Talk:Sunday Closing (Wales) Act 1881

Introduction of the legislation

The 4th sentence of the section 'Introduction of the legislation', which states: "The 1881 Act did not apply to Monmouthshire, which at the time was considered by the government to be part of England for legal purposes,..." should have a WP:Rs for this claim. Yours, Daicaregos (talk) 12:25, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

The Local Government Act 1888 included Monmouthshire as part of England (as, incidentally, did that of 1933). Although in many respects the county has always been culturally part of Wales, it was not unequivocally counted as part of Wales in an administrative or legal sense until the Act of 1972. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:30, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Obviously I Assume Good Faith, so I should point out to you, as you cannot have been aware, that in accordance with WP:SPS "Articles and posts on Wikipedia, or other websites that mirror Wikipedia content, may not be used as sources." Also, (again I Assume Good Faith) the source you quoted to substantiate the statement "The 1881 Act did not apply to Monmouthshire, which at the time was considered by the government to be part of England for legal purposes,..." relates to 1888, seven years after the 1881 Act in this article, so could not have been used as a reliable source anyway. Further, I was surprised to find that there was no significant reaction, particularly from anyone in Wales at the time, to the British government considering Monmouthshire "to be part of England ...", because, (I continue to Assume Good Faith) had there been any dissent it would have been noted in the article in accordance with the first paragraph of WP:NPOV: "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors." Yours, Daicaregos (talk) 10:36, 10 November 2008 (UTC)Thank you, Daicaregos (talk) 11:22, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The articles on the various Local Government Acts refer to the legislation directly, and there is no evidence for any change in approach during the 1880s. The probable reason there may have been muted reaction at the time is that whether or not Monmouthshire was regarded as within "England" or "Wales" was at best a minor concern for most, as all counties were administered in the same way as part of "England and Wales". All published encyclopaedias and maps in the 19th century, so far as I am aware, regarded Monmouthshire as part of England, and continued to do so for some time afterwards; for example, see the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica. However, clearly there was a reaction in Monmouthshire, which is what led to the 1915 and 1921 legislation to include Monmouthshire within the terms of the Sunday Closing Act. The article links directly to the Hansard debates in 1921 which considered this. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply, which was all very interesting and may become part of some discussion at some later time. However, the reply did not deal with the query raised in this topic, which was, and is, that the claim made in the article: "The 1881 Act did not apply to Monmouthshire, which at the time was considered by the government to be part of England for legal purposes,..." does not have a reliable source, other than the personal opinion of the author. The claim should either have a reliable source noted in the article, or it should be removed. By the way (and off topic), the reference provided at the end of the sentence containing the claim is from Hansard 1921, 40 years after the legislation to which the claim relates. Nevertheless, the reference contains a quote from a member of the government, Lord Clwyd, who says: "In view of these facts, and of the fact that Wales and Monmouthshire are historically one and have been recognised as one in legislation in the past for all local government purposes, ...". Yours, Daicaregos (talk) 12:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, as I'm unable to access the parliamentary debate itself I've deleted the unreferenced words "which at the time was considered by the government to be part of England for legal purposes". Re the quote from Lord Clwyd, Monmouthshire was indeed usually, in other legislation, considered as one with Wales, hence the term "Wales and Monmouthshire", but it was not considered by legislators as part of Wales, otherwise the reference would simply be to "Wales". (Of course, in cultural, linguistic and ecclesiastical terms it was considered part of Wales by most residents, except by some English immigrants to the area who wished to retain their sense of "Englishness". This is discussed at Monmouthshire (historic).) Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:33, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Just happened across this page and this discussion got me curious. This Hansard reference seems to be what was being looked for. In particular, Edward Carbutt, MP for Monmouth, describes Monmouthshire as "divided only by a scientific frontier from Wales, of which it ought, in reality, to form part". Perhaps this should be re-integrated into the article? -- gsyhiap (talk) 12:50, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Carbutt's words (on 4 May 1881) certainly indicate that Monmouthshire was not considered part of Wales at that point, because he considered that it ought to be. I would have no objection to a referenced clarification being included in the article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:27, 30 December 2011 (UTC)