but replacing the claims made by a partisan NGO group with a BBC reference is an improvement in my opinion. As I said above the sourcing is a problem at the moment, and at least this is a step in the right direction. But I agree that changes should better be discussed or explained on the talk page. Pantherskin (talk) 10:30, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

He removed that the villages were destroyed, which is not contradicting the BBC source. Changed the name of the article repeatedly without asking, and the RfCs are not completed yet. If you read here there is interviews from refugees who describe events of the depopulation. He said they "left the Golan Heights".--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:56, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

380 villages destroyed by Ottoman Syrian Druze?

There is a dispute above regarding the POV of the page name. Instead of listing here only the Syrian towns and villages destroyed by Israel, we could expand the page content and also list the 380 Ottoman Syrian Christian villages destroyed by Ottoman Syrian Druze and Muslims during the 1860 Lebanon conflict, renaming the page Destroyed Syrian towns and villages. Chesdovi (talk) 13:37, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Why should we conflate these events that were more than a century apart and which differ in both geographic scope and historical background? I don't see why we should confuse these issues - unless such confusion is precisely what Chesdovi seeks. Huon (talk) 14:23, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

What's the confusion? The common denominator here is destroyed villages. That is the notable subject matter. When destruction took place & where exactly they are located can be clarified within the page itself; unless some editors want a prolifiration of articles soley appertaining to the Modern Middle East conflict? Or find the fact that Israel was the culprit bears more notability... Chesdovi (talk) 14:51, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Then why not create List of destroyed towns and villages? Because that would obviously become unmaintainably large. Sorting by geography and by cause of destruction seems the obvious way - if your proposed list of destroyed towns and villages in Syria is to be of any value whatsoever (never mind that some of the villages destroyed in the Lebanon conflict probably are in Lebanon, not Syria), it would have to be sorted in just such a way anyway, and the subset of villages destroyed by Israel seems large enough to justify being split off. Do we by now know any of the villages destroyed in 1860? If you really are that interested in the 1860 destructions, I suggest creating List of villages destroyed in the 1860 Lebanon conflict and sourcing that - but merging them here is a useless conflation of unrelated incidents. Huon (talk) 15:28, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

discussion of references

Footnote #1 is a paper by Uri Davis with the disclaimer "Views and interpretations in this paper are those of the author and should not be attributed to the Centre for Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies or the University of Durham." Is Uri Davis a RS? Stellarkid (talk) 22:08, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The only info used from that source is from chapter two were the info is collected from the 1965-1966 statical data of the Syrian Arab Republic, and is not a view or an interpretation.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:34, 9 November 2009 (UTC)#

Uri Davis is a reputed academic, with appointments at the Universities of Bradford, Durham and Exeter. Of course he is a reliable source. RolandR 22:43, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

He is an activist. His WP bio says : "A member of Fatah since 1984, he was elected to the Revolutionary Council for the Palestinian party in 2009." Somehow that wouldn't seem to me to qualify on the face of it. Stellarkid (talk) 02:58, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Thousands of academics are members of political parties. This does not, in itself, invalidate their academic work. Since these universities employed, and in some cases continue to employ, Davis, thewy must be satisfied with his academic credentials, regardless of his political positions. That should be enough for us; don't try to institute a witch-hunt. RolandR 08:37, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

That this paper - despite being from 1983 - has not been published in a peer reviewed academic journal raises some red flags, in particular given that Uri Davis is not only an academic, but also an activist with some rather unusual political affiliations. In general the references here are something that should be worked on very soon, as at the moment we have only partisan sources and no sources that we would without any doubts classify as reliable. Pantherskin (talk) 10:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Read above, The only info used from that source is from chapter two were the info is collected from the 1965-1966 statical data of the Syrian Arab Republic.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:34, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Different accounts on whether Golan inhabitants were forcefully expelled or whether they fled (1997-2002) Stellarkid (talk) 03:22, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I suspect many of the so-called Syrian villages on this list are a fabrication. Ad-dananir, for example, is in Jordan. See [[4]]--Gilabrand (talk) 04:34, 10 November 2009 (UTC)Uweinat seems to be a mountain in Libya. See here [5]. Other names, like Qtua sh ali, Amert Lferj and Kreij al-wawi seem to be made up. --Gilabrand (talk) 05:58, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Many places in the Arab world, and the rest of the world have the same name. There are 15-20 towns in USA only that have the name "Lebanon". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:23, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I have a map from 1943 that shows a majority of the places in the list, plus some and minus some. To determine what was there in 1967 is seriously difficult. A few times villages in exactly the same place seem to have changed names, is there a reason for that? Zero^talk 01:22, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Village locater

User Duae Quartunciae just posted this link at another article: http://www.fallingrain.com/world/SY/3/

I have only taken a quick look but it finds several of the villages that are in the golan-marsad.org link, for example:

http://www.fallingrain.com/world/SY/3/Dayr_Siras.html

http://www.fallingrain.com/world/SY/3/Kafr_Naffakh.html

http://www.fallingrain.com/world/SY/3/Jubbata_az_Zayt.html

http://www.fallingrain.com/world/SY/3/Al_Farj.html

http://www.fallingrain.com/world/SY/3/Dabburah.html --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:19, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Even if we would assume that fallingrain is a realiable source all this establishes is that there are geographic locations with these names - whether they are villages, farms, geographical landmarks or just some coordinates we don't know. Pantherskin (talk) 19:47, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

We may still use fallingrain to get coordinates for the villages we know about from other sources - unless there's reason to suspect that their coordinates are actually wrong. Huon (talk) 19:56, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think this could be a really useful resource. I have no idea how reliable it is or where the information comes from; but it works world wide and gives easy ways to crosscheck by identifying other places nearby, spelling variants, and related wikipedia articles. A resource like this can help us all in the background work we do as editors to help track down good reliable sources.

As a general related comment... note how this page refers back to wikipedia, apparently automatically! There are many pages around the web that do this. I believe it is incumbent on us, therefore, to be a bit careful as we update articles to take a bit of time to check that information really is accurate. Look for a couple of references. And beware also the spurious mutually confirming loops that can occur when bad information gets into wikipedia, then gets picked up by some other external source of some kind, which then in turn is used as a justification for the original insertion in wikipedia! This can happen surprisingly quickly, and there are a number of cases in widely disparate topics. I may write a wikipedia essay about it some time, unless someone has done it already. —Duae Quartunciae (talk · cont) 01:38, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus. The discussion here predates the closure of the recent AFD, so it is not clear that a further rename would have consensus. Aervanath (talk) 05:12, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

List of Syrian towns and villages destroyed by Israel → List of Syrian towns and villages depopulated by Israel — To remove potential POV and standardize per existing articles such as List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus and List of villages depopulated during the Arab-Israeli conflict. nsaum75 ^¡שיחת! 19:10, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Discussion

The article should be renamed and moved to List of Syrian towns and villages depopulated by Israel due to potential POV in the title name and to conform to the names of similar articles ie: List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus and List of villages depopulated during the Arab-Israeli conflict. --nsaum75 ^¡שיחת! 19:13, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Support. The current title is POV and chosen intentionally to push a political agenda. Furthermore, it is not a list.--Gilabrand (talk) 19:37, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Its a list, so please do not ad anything else that has nothing to do with the article topic, as you did.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:15, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but it is NOT a list, and it wasn't, long before I got there. Don't tell me what to add or not to add, SupremeDeliciousness. The whole article deserves to be speedily deleted. It is based on falsehoods, such as the claim that Quneitra was destroyed by Israel. On October 21, 1973, for example, the Times reported that Quneitra was "a bombed-out military town the Syrians lost to the Israelis ." --Gilabrand (talk) 20:42, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

This is your own opinion. I have created this list, now please do not transform it into something else, there are over 100 villages in this list. If you do not want to contribute to this list then maybe you shouldn't edit it.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:45, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Oppose. Where is the POV? All the towns and villages in the article were destroyed by Israel. This article can not be compared to List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus because some of those city's were taken over and still exist today like Ashkelon and Beersheba for example. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:40, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

If they exist today how can you say they have been "destroyed"? Stellarkid (talk) 20:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

When did I say that Ashkelon and Bersheeba were destroyed? You have confused the Syrian list with the Palestinian list. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:34, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Support. Make it consistent with other article titles, and get rid of the anti-Israel bias. --99.253.230.182 (talk) 21:35, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Support per 99.253.230.182 and agree with Gilabrand that a speedy delete would be appropriate. Stellarkid (talk) 21:50, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Oppose The towns and villages have indeed been destroyed by Israel. They existed before they were occupied in 1967, and they no longer exist, while their inhabitants live, for the most part, elsewhere in Syria following their expulsion. The fact that another article is possibly misnamed is no reason to misname this one too. Regarding Quneitra, I saw a film many years ago which established beyond doubt that it was still standing for many years after 1967, but was deliberately destroyed by Israel before a disengagement agreement. I will see if I can locate this. The unspecified Times report may be a reliable source that Quneitra was "bombed-out" in 1973, or at the time when the article was written; but it tells us nothing about its status in 1967. RolandR 22:51, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

oppose rename of article be no more than attempt to deny arab culture and promote zionist propaganda that seek to discredit horrible genocide and other atrocity commit by israeli government. in fact some one should change change name of other two article mentioned by nsaum that say "depopulate". no thing "depopulate" about them, they savagely destroy at hand of brutal israel government! Ani medjool (talk) 23:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment It would be helpful if reliable sources were cited by either side in this argument, particularly for the myriad towns and villages other than Quneitra. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 00:26, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Sources: http://www.golan-marsad.org/pdfs/Israeli_Settlements.pdf http://www.golan-marsad.org/pdfs/Report-_Separated_Families.pdf http://www.badil.org/en/documents/category/33-ongoing-displacement?download=586%3Amarsad-israel-s-gross-violations-of-international-law-in-the-occupied-syrian-golan the list in the article is not perfect, but I will try to fix it tomorrow. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:48, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment You seem to have ignored the "reliable" part of "reliable sources". And of course, we have ani medjool joining in here with some more of his bullshit to top it all off. 99.253.230.182 (talk) 02:07, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

oppose. "Depopulate" and "destroy" are synonymous (by mutual implication) in the case of towns. Therefore, the only question is which one is a more common English word, and clearly "destroy" wins. Homunq (talk) 04:25, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

To destroy a village is to physically destroy its buildings, whereas depopulation means to empty a village of its previous residents. While the the destruction of a village almost always results in its depopulation, depopulation may be the result of many other causes, and the two are hardly synonymous. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 04:49, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Support. The existing title is tendentious. It prejudges and presents a conclusion at the outset, one that the discussion here demonstrates is far from clear-cut and neutral. This is not the first time S.D. has originated an article with a tendentious title (the previous one was speedily deleted). Dump the strongly biased title; better yet, delete the article. The same, of course, goes for the closely-related Template:Syrian towns and villages destroyed by Israel. Hertz1888 (talk) 05:36, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Support Name change to List of villages depopulated during the Arab-Israeli conflict. Off2riorob (talk) 16:38, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

*Support as the new title is less POV and more accurate given that not all village were destroyed. And I agree that if no reliable sources can be found soon this article should be deleted, but for the time being a tag would suffice. Pantherskin (talk) 16:53, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Support, but change to List of Syrian towns and villages abandoned during the 1967 war as this most accurately reflects what the only reliable source (Aron Shai, "The Fate of Abandoned Arab Village in Israel", 1965-1969, History & Memory, 2006) has to say about the village (i.e. that the villages were abandoned first, and the remains of some of them were subsequently demolished). Pantherskin (talk) 05:50, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Oppose As far as I know, all of the Syrian towns and villages depopulated in 1967 were also destroyed. I see no reason why this salient fact should not be mentioned. Tiamut^talk 18:06, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

PS. Baruch Kimmerling writes Israel conquered the territory [... and expelled about 80,000 Syrian Arab peasants before completely levelling almost 130 villages]. Tiamut^talk 18:10, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Support. Vast majority of this list is unreferenced - either OR or pure speculation? Even for the few purportedly substantiated instances, this list provides no context, is clearly being used to push a propagandist POV and is inherently un-encyclopedic - can put the information for which appropriate reliable sources exist in the relevant existing article about the Arab-Israeli conflict.Chefallen (talk) 05:28, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

It depends If Roland finds his reliable source stating that they have all been systematically destroyed, then I would oppose the move. If not, then it may be better to move because there may be some still standing and Wdepopulated" would then be more acccurate.

The report cited by Supreme Deliciousness below goes a long way towards establishing this. It is written by a senior lecturer at the National University of Ireland, Galway and is extensively footnoted. It should be regarded as a reliable source. I hope to find some other sources; one problem is that the Golan Heights have not received a fraction of the interest and study devoted to the West Bank and Gaza. RolandR 15:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Okay it says that all apart from the five named villages were destroyed and has a list at the end. So Oppose.--Peter cohen (talk) 17:20, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes what Peter cohen say. Even though five village not all destroy, most villlage be destroy by israeli government and those few remain be esentially destroy because they no longer the arab and muslim community that they be founded as; they now be israeli and jew community. So all village be destroy either physical or de facto. In survive community, way of life be destroy, history be destroy, family be destroy, so essence village be destroy. That why destroy be term to use not depopulate. Ani medjool (talk)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Cause of destruction, size of list

I'm reposting some things I put on the AfD page. The academic paper "The Fate of Abandoned Arab Villages, 1965-1969" by Aron Shai (History & Memory - Volume 18, Number 2, Fall/Winter 2006, pp. 86-106) quotes internal documents from the Israeli project to demolish the majority of the Golan villages. The paper discusses the general situation, not individual villages, but since some people expressed doubt that Israel was responsible for the destruction, I'll quote a little.

"As the pace of the surveys increased in the West Bank, widespread operations also began on the Golan Heights, which had been captured from Syria during the war (figure 7). Dan Urman, whose official title was Head of Surveying and Demolition Supervision for the Golan Heights, was in charge of this task. Urman submitted a list of 127 villages for demolition to his bosses. ... The demolitions were executed by contractors hired for the job. Financial arrangements and coordination with the ILA and the army were recorded in detail. Davidson commissioned surveys and demolition supervision from the IASS. Thus, for example, in a letter dated 15 May 1968, he wrote to Ze'ev Yavin: 'Further to our meeting, this is to inform you that within a few days we will start demolishing about 90 abandoned villages on the Golan Heights (see attached list).'"

And so forth, all of it carefully cited to the Israeli archives. Unfortunately Shai does not provide either list. Comparing the numbers in those quotations to the size of our list suggests it is a fair starting approximation to the truth. Getting it precisely right is a difficult exercise. Zero^talk 01:40, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a link to this? The only thing I can see is this: "In spring 1965 the Israel Land Administration (ILA) initiated the demolition of houses in Arab villages that had been abandoned during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, a project that was subsequently extended to the territories occupied by Israel in the June 1967 war. The Israel Archaeological Survey Society (IASS) was for all practical purposes employed by the ILA in its efforts to clear the country of deserted villages. Its officials surveyed the villages intended for destruction, since the law required their authorization before the buildings could be demolished. The article reveals that (1) most of the abandoned Arab villages disappeared as a result of a clear plan originating with the ILA; (2) the demolition of houses in the Latrun enclave and the Golan Heights immediately after the June 1967 war was to a great extent a continuation of the pre-1967 operation" [6] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:36, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can see, it is only available by paid subscription. Send me email. Zero^talk 12:00, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

But sources do not have be viewable for all for them to be in articles? right? So we can ad it to the article.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:01, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Academic journals are certainly allowed even if they are not online at all. But this article is a "list of" article so I'm not sure if much text is appropriate. This is something that can be discussed. Zero^talk 21:24, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Demolished is one thing, abandoned is another thing. I read that before the 1967 war the Syrian army evacuated civilians from the Golan Heights area. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:20, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

The point is that 99% of this article is based on a POV source written from a vicious, anti-Israel perspective with a very clear bias. As such it does not belong here, and the "information" on this page remains unsourced, and hence eminently deletable.--Gilabrand (talk) 07:57, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Tlaas statement

A letter to the New York Times is not a reliable source, and it's not clear why the statement is relevant to this article (admittedly, it hasn't really been established what this article is about). Adding more unreliable material to an article consisting solely of unreliable material doesn't help matters. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 13:51, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Removal that Israel destroyed the villages

User Jalapenos do exist has twice now removed that Israel destroyed the villages: [7][8]

He changes the text to "The Arab Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Golan claims that" and removes other sources.

Although there are now 3 sources saying the same thing:

1. "The Fate of Abandoned Arab Villages, 1965-1969" by Aron Shai (History & Memory - Volume 18, Number 2, Fall/Winter 2006, pp. 86-106) "As the pace of the surveys increased in the West Bank, widespread operations also began on the Golan Heights, which had been captured from Syria during the war (figure 7). Dan Urman, whose official title was Head of Surveying and Demolition Supervision for the Golan Heights, was in charge of this task. Urman submitted a list of 127 villages for demolition to his bosses. ... The demolitions were executed by contractors hired for the job. Financial arrangements and coordination with the ILA and the army were recorded in detail. Davidson commissioned surveys and demolition supervision from the IASS. Thus, for example, in a letter dated 15 May 1968, he wrote to Ze'ev Yavin: 'Further to our meeting, this is to inform you that within a few days we will start demolishing about 90 abandoned villages on the Golan Heights (see attached list).

2. Politicide: Ariel Sharon's war against the Palestinians "before completely leveling almost 130 villages"

3. Murphy, R.; Gannon, D. (2008), "Changing the Landscape: Israel’s Gross Violations of International Law in the Occupied Syrian Golan", Al Marsad, the Arab Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Golan "the Israeli military were, for the most part, unopposed in their administration of the newly occupied territory and began a widespread campaign that destroyed numerous villages and farms. The only villages to escape the campaign of destruction were Majdal Shams, Masa’da, Bqa’atha, ‘Ein Qinyeh, and Al-Ghajar, five small villages in the valley of Mount Hermon."

Not one single source has been provided debunking that Israel destroyed these villages.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:12, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

In fact it is easy to find several other quality sources saying the same thing. The removal of Shai's paper is especially mysterious; Jalapenos, please explain yourself. Zero^talk 13:21, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

SD, Please read WP:V and WP:RS. The onus is on you to provide reliable sources for claims you add to the article. Sources #2 and #3 are not reliable, and source #1 does not support the claim (and was not used to source it). Zero, if you find a reliable source supporting the claim, I will not contest it. I'm afraid your argument that such sources are "easy to find" doesn't suffice; one has to actually be produced. And I didn't remove Shai's paper. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 13:26, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

It is not up to you to decide what is reliable sources or not, the three sources provided are reliable. And the first source clearly says that Israel destroyed the villages. And it was indeed used to source it. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:33, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

No, it's up to WP:RS to decide, and it says that sources should have "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", which neither the Arab Center for Human Rights nor Verso Books do. The first source does not support the claim, at least not in the quote you provided. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 13:42, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

This is a bit ridiculous. The scholarly source was explicitly removed as "not reliable". And while it may not support that all but five villages were destroyed, it does support that 127 villages were proposed to be destroyed and that they actually began destruction on about 90 of them. Unless someone wants to claim that while they were about to start, they suddenly felt remorse and canceled the planned demolitions? I'll rewrite the sentence so that it actually says what the source (whose number closely coincides with that given by Politicide) supports.

Now that I checked Verso Books, I also fail to see why they're considered unreliable. Our article mentions three facts: Founded by the staff of New Left Review, published the thinkers of the Frankfurt school, books distributed in the U.S. by W. W. Norton. Unless those on the left are automatically unreliable, I see no indication whatsoever of unreliability. Huon (talk) 16:10, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I have no problem with using the Shai paper for claims that the Shai paper makes. As for Verso Books, there has to be an indication that the publishing company is reliable. Since it's a non-academic and self-proclaimed radical and partisan organization, one is unlikely to be found, but you can go ahead and try if you want. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 16:49, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there is any real reliability problem with any of the sources, or any extraordinary or surprising claim made. Kimmerling was a very well known and esteemed scholar. Verso is a well-known commercial publisher with a perfectly good reputation, but that is not necessary; Kimmerling's reputation is more than enough to consider the book a reliable source. The Murphy & Gannon report can rest on the credentials of the authors, and the Shai paper was published in an academic journal. I suggest taking it to RS/N.John Z (talk) 19:56, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Clashes

The lede currently states: 80 percent of these clashes were deliberately provoked by the Israelis. Which clashes is this quote referring to? it does not seem to fit in with the previous text. Shlomke (talk) 19:02, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

The Moshe Dayan article gives the complete quote. According to him, the Israelis deliberately provoked the Syrians to fire on tractors in the demilitarized zone and then responded with artillery and air strikes. I assume Dayan's 80% figure includes the attacks on civilians the Jewish Virtual Library speaks of; I don't think Dayan and the JVL speak of completely different sets of incidents. Personally I don't think either the attacks on civilians or Dayan's claim belong here, but putting in one but not the other clearly fails NPOV. Huon (talk) 19:23, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree, we should get rid of this and be wary of coatracking.John Z (talk) 20:06, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Jewishlibrary is a pro-israeli website. The text from that webiste has no connection to the article topic which is: Former Syrian towns and villages destroyed by Israel.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:19, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

"Look, it's possible to talk in terms of 'the Syrians are bastards, you have to get them, and this is the right time,' and other such talk, but that is not policy, You don't strike at the enemy because he is a bastard, but because he threatens you. And the Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us." "After all, I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was." "The kibbutzim there saw land that was good for agriculture," "And you must remember, this was a time in which agricultural land was considered the most important and valuable thing." "Of course they wanted the Syrians to get out of their face. They suffered a lot because of the Syrians. Look, as I said before, they were sitting in the kibbutzim and they worked the land and had kids and lived there and wanted to live there. The Syrians across from them were soldiers who fired at them, and of course they didn't like it." "But I can tell you with absolute confidence, the delegation that came to persuade Eshkol to take the heights was not thinking of these things. They were thinking about the heights' land. Listen, I'm a farmer, too. After all, I'm from Nahalal, not from Tel Aviv, and I know about it. I saw them, and I spoke to them. They didn't even try to hide their greed for that land." http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/11/world/general-s-words-shed-a-new-light-on-the-golan.html?pagewanted=1 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:11, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Since nobody objected to removal of mention of those pre-1967 incidents, I'll do it. Probably one of the WP:POINT violations Gilabrand admitted here. Huon (talk) 20:37, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Untitled

Another discussion about some of the disputed matters in this talk page, is now at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive579#User Gilbrand renaming article without consensus.; please do not edit there any more, as it is in a talk archive page. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 20:53, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Please let us remove

everything that has no connection to the article topic. We don't have to go through the six day war in the list. People can click on that link and read about it. The list is about former Syrian towns and villages in the Golan destroyed by Israel. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:21, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that (most of) the current expansion of the list into an article is a bad idea. There is more information on the villages than just a bare list of names, and we should probably expand it. For example, one of our sources had a paragraph on the pre-1967 economy. The six day war also merits mention and an explanation of its relevance to these villages, and I don't think we currently have too much of that. Of course, information not related to the Golan Heights villages - such as Hama, the Syrian soldier decoration Gilabrand added, or the Dead Cities, should be removed on sight. Huon (talk) 21:16, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

You are right, I'm looking at the current version [9] and most looks good and relevant to the subject.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:42, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes all article content not involve with destruction of village must be remove. Editor need to find more source to back up destroy in title so pro israel editor cannot come up with excuse to keep name that deny destruction. Ani medjool (talk)

Villages of Adaniyeh and Asheh; destroyed by Syria?

It seems from the link I provided above that Adaniyeh and Asheh were destroyed too, probablyby Syria. Can this be confirmed please. Chesdovi (talk) 01:36, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

"Probably by Syria" is a rather bold assertion when the source says "destroyed in the 1967 war". I don't think the Syrians had any reason whatsoever to deliberately destroy their own willages during the war (unlike Hama, there was no revolt going on). Apparently these two villages also weren't part of Israel's organized effort at destruction. Thus, "collateral damage", that is, accidental destruction during combat operations, seems a more likely cause of destruction, and since that "destroyed in the 1967 war" quote is the only reference Google found for these two villages (with all mentions originating from the IDMC), I don't think we can assign blame exclusively to one side or the other. Huon (talk) 09:35, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Whatever the case, these were "Pre-1967" villages that should be listed. As the page name now does not stipulate Israel, I will ahead add them. Thanks. Chesdovi (talk) 13:04, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Murray-Gannon source

Pantherskin tagged the Murray-Gannon PDF as "maybe unreliable" here. He didn't explain his reasons, but Jalapenos do exist raised the same issue at WP:ANI. According to WP:SPS, self-published sources (what this amounts to) are permissible when "produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications". Ray Murray clearly qualifies; he's a senior lecturer in law at the National University of Ireland, Galway, with publications in scholarly journals on the subject of conflict resolution and "Contemporary Challenges to the Implementation of International Humanitarian Law". So unless there are objections, I'll remove the tag shortly. Huon (talk) 01:48, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

No, I explained above and during the AFD why this source should not be considered a reliable source. It is published by a lobby-group and not by Ray Murphy, and that raises several red flags due to obvious conflict of interest the lobby group when it comes to reporting facts versus reporting what supports the mission of the group. Furthermore WP:SPS also clearly says that "caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so". Please find independent and reliable sources for this article, I see that some progress has been made, but we still have not what should have been there right from the start. Pantherskin (talk) 06:33, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, there is disagreement on this point. I essentially agree with Huon. But it is not self-published by the usual definitions, but rather published by an obscure NGO. IMHO, this neither adds to nor detracts from reliability. The credentials of the authors give it reliability. The study makes no surprising claims and its language, arguments and conclusions are entirely standard and mainstream; what reason is there to think it is inventing the names of the villages, which is what it is being used for? The names are cited to an Israeli Military Order, n.b.; quite arguably that is the source, and we need only cite that, obviously reliable, and say where we got it. On another source, the late Baruch Kimmerling was a first rate scholar, a world authority in his field, and a mensch, doubting his factual reliability borders on the absurd. As I noted above, WP:RS/N is the place for such questions.John Z (talk) 10:11, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I have taken it to the noticeboard for more community input. Huon (talk) 14:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The fact is that the list of villages in the golan-marsad link [[10]]is also confirmed in a separate source which lists almost all the same villages [11] and a third site finds the villages in the golan-marsad document [12] which gives us no reason to doubt the truthiness of the golan-marsad document.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:36, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The list in the golan-marsad link is not written by the Arab Center for human rights but its a translated document: Appendix 1: Military Order 39, August 27 1967 from the Israeli Defence Forces.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:56, 20 November 2009 (UTC)