Talk:Sweating sickness

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 August 2020 and 11 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): 19rtrudkin, Ebs5kp. Peer reviewers: Rosyposy01, Myokgy, ItsHelix.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 10:33, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 August 2020 and 20 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): DIGO0399.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 10:33, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

The

The article states no rash was visible, but the article in the BBC link provided says there was a rash associated with the disease.--Anchoress 00:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Reply: Any BBC reference indicating there is a rash associated with the sweating sickness is incorrect. Careful review of all medical historical literature is clear--the sweating sicking was rapid in onset, with symptoms consisting of malaise, fatigue, abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, diaphoresis (excessive sweating), and a foul, putrid vapor (breath), consistent with a pulmonary infection. No historical source cited indicates that a rash was in any way a common component of this disease. Indeed, this distinction has been used by various medical historians to discount a number of potential causes of sweating sickness that have a rash as a predominant feature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.137.183 (talk • contribs) 03:07, 17 May 2007

(opinion)

According to the article the disease affected the wealthy more than the poor, and didn't affect infants or children. The extremely short period between onset of symptoms and death would suggest an infection other than person to person. Survivors built up no immunity, and were sometimes stricken multiple times. The disease was confined to the UK and disappeared completely and forever, despite survivors not building up any immunity. These characteristics sound more like cases of mass poisoning than an infectious disease. Perhaps a toxin producing yeast in the wine production chain? --Mzzl (talk) 12:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this was mass poisoning. Symptoms sound quite similar (ie identical) to scopolamine poisoning. This is not 100% fatal, however. Seems silly to define this as a disease, much less a virus.~anon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.71.165.105 (talk) 20:11, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, 75. I'm sure we can all rest easy in our beds knowing that a disease that has puzzled the medical profession for centuries has been solved by an anonymous contributor to an online encyclopaedia. I suppose apart from the absence of confusion, agitation, rambling speech, hallucinations, paranoid behaviours, and delusions it could well be Scopolamine poisoning.

Mzzl: The article does not say it affected the rich more than the poor; it mentions eleven well-off people (out of several thousand in total) affected in 1485. Nor did it leave children unaffected; the "unusual plague" Freeman mentions did that. Nor was it confined to the British Isles; the 1528 outbreak was recorded across Northern Europe. Still, the poisoning idea is interesting; do you have any sources that suggest it? Moonraker12 (talk) 11:03, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

The marxist and Communist propaganda alwas spoke about the negative effects of colonization, native Amerindians that died because of smallpox etc. There's much less talk about the diseases brought from the Americas and the Far East to Europe. This sweating disease very much resembles with the Spanish flu. Or it may be a smallpox variant with mutated DNA brought back from America. Who knows... Recently, the scientists examined some human remnants related to Spanish flue (conserved in the Spitzbergen Island, I think, but also skeletons of people died of the Black Plague. Maybe the same tests would be needed in this particular case, too.. Mazarin07 (talk) 09:38, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Immunity or no immunity?

The article suggests that a bout with the sweating sickness seemed to offer no immunity and that a person could suffer with it several times (Characteristics). Later, it suggests that the fact that French mercenaries appeared to be immune to it meant it may have originated with them or in France (Cause). Another area notes that the sickness never appeared in France (1528).

Can we get these to all agree? 07:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Egthegreat (talk • contribs)

Characteristics

...In the final stages, there was either general exhaustion and collapse, or an irresistible urge to sleep, which was thought[by whom?] to be fatal if the patient was permitted to give way to it...

the by whom is by Caius, whose description of the disease is being quoted,refer to

pp186 The Encyclopaedia Britannica : a dictionary of arts, sciences, literature and general information (c1910-1922) http://www.archive.org/details/encyclopaediabri26chisrich —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.251.203 (talk) 11:27, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, fixed. Graham87 14:27, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Causes section

I just added "citation needed" to the first two paragraphs under the "Causes" heading and removed two statements re: "this suggests." The author's conjectures are unencyclopedic. I plan on deleting these two paragraphs if adequate citations are not added. Lazr75 (talk) 03:49, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

WP:Death Assessment Commentary

The article was assessed C-class for lack of sufficient in-line citations.Boneyard90 (talk) 07:09, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

CFS

I removed the following: "Chronic fatigue syndrome has been suggested by Chaudhuria and Behan, based on a 1934 article of epidemic myalgia outbreaks that share clinical similarities with Bornholm disease." This has vbeeb tagged as a dead link for a while, and franklty, it's difficult to see how anyone could seriously suggest that this fast-acting fatal disease has any resemblance to CFS. Paul B (talk) 17:44, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

References

ICD code

It seems kind of strange to have a mysterious historical disease represented by a modern diagnostic/billing code. Does the ICD explicitly mention sweating sickness under it's "sweating fever" category? Is it WP:OR to make the link between the historical disease and the modern category?Plantdrew (talk) 01:48, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.183.192.219 (talk) 19:23, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Added redirect from sweating fever. WikiHannibal (talk) 18:20, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

New citation

Thought this might be useful as a citation. Bondegezou (talk) 18:44, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Why hasn't this citation been included in the article? Mcljlm (talk) 23:27, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

At the time Calais and abodes was NOT in France

It reads under the heading 16th centuary...

"In 1528, the disease reached epidemic...Cases of the disease were not known to occur in France (except in Calais) or Italy. It also emerged in Flanders and the Netherlands"

But Calais was NOT a part of France at the time. The Pale of Calais was English with MPs sent to Westminster. Furthermore, a much wider area far around the Pale of Calais was Dutch speaking. At the time spoken of, there were no cases of Sweat in France fullstop. There is no 'except in Calais' in was impossible, though one can see how Sweat came about in Calais - for it was English, and from this bit of 'English Flanders' how it went onto to other bits of Flanders/Netherlands.

Please be aware of French and Francophone nats spiking English language wikis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.223.127.247 (talk) 18:02, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. Graham87 03:44, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for acknowledging Graham, though I still feel your overwrite could do with a bit of a tweak. It reads:

'Cases of the disease were not known to occur in what is now France (except in the Pale of Calais, which was under English control) or Italy.'

It kind of 'reads' as if you are doing your best not to offend French pride. Whomever 'controlled' Calais and abodes before it was controlled by the English one has to acknowledge the area was Dutch speaking NOT French. The worthies may well of linga-franco-ed in French like worthies have and do in Latin, but without a shadow, the townsfolk of Calais spoke English and the population at large spoke historically spoke Dutch. You kind of make it sound like Calais was historically French-speaking and it's townsfolk French-speakers - this is utterly wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.223.127.247 (talk) 21:00, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

If people want that sort of detail, they can click on the "Pale of Calais" link; I don't see the point of providing it here in an article about a disease. Graham87 08:56, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Human Coronavirus NL63 first appeared in the late 1400s when sweating sickness began

One of the theories concerning what was sweating sickness, perhaps a coronavirus with similarities to SARS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2, although it involves more with sweating than pulmonary or respiratory stress. There are 4 human coronaviruses, 3 of them jumped species from bats or other mammals to humans in the last 1,000 years and 3 which was found in the 21st century (including MERS-CoV). The tendency for this coronavirus to be most found in Calais, Picardy and Artois in Northern France, although these can become pandemic when it first infects humans without previous immunity (COVID-19 works like this), unless the rate of contagious or infectious spread is lower for this one. The Nord-Pas-de-Calais region was like the last part of France to reported a case and hospitalizations in the COVID-19 pandemic when it reached France. Not sure the locals had previous immunity in their ancestries, but natural history (the 1889-90 Flu theorized to be the human coronavirus OC43 first entered humans) showed us viruses always jumped from animals to humans. 2605:E000:100D:C571:4C1D:EB7D:B365:D7B4 (talk) 03:49, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Breathlessness as a Symptom

The current symptoms section has no mention of breathlessness even though it is commonly associated with this disease. The following will be added to said section to provide more information. Proper citations will be added when this section is finalized.

"Thomas Forestier provided a written account of his own experiences with the sweating sickness in 1485. Forestier put great emphasis on the sudden breathlessness that is commonly associated with the final hours of those who had contracted this disease. Forestier claimed in an account written for other physicians that "loathsome vapors" had congregated around the heart and lungs. His observations point towards a pulmonary component of this disease that was previously unknown." 19rtrudkin (talk) 16:29, 9 October 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 19rtrudkin (talk • contribs) 16:28, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Final Outbreak Addition

I'll be adding information about the final outbreak including burial patterns, death rates, and timeline. Ebs5kp (talk) 17:24, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

New Additions To Symptoms and Transmission

I will be adding information in the symptoms section about how long the disease normally lasted. 19rtrudkin (talk) 17:41, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

A transmission section will also be added with new information regarding disease spread. 19rtrudkin (talk) 17:41, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

I will be adding more information to the transmission section. 19rtrudkin (talk) 08:29, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Fifteenth and Sixteenth Century Additions

I will be expanding on the information included in the fifteenth and sixteenth century outbreaks. This will include treatments, historical records, and demographic data concerning these outbreaks.Ebs5kp (talk) 22:42, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Caption of main image

The source of the image says that the person in the image (in bed) is "John, Duke of Normandy", which would mean John II of France, who lived from 1319 to 1364. The article, however, says that the disease "struck England and later continental Europe in a series of epidemics beginning in 1485". So if this is indeed John, Duke of Normandy/ John II of France, then the picture cannot relate to an incident of the sweating sickness.

I researched the image, and it does appear to be John, Duke of Normandy/ John II of France. The text on the image says "En ce meisme an environ mi·juing vint une tres grant maladie a moss· Jehan duc de Nor[]" (end of word in next line, not visible), meaning, "In this same year around may·june came a very big illness to John duke of Nor[]" Part of the text ("vint une tres grant maladie a moss· Jehan duc de Nor" coincides with a segment in the text below:

• "Nous aborderons successivement quelques exemples de processions, qui etaient organisees par la societe pendant la periode de crise. Le champ d’action des organisateurs des processions etait surtout la ville de Paris. Dans la periode du XIVe siecle et avant il n’y avait pas beaucoup de processions. Chacune durait seulement une journee. «Les Grandes Chronigues de France parlent tres rarement de processions))19. D’apres ces chroniques, la premiere [1] procession speciale pro rege a eu lieu en 1191. On demandait a Dieu la guerison du fils de Philippe Auguste. Ensuite [2], en 1244, la procession suppliait de rendre la sante a Louis IX. La troisieme [3], en 1335, quand «il vint une tres grant maladie a [messire (moss·)] Jehan duc de Normendie, ainsne filz du roy de France [...]. Adonques le roy et la royne si mistrent leur esperance en Nostre Seigneur, et firent faire prieres tant par les religieux comme par autre gens de l’Eglise, et furent faites processions par diverses eglises, et meismement entre les autres qui en l’eglise de monseigneur saint Denis furent faites, tout le convent ala par trois jours nuz piez a procession".

The text discusses religious processions (1, 2 and 3 indicated in bold, above) and prayers held to ask God for health/ healing for — respectively —, "the son of Philippe Auguste" in 1191, "Louis IX" in 1244 and John, Duke of Normandy, son of the king of France" in 1335. In the case of the latter, it also mentions that [the king and queen] had processions done at various churches, ... as well as the "church of our lord saint Denis". That would be a reference to the Church of Saint Denis in Paris. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 11:36, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

The image should be replaced, because whatever John died from, there's no evidence of any link to the disease outbreak which is the subject of this article.----Pontificalibus 11:42, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

RE observation on Saint Denis in above edit, John II died in London, but his body was returned to France and interred in the royal chambers of Saint Denis Basilica.

Thanks, Pontificalibus. You are right. I will wait for one or two more users' comments. Can you comment on the other images? Authur "may have died" from it; in the case of Henry and Charles Brandon, the sole source, Luminarium.org mentions here some its sources, but there are no direct citations for specific segments of text. All three articles list the subjects in the category "Deaths from sweating sickness"

Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 12:47, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

For the princes Henry and Charles, there is a contemporary source quoted further down the page - The Diary of Henry Machyn. I'll dig out a source for Arthur.----Pontificalibus 13:31, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Contagious or infectious?

> a mysterious and contagious disease

Is contagious really meant? Or should it be infectious?

Paul Magnussen (talk) 05:23, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Frequency of Picardy

The section on Picardy variant says the occurrences were strikingly high at 200 in 200 years. Maybe the dates given are incorrect. Timmytimtimmy (talk) 15:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC)