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See MOS:NICK: If a person has a common English-language hypocorism (diminutive or abbreviation) used in lieu of a given name, it is not presented between quotation marks or parentheses within or after their name.Johnny Depp is another example. Keivan.fTalk20:40, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think so. Most people would assume that someone called "Sue-Ellen" would either be called "Sue" or "Ellen", not "Suella". [[User:Ellwat|Ellwat]talk) 20:48, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's not. NICK says "It is not always necessary to spell out why the article title and lead paragraph give a different name. If a person has a common English-language hypocorism (diminutive or abbreviation) [which is what "Suella" is] used in lieu of a given name, it is not presented between quotation marks or parentheses within or after their name". Also, what about "Suella" is uniquely British? Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:58, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to misunderstand.
(1) As has already been explained to you, ‘Suella’ is not a common diminutive of Sue Ellen. So the part of MOS:NICK you have quoted is irrelevant – the part I quoted is the relevant part.
(2) The reference to non-British readers relates to my supposition that, while Suella Braverman is well -known to any British person who has any interest in politics, most non-British readers have never heard of her, and will be confused that the lead of the article does not mention her usual name. Sweet6970 (talk) 21:13, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The part I quoted is the relevant part, as has been explained to you. Want to show me how our apparently criminally stupid readers won't be able to compute that "Suella" comes from "Sue-Ellen"? The putting the nickname in quotes thing is for names that are nothing like their common names, like Snakehips Johnson or Ged Kearney. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 21:21, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I’m baffled by the reference to MOS:NICK This says: If a person is known by a nickname used in lieu of or in addition to a given name, and it is not a common hypocorism[h] of one of their names, or a professional alias, it is usually presented between double quotation marks following the last given name or initial. The quotation marks are not put in lead-section boldface. - which is exactly what this article previously did. Sweet6970 (talk) 20:46, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Multiple reliable sources [1][2] consistently call her Suella and mention Sue-Ellen Fernandes as her birth name. Consequently, per WP:BIRTHNAME, our article should start as follows: Suella Braverman (born Sue-Ellen Fernandes, 3 April 1980) is a British politician.... — kashmīrīTALK22:21, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
One more comment: we definitely should if Gates's legal name is Bill, since in such a case there would be no reason whatsoever to call him "William". Similarly, Braverman's legal name appears to be Suella if various government, parliamentary and judicial documents are to be trusted. — kashmīrīTALK22:52, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Tim O'Doherty, Why? Do you really believe that nobody will click these links? Not single of these sources mention that her name is Sue-Ellen. All of them refer to Braverman as Suella and the only time they use "Sue-Ellen" is in the following two phrases: born Sue-Ellen and Sue-Ellen was born. All of them thus indicate that Sue-Ellen was her name in the past. — kashmīrīTALK20:13, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is not what the phrase "was born" indicates. I was born in the past, doesn't mean I no longer exist. It's a common construction that even we on Wikipedia use to give somebody's full name. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:34, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Tim O'Doherty, Do you really not understand the phrase "X, born Y"? No, it doesn't mean that she has been born. The phrase means that she was born named "something else" than she is now. Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin (born Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili). He did not legally change his name – he simply started using a slightly different name form (Iosep –> Yosif (Russian)). Yes, Braverman stopped using her birth name Sue-Ellen and at some point started using the name Suella, she and everybody else, including government bodies, are using it exclusively, and there's absurdly vast amount of evidence for it. — kashmīrīTALK23:14, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure about the page you're pointing to, but the set up "X (born Y)" is typically used when there has been a legal name change (like George R. R. Martin), which in this case we have no reason to believe has happened. She is still Sue-Ellen, but is commonly known as Suella. Keivan.fTalk04:25, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You've also misinterpreted what I said: that being, me saying I was born in the past was an example of me applying your semantic argument to a different scenario, not me disputing that Braverman was born; obviously she was. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:43, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone can change their name (or their gender, come to that) they can do it legally or informally. The person themselves, chooses when and how they desire to be known. She has chosen as her legal name, Suella Braverman and she has used that full name since her marriage. Several legal documents record the name she prefers to be known by and we have a duty to respect her wishes.
Hypocorism is a distraction, her adoption of Suella, is not a pet name or nickname, it is her current legal name used on legal documentation. Jaymailsays (talk) 00:07, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And yet: she remains Sue-Ellen. Find me one source—one—which states she has changed her name. Other sources where she refers to herself as "Suella" doesn't change that she is also "Sue-Ellen": sources for thing A aren't sources for thing B. For example, in the 2017 GE's declaration for Fareham: "FERNANDES, Sue-Ellen Cassiana", where they'll then usually read out something like "commonly known as Suella Fernandes..." etc. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 00:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since her marriage (February 2018) she is only known as Suella Braverman. For whatever reason (it doesn't matter, to us, at all) she has stated the name she wants to be known by, in official documentation while serving as Attorney General. Jaymailsays (talk) 00:45, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most likely yes. Companies House requires passport / driving licence verification for all registered company officials. If it recorded her name as Suella, then this will be the name in her ID documents. — kashmīrīTALK08:59, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Companies House refers to Sir Anthony Blair as Tony Blair. That does not necessarily indicate that a legal name change has taken place. Most of this is WP:SYNTHESIS. We cannot look at primary sources and drive our own conclusions. A reliable source has to explicitly state that her name has been 'legally' changed. Keivan.fTalk13:45, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1) In Britain, your legal name is the name you are known by. You don’t have to go through any legal procedure in order to change your name.
2) She is generally referred to as Suella, as can be seen in numerous sources used in our article, so that is what should be in our article.
"In 1980, Richard officially changed his name, by deed poll, from Harry Rodger Webb to Cliff Richard.[43] At the same time, he received, from the Queen, the award of Officer of the Order of the British Empire for services to music and charity.[44]" Find equivalent sourcing for Suella Braveraman and you will have a case. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 19:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
She changed her name to Suella Braverman, having married South African business executive Rael Braverman in 2019.[3] She did not "shorten" her name, she did not "began using another name". She changed her name. Is this source clear enough? — kashmīrīTALK19:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We all know that she has changed her name. Many people do it on the surface. Does not necessarily mean that she has legally done it. In the case of Cliff Richard, it's fully spelled out in The London Gazette: Notice is hereby given that by Deed Poll dated 3rd September 1980 and enrolled in the Supreme Court of Judicature on 15th September 1980, CLIFF RICHARD of Feather Green, a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by birth, abandoned the name of Harry Rodger Webb and assumed the name of Cliff Richard–12th September 1980. You have to get an 'enrolled' deed poll via the Royal Courts of Justice to change your name. You can make your own deed poll but it's not accepted everywhere. I cannot find a source indicating that Braverman has gone down any of these routes. And she surely knows what a deed poll is. Keivan.fTalk20:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I have said above – you do NOT need to go through any legal procedure to change your name in this country. Even the source provided by Keivan.f confirms this: You do not have to follow a legal process to start using a new name. But you might need a ‘deed poll’ to apply for or to change official documents like your passport or driving licence. You do NOT need a deed poll to change your name. Sweet6970 (talk) 21:20, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And? The source says You do not need to have to follow a legal process to start using a new name. Which means that starting tomorrow she may decide to be known as "Potato Sacks". That does not necessarily mean that her passport and license are also going to feature the name "Potato Sacks" unless she makes it legally official via a deed poll. An example includes people with dual UK/US citizenships who change their names in the UK via a deed poll (or change of name deed), and then this change is reflected in their US passports as well. Keivan.fTalk21:33, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What is your point? The lede sentence is meant to spell out the subject's full real name. In the US you need a court order for any name changes, and there is no indication that Obama has gone ahead with this process (White House bio that gives her full name).
"Suella Braverman" is literally the freaking title of this article and that's because it's her common name. Same with Lady Gaga who's actually "Stefani Joanne Angelina Germanotta" or Tony Blair who's "Anthony Charles Lynton Blair". Nobody would suggest a name change for those pages or this one but if you want to claim or imply within the article's body or the lede that she has legally changed her first name from "Sue-Ellen" to "Suella" or abandoned the middle name "Cassiana" you need a solid source that explicitly states this, otherwise it would be WP:SYNTHESIS. Same goes for other British figures, including Blair or Liz Truss, whose actual names do not match their common names. Keivan.fTalk01:15, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote above what I believe should be the correct start (Suella Braverman (born Sue-Ellen Cassiana Fernandes)). But it's not a hill I'm willing to die on, especially given my personal opinion on the article subject. — kashmīrīTALK01:26, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Page Title is literally, Suella Braverman, followed by her birth name and name upon marriage. Anyone can change their name upon marriage. "Deed Polls", do not come into it. Jaymailsays (talk) 12:56, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The gray box at right shows that Braverman has been the M.P. for her seat since 2015, while if you review Wikipedia's details on that seat you find that it didn't exist until 2024. I don't deny that she does hold office for that seat, but, obviously, before 2024, she held office for a DIFFERENT seat. I do not believe that Wikipedia is this bad with Representatives in the lower house of the U.S.A.'s Congress. I believe that it is possible to find a Representative whose chain of offices held will include Representative from/of the Xth District of some State, immediately followed or preceded by Representative from the Xth District of that State, because new Districts were drawn in that State and the name "Xth District" was used twice, once before the re-drawing of boundaries, and once afterward, with the desire to avoid any implication that the two Districts are the same one.2600:1700:6759:B000:E894:BFCC:705D:880 (talk) 22:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)Christopher Lawrence Simpson[reply]
There is a misunderstanding here – the ‘2015-2024’ applies to the constituency of Fareham, which was abolished at the 2024 election. Braverman was elected to the new constituency of Fareham and Waterlooville at the 2024 election. So the infobox is correct. Sweet6970 (talk) 00:00, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sweet6970, when dealing with edit requests in future, you can use the same text as the person requesting an edit, you just have to make sure to link to the diff in which they made the edit request to show you are making the edit on their behalf. Then, the edit request can be marked as answered so other people reviewing Category:Wikipedia semi-protected edit requests know it's complete. Thanks! --Ferien (talk) 00:21, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What's the basis for the list of politicians in the info box? It includes some relatively minor figures like David Willets (or Braverman herself) but leaves out many leaders such as Ted Heath, Anthony Eden or Neville Chamberlain. Is it supposed to be just some random figures or is there a basis for selection? 46.31.205.228 (talk) 23:10, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Or following that, does the box even belong here? It says this article is part of a series on Conservatism in the United Kingdom but is it? Rishi Sunak's article doesn't say that nor does Boris Johnson's or Margaret Thatcher's. I haven't been exhaustive in checking every other Conservative politician but I haven't seen any it is on. Why is this article in particular part of a series about Conservatism in the United Kingdom, which I guess is different to just being about a UK Conservative politician? 46.31.205.228 (talk) 02:30, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]