Talk:Surrealist cinema

Convert to list

Should this entirely unreferenced proseline article simply be converted to a list? Skomorokh ^incite 18:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Something drastic certainly needs to be done. As it stands, it requires major surgery to be brought into line with Wikipedia standards. I agree with the proposal. This, I assume, would require a page move to List of Surrealist films, yes? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 18:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oui. Skomorokh ^incite 19:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So, when do we get started? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 02:00, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Give it a few days so that others have a chance to object/reform the article? Skomorokh ^incite 02:03, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I am in no hurry, believe me... ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 03:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's now been more than a week. I think we should get started. The only change in the interim is an anonymous user adding more unreferenced and dubious information. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 04:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On it. Pile in! скоморохъ ^ѧ 04:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Federico Fellini

No?
--Jerome Potts (talk) 05:39, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure we could all contribute additional examples (Peter Greenaway?), but is this intended to be an exhaustive list? Or would it be a better idea to morph this toward a true article about surrealist film, instead of a list? 12.233.146.130 (talk) 19:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tarsem

Tarsem did The Cell and The Fall; would either of those count as surreal, I could see the cell not being so much, but I have strong feelings that The Fall should be included in the modern surreal film list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.91.38 (talk) 21:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Recent changes

There has been a dramatic expansion of this article in recent months, with a great many films, directors, and subcategories of "surrealistic" films being added. Now, while I do not object to this, in principle, most of these changes have been made by anonymous editors who offered no explanation for the additions, either here or in their edit summaries, and no references have been added. This is no good. I have begun the process of fixing some of the changes, including removing those items which do not seem appropriate. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 16:29, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Roy Andersson added

Hi there, I'm a Wikipedia-noob, so I hope, I'm doing this here correct... I added two very important directors: Roy Andersson from sweden and David Cronenberg; Cronenberg has done many surreal movies, like the adaption of the book "Naked Lunch" from William S. Burroughs, a book written completely on drugs (and also the movie is very weird) or the movie "Crash" in which crippled people have sex in damaged cars.

I wouldn't count Peter Greenaway a surrealistic filmmaker, not at all. Also Michel Gondry is questionable. Ever thought about Matthew Barney? I think what he does is more "art" than "movies" - what do you think? (Greetings from Elwood) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.168.121.118 (talk) 23:01, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Confused text with Fatasy/SF

I think that paragraphs at the top of the section "Modern films considered surrealist", showed cofused text between Fantasy/Sci-fi and Surrealism. For example, Hayao Miyazaki's most films are not surrealist works except Princess Mononoke. Instead of surrealism, they are fantasy genre films. By the way, I agree that Hideaki Anno's movie, The End of Evangelion is included in surrealism. -- Kookyunii (talk) 01:08, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In general, a lot of films added here are not, in any way, surrealist. The problem is that "surreal," and by extension "surrealistic," is a term with no clear meaning, due to years of misuse. You are correct, the films you mention are fantasies, but they are not surreal. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 01:39, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

paprika

should we include paprika? http://www.metacritic.com/film/titles/paprika —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArielGenesis (talk • contribs) 01:09, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, why would we? Nothing in that article to which you linked gives any indication this film is surrealist. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 01:37, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Aqua Teen Hunger Force & similar

I disagree on the decision to remove Aqua Teen Hunger Force from the list of surreal animation. I don't see how it fails to match the criteria of surrealism; going purely by the definition on the main page, "surprise, unexpected juxtapositions and non sequitor" are its bread and butter. It fits perfectly under the umbrella of surreal comedy, and as such I don't understand why it should not be mentioned on this page, along with similar shows such as Sealab 2021. 173.72.41.37 (talk) 19:59, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of modern films

I have removed the arbitrary lists of modern films from the article. Some of these entries are relevant for the topic, in how they represent the impact surrealism has had on film history, but they need to be presented within a (sourced) context, not just be listed at random. The vast majority of the entries however had pretty much nothing to do with surrealism, which is why I chose to remove them all. Anyone who plans to readd sections on surrealism beyond the original movement, please make sure that you provide a proper context, explain what the work's relation to surrealism is, and use reliable sources for those claims. Smetanahue (talk) 13:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So how do we categorize and/or describe El Topo by Alejandro Jodorowsky or The Saragasso Manuscript by Wojciech Has?..Modernist (talk) 13:59, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Describe them as what they are. An allegorical Western and an adaptation of an early 19th century novel. Jodorowsky is actually a strong critic of the surrealists, he thought they were too bourgeois. Smetanahue (talk) 14:08, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough - by the way have you seen the Has film?..Modernist (talk) 14:24, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely, one of my all-time favourites. Would love to expand its article but unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much info available in English. But Has in general is great, also his early Polish Film School stuff. Smetanahue (talk) 14:32, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Repetition

There is entirely too much repetition here of information in the main Surrealism article. This article should give a précis of Surrealism, and then move on to the matter at hand. Nearly 1/3rd of this article is devoted to background information that is unnecessary. ---RepublicanJacobite_TheFortyFive 22:24, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All of the following was added by RedRane on 4 November 2011. As I said above, this is repetitive of information in the Surrealism article. I bring this here for discussion. ---RepublicanJacobite_TheFortyFive 23:56, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

==Original Surrealist Movement==

The Surrealist movement rose and flourished in the 1920’s^[1]—it was an aesthetic and revolutionary movement, centered on the idea of artistic creation as a means by which one could relate with the world, with oneself, with others, and with society^[2] in non-conventional ways.

The movement arose in Paris from the anarchist, anti-war Dadaism movement.^[3]^[2] In contrast to Dadaism, Surrealism was optimistic; surrealist artists approached art as a means to escape and transcend their individual realities.^[3] Surrealism was influenced by Freudian concepts, with emphasis on dreams and the unconscious mind.^[4]

===Leaders of the Movement: Guillaume Apollinaire and André Breton===

While the Surrealist movement took flight around 1920, several artists are accredited with developing Surrealist ideals prior to that date. Names include Pierre Reverdy, Phillipe Soupault, and, more prominently, Guillaume Apollinaire.^[4]

Apollinaire (1880-1918) was a French poet^[5]^[6] and dynamic figure in the twentieth-century Parisian Avant-Garde movements. Beginning in 1903, Apollinaire was actively involved in a literary and artistic lifestyle.^[5] He urged his contemporaries to explore poetic fancy, and to find relationships between seemingly dissimilar things.^[5] A friend of Pablo Picasso,^[6] he played a role in the Cubist movement, publishing a book entitled Les Peintres Cubistes ("The Cubist Painters") in 1913.^[6] He published two books of poetry (Alcools in 1913 and Calligrammes in 1918^[6]), and finished his career in 1918 with his only play, ‘’Les Mamelles de Tiresias’’ (The Breasts of Tiresias).^[6] It was in describing this play that Apollinaire first coined the term, “surrealist”^[5]^[7]—or, rather, “Surréaliste” in French^[7] (from sur- meaning “beyond” and realisme meaning “realism.”^[8]) Les Mamelles—full of mythical allusions, errotic themes, is one of the earliest examples of surrealism.^[6]^[7]

Apollinaire was influenced by symbolist poets of previous generations, evidenced by his casual, lyrical poetic style that comprised a blend of both modern and traditional images and techniques.^[6] Les Mamelles—full of mythical allusions, errotic themes, and absurd elements—is one of the earliest examples of surrealism.^[6]^[7]

Apollinaire cast influence over younger poets and artists who would lead the upcoming Surrealist movement.^[5] André Breton (1896-1966^[5]), called “the Pope” of the Surrealist movement by his contemporaries,^[3] once referred to Apollinaire as a “prodigious gift of wonder.”^[9] Influenced by Apollinaire and the Dadaist phase, Breton emerged as a leader of the surrealists in 1924.^[5]

In that same year, Breton published Les Manifestes du Surréalisme* (Manifestoes of Surrealism),^[5] which he followed in 1929 with a second manifesto, Deuxieme Manifeste du Surréalisme*.^[10] Breton was major leader and theorist throughout the movement.^[11]

===The Nature of Surrealists===

Surrealists, especially of the original movement, were anti-conventionalists; they mocked religion and all forms of convention as “[enemies] of art."^[3]

They expressed themselves through surrealist automatism: a common practice was ecriture automatique*, or “automatic writing,” during which one sat down with pen and paper and wrote whatever came to mind; there was no preconceived subject and no mental censorship.^[5]

===Unfortunate Timing of the Movement===

It has been suggested that the Surrealist movement arrived with poor timing; it was a foreign movement often associated with madness, which arrived just after World War I^[12]. Most of its leadership officially declared membership in the Communist party in June 1927,^[9] which escalated the movement’s presence from a taboo to an offense.

Black and white, and monoaural

It is superfluous to specify that films from the 1920s and early 1930s are black-and-white or monaural, when colour and stereophony were not introduced into cinema until later. I suggest we remove blank and white and change monaural to with sound. Verbcatcher (talk) 19:47, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ “Surrealism.” The American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy. 3rd ed. 2005. Print.
^ ^a ^b Reid, Joyce M.H., ed. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of French Literature. Oxford: Claredon, 1976. Print.
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d Cite error: The named reference R3 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b Cite error: The named reference R5 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ Reid, Joyce M.H., ed. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of French Literature. Oxford: Claredon, 1976. Print.
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h “Guillaume Apollinaire.” Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia. 6th ed. 2010. Web. 19 Sept. 2011.
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d Flynn, Catherine. “‘Circe’ and Surrealism: Joyce and the Avant-Garde.” Journal of Modern Literature. 34.2 (2011): 121-138. Web. 19 Sept. 2011.
^ Harper, Douglas. Online Etymology Dictionary. 2010. Web. 19 Sept. 2011.
^ ^a ^b Cite error: The named reference R8 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cite error: The named reference R2 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Breton, Antre. "Manifestoes of Surrealism." Trans. Richard Seaver and Helen R. Lane. 1969. University of Michigan: University of Michigan Press, 2007. Print.
^ Cite error: The named reference R4 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

Scott Pilgrim vs the World

The article mentions a quote about it and other films as "surreal martial arts". Likewise, we have an article here stating ""Surreal" is an overused and misused adjective, and yet applicable here.".

What do you think?

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2010/aug/26/scott-pilgrim-vs-the-world-review

Cameron Nedland (talk) 01:07, 18 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

[R10-1] “Surrealism.” The American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy. 3rd ed. 2005. Print.

[R7-2] Reid, Joyce M.H., ed. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of French Literature. Oxford: Claredon, 1976. Print.

[R3-3] Cite error: The named reference R3 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[R5-4] Cite error: The named reference R5 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[R11-5] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ Reid, Joyce M.H., ed. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of French Literature. Oxford: Claredon, 1976. Print.

[R12-6] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h “Guillaume Apollinaire.” Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia. 6th ed. 2010. Web. 19 Sept. 2011.

[R14-7] Flynn, Catherine. “‘Circe’ and Surrealism: Joyce and the Avant-Garde.” Journal of Modern Literature. 34.2 (2011): 121-138. Web. 19 Sept. 2011.

[R18-8] Harper, Douglas. Online Etymology Dictionary. 2010. Web. 19 Sept. 2011.

[R8-9] Cite error: The named reference R8 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[R2-10] Cite error: The named reference R2 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[R13-11] Breton, Antre. "Manifestoes of Surrealism." Trans. Richard Seaver and Helen R. Lane. 1969. University of Michigan: University of Michigan Press, 2007. Print.

[R4-12] Cite error: The named reference R4 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

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