Talk:Sunderland A.F.C./GA1

GA Review

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Initial Comments: This article passes the quick-fail criteria...the use of the included illustrations & pics seems to check out...the article is fairly well referenced. After glancing at the previous peer reviews and the first GAN review, it's clear a lot of good work has been put into article. My goal for this review is to be as thorough as possible, but please note it's my personal policy not to make any edits on the article I'm currently reviewing, so the list of changes is up to other editors to carry out. Here's my full review:

GA review (see here for criteria)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS):
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars etc.:
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

My requirements for GA passage:

The 4th sentence of the 3rd paragraph of the "History" section partially reads, "The Football Association started an investigation into the payment, they said that the money given...." Insert the word "and" after the comma in that sentence. Done - Added.
Remove the comma in the last sentence of the 3rd paragraph under the "History" section. Done - Removed.
The 6th sentence of the 4th paragraph under the "History" section partially reads, "This, along with Sunderland spending the likes of record breaking transfer fees...." Remove the words "the likes" from the sentence, as the sentence would be more concise & coherent with their removal. Done - Removed.
The 1st sentence of the 5th paragraph in the "History" section reads, "In 1957, the club were implicated in a major financial scandal for the second in their history...." I believe the word "time" needs to be inserterd before the phrase "...in their history...." Then, delete the rest of the sentence so that it will now read, "In 1957, the club were implicated in a major financial scandal for the second time in their history." *note:also see my thoughts on the verb tense of this sentence under the "suggestions & comments" section below. Done
In the 3rd sentence of the 5th paragraph of the "History" section, a quick explanation of the term "top-flight" would be beneficial. In essence, how would you explain what "top-flight" means to Wiki readers like me who are very unfamilar with football? Comment - Wouldn't it be more appropriate to link to wiktionary, as this is also a widely used word in football articles, it simply means "Of the highest rank, or peak of excellence" (from wiktionary), so in this case the top-flight is the Premier League.

That seems like a fine idea. I'll leave it up to you to decide if you would like to make any sort of change or keep the article the way it is.Monowi (talk) 23:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done - Linked to wiktionary.

In the 2nd sentence of the 5th paragraph in the "history" section, a comma after the phrase, "They were accused of breaking the wage cap" would be warranted. Done - Added commma.
In the 5th sentence of the 5th paragraph of the "History section, the commas around the phrase "by some" can be removed. Done - Removed.
Please revise the 2nd sentence of the 7th paragraph in the "History" section so that it no longer begins with the numerical value of the year 1987. Instead, consider starting the setence with something like, "In the year 1987...." The point being that beggining a setence with a number, even a year, isn't good form (and typing out "1987" into words would be distracting for readers). Done - Reworded.
The 3rd sentence of the 10th paragraph in the "History" seems to have some odd wording, as the first part reads, " Quinn had been in charge for the first few games of the season in a poor start,...." I suggest something more straightforward like, "Quinn oversaw a poor start to the first few games of the season, ...." Done
The last sentence of the "History" section stands by itself as a paragraph, however I consider a paragraph to be three setences or more. Integrate this sentence into the previous paragraph. Then if possible, try to be more concise with the information presented in this revised paragraph. Done - Merged and trimmed.
The "Colours and Crest" section begins with the phrase, "Sunderland began playing in an all blue kit...." I understand from the context of the sentence that "kit" equates to the word "uniform," but adding that explicit extra context into the text would make the article easier to read for readers like myself who have never seen or heard of the word "kit" used in that context. Done - Wikilinked and changed to strip.
The last sentence of the 1st paragraph under the "Colours and Crest" section partially reads, "Their badge was included the upper part of the Sunderland coat of arms...." I think the word "was" needs to be removed from that phrase. Done - Removed.
The 1st sentence of the 2nd paragraph under the "Colours" section partially reads, "In 1972 the badge was changed, but still including the ship...." Looks like another typo; try changing the word "including" to "included." Done - Changed.
The 3rd sentence of the 2nd paragraph under the "Colours" section begins, "In 1997 with the new stadium...." How about changing the wording to something that flows better. My suggestion is, "In conjuction with the move to Stadium of Light...." In this same sentence, also put parenthesis around "but the ship was left out." Done - Reworded.
The last sentence of the "Colours and Crest" seems very out of place, and in fact it might even be vandalism. Please remove the sentence entirely, or move it to an appropriate place in the article. Done - Eep thats vandalism, cheers.
Run-on sentence: the 3rd sentence under the "Stadiums" section Done - Inserted commas.
The 4th sentence of the "Stadiums" says, "...the club had played there for again just the single season before moving...." Try something more concise and clear, like, "the club played a single season there before moving." Done - Changed.
The 2nd sentence of the 2nd paragraph in the "Stadiums" section needs the word "and" inserted after the comma. Done
Run-on sentence: the 4th sentence of the 2nd paragraph of the "Stadiums" section. Comment - Is this "Nearing the turn of the century, Sunderland moved to Roker Park, returning to Roker." the sentence you're talking about?

In retrospect, it seems I was referring to the sentence after that. No matter; just clean up the wording of the sentence at your leisure before you put the article up for peer review or FAN next. Monowi (talk) 23:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done - Split into two, and added commmas accordingly.

The 1st sentence of the 3rd paragraph in the "Stadiums" section begins, "In 1997, Sunderland moved to present stadium...." Insert the word "its" before the word "present." Done
Another missing transition in the 3rd sentence of the 3rd paragraph of the "Stadiums" section; insert the word "and" before the comma. Comment - If you mean this sentence "The stadium bears the same name as S.L. Benfica's ground Estádio da Luz, albeit in a different language.", I don't think "and" would go properly with that sentence. Maybe "though" would.

That's fine, it's totally up to you as to what specific wording would make the sentence sound better.Monowi (talk) 23:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done - Added "though".

The wording of the 1st sentence of the "Statistics" section is strange, reading, "...having made 537 first team appearances 1961 and 1976." Shouldn't it say, "having made 537 first team appearances between 1961 and 1976."? Done - Changed.
Add more explanation to the caption that accompanies the graph in the "Statistics and Records" section. I suggest clearly indicating that the blue line is the division between the first & 2nd division, and likewise that the green line is the division between the 2nd & 3rd divisions (as a American not extremely familiar with how the Premier League is structured, the league division thing took me a little bit of time to figure out with the current description). Done
In the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph of the "Statistics" section, rewrite the sentence to, "Sunderland joined the top division in England, The Football League, in the 1890–91 season and did not experience relegation until 1957–58 (a span of 67 seasons seasons)." Done
Wikilink to a relevant article for the term "battery gun" in the "Nicknames" section. Done - Linked.

Suggestions for future improvement & Additional Comments:

Perform another copyedit to the article. I tried to point out everything, but I'm sure a fresh eye could find more improvements. Comment - I'll make sure to ask someone right away.
Text in the "Stadiums" section slightly overlaps the "Stadium of Light" picture on my computer screen, mostly likely the result of the Sunderland badge & accompanying caption protruding down vertically into the "Stadiums" section. It would be cool to try and ensure the text doesn't overlap for any users, if that is at all possible.
If you eventually plan on elevating this article to Featured Article status, the organization of the references will probably need to be adjusted into a "Notes" section accompanied by a "References" section that only lists the books (see the Featured Article Derry City F.C. for an example of what I mean). Specifically, I would suggest using a feature of the Template:Cite book whereby you can automatically link from a listing in the "notes" section down to the References section where all the books are listed using the "ref" parameter. Done - Modelled on Derry City's style.
Be mindful that the picture of the Bob Stokoe might be called into question by a user of Wikipedia Commons. I had a similar-type picture for the Ozzie Smith article, but I had to re-take, re-size and re-issue the picture from a GNU license because a user on Wikipedia Commons claimed there was no "freedom of panorama" in the United States. I have no idea if that law applies in the UK, but I did want to give you a heads up in case you ever run into a problem like that. Comment - Actually not long ago I ran this over with User:Geni, who confirmed that I needed to contact the person who took the picture. I messaged the author on flickr and asked if he could adjust the licensing. He did accordingly and Geni said it was fine as she is really good with image licensing, I'll trust her.
I have to admit I'm puzzled by phrases like "...Sunderland were admitted..." and "...the club were implicated...." I've noticed that other football articles, like the FA Class article I mentioned above, have the same verb usage when referring to an individual team, so I gather this is an accepted practice for football-related articles. I normally think of sports organizations as single entities unto themselves, but I understand that by using Sunderland in the plural, it refers to the collection of team members. That said, the plural usage itself doesn't remain consistent. For example, the 2nd sentence of the 4th paragraph in the "History" section reads, "It was the closest the club has ever come to The Double." If the singular verb usage is present with the object of that sentence, "club", than why not also have the 2nd sentence of the third paragraph under the "History" section use the same singular verb tense? Even using one of the team's nicknames, such as in a phrase like, "The Black Cats were admitted..." would make more sense to me. Regardless, my puzzlement on this issue will not affect the passage of this article.

Review Result:

GAN review ON HOLD

In short, this article is fine overall, and just needs some copyediting for GA status.

I will place the article on hold for seven days, during which time all requirements need to be met in order for me to consider passing it. When/if all the requirements are met, please notify me on my talk page, & I will review the changes. For anyone else reading this review, please consider reviewing an article yourself at Wikipedia:Good article nominations. Thank you for your contribution to Wikipedia thus far, and good luck with the article in the future! Monowi (talk) 07:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GAN review passed

Congratulations; after reviewing the requested changes, I believe this article now meets the requirements of a Good Article. It was interesting and enjoyable to learn about Sunderland A.F.C. during the review process. Best of luck as you work towards making this a Featured Article. Cheers, Monowi (talk) 23:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]