Talk:Strumica

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Greece: Byzantine

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Page protected

Currently I've protected this page from editing for three days, due to edit warring; please do bear in mind that Wikipedia operates on the principle of consensus, and that dispute resolution is typically the easiest and best solution in the long run. – Luna Santin (talk) 12:14, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To Ddirec

Thank you that at least you described two of your changes in the articles Tetovo and Strumica. :) Maybe the reason of your silence until now is that you aren't many familiar with the rules of Wikipedia, but some of your edits can be defined as a typical form of vandalism.

Concerning your note: there are also 'relevant' sources that in 1921 strumica was considered a serbian city... I would be glad to answer: If you have the data from 1921 I think that it would be very interesting to see them in the article. Of course, I hope that you make a difference between the end of the 19 century when it was made Kanchov statistics and time of Serbian rule.Regards,--Males (talk) 15:26, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To Males

In this article in the section 'History' it reads: "According to the 1878 Ottoman census the Strumica had 2,400 households with 3,300 Muslim and 2,120 Bulgarian citizens". Does the official census really say that, or does it say Muslim citizens, non-Muslim citizens.

I read the link to the book of Vasil Kanchov about Strumica, and there it is stated: "Споредъ салнамето отъ 1312 год. въ тая каза има мухамедани (турци и цигани) 16 020 и немухамедани (българи и евреи) 17 750". Does the official census from 1312 really say that (I'm not talking about the numbers), or is the content in the brackets (I think that's the correct word :)) added by Kanchev himself. He cites Verkovich, but it seems to me he disagrees with the numbers, and then he says, the numbers he got are very close to the official census, so it's not data from the official census "Нашитѣ числа сѫ доста близки до послѣднитѣ турски официални". And then (Мухамедани (турци и цигани) и евреи по нашата статистика достигатъ близо 17 000 души, а българитѣ съ малка часть цигани сѫ около 23 800) he addes these numbers himself. It's things like this that are misleading. If you (or anyone else) present 'verifiable' data from books like this, then, I think, it's only fair to explain. The sentence I deleted was also misleading. In 1921 Strumica was part of Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (if I'm not mistaken). Strumica in particular was part of Serbia, and all citizens were considered to be Serbian. In some books they are declared Bulgarian. As I said before, I believe things like this should be left out, at least for now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ddirec (talk • contribs) 17:33, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are 3 mistakes in the sentence "According to the 1878 Ottoman census the Strumica had 2,400 households with 3,300 Muslim and 2,120 Bulgarian citizens":

First is that, as we can see from the title of the reference, the data are from 1873, not from 1878. It was published in French in 1878. The book was reprinted bilingually in Sofia in 1995.
The second is that this wasn't some census itself, but was statistics or detailed description of the population on the basis of the data by Ottoman tax administration. With providing of some information of the ethnical belonging of the population. (It isn't based only on the Millet system beccause even Bulgarian villages under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate were defined as Bulgarian).
The third mistake is the number of the Bulgarians. It isn't 2,120 in the book, but 3 120 (Македония и Одринско. Статистика на населението от 1873 г.“ Македонски научен институт, София, 1995, с.186-187)

These mistakes have to be fixed in the text. Hoewever, the fact of existing of the data is indisputable.

I don't understand what is the problem with Kanchov statistics? Kanchov published results of his research and then, in the bottom of the table about each kaza provides, for comparison, the data of other sources.

You are right that in 1921, during the Serbian rule, the citizens of Strumica were proclaimed Serb by the authorities. We can mention this in the history section. However what is the problem to rely on an other external (not Bulgarian, as I seen) soure. Of course, we can specify the exact wording and the place of the sentence "Strumica was considered a Bulgarian majority town in 1921^[1],". I think that it belongs to the history section and must to be detailed: "According to....". Maybe it in the place only with more detailed specification of the historical context.--Males (talk) 18:44, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Macedonia, a plea for the primitive - Goff, A - Page 227 (1921)

Bulgarian census

1. About the city - this is a casual Bulgarian city until 1920 when like a part of the West Outlands are given to the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians.
Nowadays about 30% of people in Strumitsa Municipality are Bulgarian citizens so I think it is fair to have the bulgarian name in the page. 2. About Tsar Samuel I, his name is correctly spelled Samuil, not Samoil. Please check the English version of wikipedia.

not a word about climate?

It's interesting how this topic (the climate) has been constantly avoided, not only in the article about Strumica, but in the articles about almost all other macedonian cities. The climate is an important factor in the presentation of any place on Earth, especially places with transitional climates, like macedonian cities. You can see palmtrees on the Strumica streets, but you don't know if they survived the winter, because the absolute minimal temperatures in Strumica can go under - 20 Celsious. It will be good if someone puts climate data about Strumica and a word or two about the subtrpical vegetation in this city and surrounding area. Regards;207.216.132.111 (talk) 04:55, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.strumica.gov.mk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=203:2010-09-07-12-31-39&catid=118:2010-09-02-11-05-27&Itemid=168&lang=en http://www.strumica.gov.mk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=195:2010-09-07-11-28-19&catid=117:2010-09-02-11-05-05&Itemid=167&lang=en. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. DoctorKubla (talk) 17:08, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Removed additional copyvio from http://www.strumica.gov.mk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=186:2010-09-07-09-35-13&catid=115:2010-09-02-11-04-31&Itemid=165&lang=en. Please do not revert. Dana boomer (talk) 14:05, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Biased historical nonsense removed

Ihave removed a lot of nationalistic POV about Macedonian Tsar Samuil, etc. Jingiby (talk) 17:41, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bulgarian name.

In North Macedonia today there remain those who identify themselves as Bulgarians. Hostility to them remains, even if less than in Communist Yugoslavia, where it was forbidden to proclaim Bulgarian identity with the partial exception of the Strumica region. For more see: Yugoslavism. Histories of a Failed Idea, 1918-1992 by Dejan Djokić, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2003, ISBN 1850656630, p. 122. Between 1913 and 1919 it was part of Bulgaria. For more see: Patrick J. Treanor, Britain, Bulgaria, and the Paris Peace Conference, 1918–1919: A Just and Lasting Peace? Rowman & Littlefield, 2019, ISBN 1498585639, p. 52. Today it is close to Bulgarian border and per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) relevant foreign language names are permitted. Jingiby (talk) 16:20, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Macedonia, a plea for the primitive - Goff, A - Page 227 (1921)

[1]