Talk:Syd Puddefoot

Several potential inaccuracies

The centenary edition of West Ham United Who's Who 1895-1995 (authors Tony Hogg & Tony McDonald) has a reasonably lengthy piece on Puddefoot, which contradicts this article more than once, as do other wiki pages.

1) Following the link to Victory Internationals, that page says that SP scored once in a 2-2 draw with Scotland on 26/4/19, twice in a 4-3 win against the same on 3/5/19, and once against Wales in a 2-1 defeat on 11/10/19. So he played in 3 VI's, rather than 2, which the text appears to imply. It is unclear from the VI page whether the post-WWI games are considered full internationals or not.

2) His senior career stats tally with the Who's Who entry for Southern Lge & Lge numbers in the Who's Who. However, it ignores 14 Cup matches (12 goals) - I don't know how wiki normally treats cup appearances in respect of senior stats.

3) The Who's Who explicitly says "he won three MORE England caps {my capitals} in 1926 (v. Scotland at Old Trafford and Northern Ireland, twice)". This implies that the VI's are considered full internationals. Either way, his cap total should seemingly either be 3 or 6, depending on the status of the VI's.

4) The text & the stats conflict regarding his second spell as a WH player & his managerial appointments. According to Who's Who, he joined Fenerbahce in 1933, Galatasaray in '34, and returned to England as manager of Northampton in Mar '35. He then returned to Turkey in Mar '37 (although it doesn't say in what capacity or with whom), and remained there until the outbreak of WWII.

Regards,

86.181.232.88 (talk) 22:32, 12 September 2017 (UTC) Rædwulf (non-member)

I believe I've addressed these issues in my recent update. Nzd (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

A more detailed reply:

1) This has been amended. The VIs did not count as caps.

2) Infobox stats are for domestic league only (not cup competitions). I'd like to add a career stats table, which would allow for this detail, but we have too much missing information on his other clubs at the moment.

3) I don't know where they've got this from. I've not seen it anywhere else. We have dates for two British Home Championship games (against NI and Scotland, which did count as caps) which are widely published.

4) Yup, per below. Changed now. Not sure about the bit about going back to Turkey though. I have the 1895-2005 edition of Whos Who and it doesn't mention that at all. It seems they've gone from one version of wrong to another, given that my one says he moved from Turkey to Northampton Town in 1937..

Nzd (talk) 13:56, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Notes on my October 2017 update

This is an outline of my recent update. I think I've listed anything that might be considered contentious. I've signed each section so people can comment directly underneath any particular issue.

Birth/death

I've changed place of birth from Bow to Limehouse. The so-called reliable sources are split roughly 50/50 between the two but as England Football Online claim Ancestry as a source that's hopefully more accurate. The place of death is also the subject of disagreement in the sources. EFO have an address in Southend-on-Sea, but say the death was registered in Rochford. I've changed this to Essex in the infobox and added a note. Nzd (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Update The 1911 Census lists the birthplace as Limehouse, see "Sydney & Leonard Puddefoot". Falkirk Football Historian. 1 September 2015. (quite possibly the same document that EFL found on Ancestry). Nzd (talk) 22:59, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

First spotted

The Who's Who and War Hammers books differ in their accounts of whether it was actually Syd King or Charlie Paynter that spotted Puddefoot while playing for London Juniors. I'm personally more inclined to believe the former as it's an official publication, but I've changed the wording around as it's a small detail. Nzd (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Joined WH

The year of registration differs depending on what you read. The EFO assertion that he "signed amateur forms with West Ham United FC during 1913, he signed professionally in the following season" is probably not correct. The Who's Who dates his first spell as 1913-22 but they might just be going on appearances. His first (competitive) game for the club was certainly 1 March 1913. Most agree that he'd signed pro forms by the beginning of the 1913-14 season so that's what I've put and I've left the the date in the infobox as 1912 as that's what it says in both Essential History and War Hammers. Nzd (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

WWI

I'm a bit confused about the chronology during WWI. War Hammers says that he wasn't called up until late on and "as such was able to give a good proportion of his spare time to the West Ham cause". EFO says "According to his WWI Service Records (Royal Fusiliers), Sidney was living at 69 Vicarage Road in East Ham on 10 December 1915. He had syphilis from January 1917 until August 1918, he was hospitalized for the last two months. He was discharged from the army thereafter."

• WWI: 28 July 1914 – 11 November 1918
• London Combination appearances: 04 Sep 1915 - 21 Apr 1919

I have yet to find dates for his call-up or his Falkirk guest appearances. The Scottish league continued "between 1914 and 1918 and the presence of an England international in Stirlingshire had not gone unnoticed by the directors of Falkirk" (according to The Scotsman)

I've kept it vague for now but will try to fill in the gaps with some further research. Nzd (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Falkirk

I've noticed that some sources (mainly on the Falkirk side) put the figure as £5500. However, I've not mentioned this as all the newspaper sources and official (West Ham, at least) publications have the £5000 figure.

The Scotsman say that "his younger brother Len moved to Falkirk for a month’s trial at the start of the 1922-23 season". This goes against other sources, which state that the move was part of the deal. I have issues with Len's story, which I'll write up once I've finished with this. I'm glossing over this contradiction for now.

I've added appearance stats per EFO but every other source (including The Scotsman and War Hammers) puts his goal tally at 45 goals. I haven't found a definitive breakdown (how lucky we WH fans are to have the excellent West Ham Stats site!). Nzd (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Update I've reworked the Len Puddefoot article with the information I have (which isn't much) and noted the changes on the talk page. Nzd (talk) 01:19, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Blackburn

Stats per War Hammers. The only online rererence I've found is DT92, which shows different stats. I've gone with the published source. Nzd (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Coaching career

I've changed the dates in the infobox. I'm fairly sure these are correct. Some of the dates previously weren't even possible. It had him coaching at Fenerbahçe while he was still playing for WH, and the Northampton Town dates (which I think I sourced from Who's Who) didn't fit with what it says in the club's article (see also: List of Northampton Town F.C. managers). War Hammers tells us that records show him at Galatasaray until 1936, and that he managed Gala and Northampton town concurrently for a time. However, the list of Galatasaray S.K. managers has Syd's reign as Jan 1933 - Sep 1934 and this appears to be referenced well enough. The gap would fit with the Times account that "his wife Lillian became pregnant in 1934 and they returned to Britain for the birth". Maybe they kept him on the books in some capacity. Who knows?

I've added the manager stats based on what is on the articles linked above. There is some discrepancy with the refs so I've put notes on the two talk pages asking for clarification (here and here). Nzd (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Finally

I haven't mentioned it in the article, but War Hammers notes family ties with Alan Sealey. It notes that Syd's aunt is Louise Sealey, who is related to Alan. It doesn't state how they are related though. I think that's all for now. Nzd (talk) 15:37, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Joining Falkirk?

There is mention that the transfer fee was raised by "conscription". Do you mean "subscription"?46.7.195.132 (talk) 22:02, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, you're probably right. I merely used the term that was used in the reference, but I agree it sounds a bit wrong. I've reworked it, "fund" is probably most explicit. Thanks, Nzd (talk) 22:26, 28 January 2018 (UTC)