Talk:Steve Broy

Broy?

It is widely acknowleldged that at least one person other than Broy was the Dr. Heathen Scum character whilst in the band. This should be addressed.Mk5384 (talk) 07:53, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. I didn't know about this but I added some information that I found from Dr. Heathen Scum's MySpace page. If you have more information about this please be bold. Klassikkomies (talk) 01:13, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

The main problem is that The Mentors were so far removed from the mainstream that it's very hard to find reliable sources. What I know of it is that whilst Broy was in college, 1 or more others performed in the band as "Dr. Heathen Scum". You can find a bit of this on the talk page of The Mentors article. I'll see if I can dig up some more.Mk5384 (talk) 04:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

The person using that MySpace page is not Broy.Mk5384 (talk) 04:17, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Mike Dewey is the original Dr. Heathen Scum and he wrote several of the original songs on the first two records. They all went to high school together, including Broy, but it was Mike Dewey who started the band with Eldon and Sickie and he brought his own pre-Mentors moniker of Dr. Heathen Scum to the group as well. For Broy to take advantage of the fact that all the early pics of the band have the hoods on is *extremely* slimy in my opinion. Mike is not in good health and when he goes the theft of his music and persona will be complete except for a few of us who were around back then. Come to think of it, I bet wikipedia is the ideal place to expose Broy. I'm not sure why Sickie is apparently not troubled by Broy's actions but my own bands (Vandals then Detox) played enough shows with the Mentors in the early and mid 1980s to know who the real Dr. Heathen Scum is. Mr. Broy can take credit for all his own work with the later (shittier imho) versions of the Mentors but the truth will come out.

Steve humann (talk) 06:56, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm all for getting to the bottom of this and correcting the information in the article. Do keep in mind that, for information to be included in the Wiki article, it must be verifiable, and as they say in the Wikipedia:V, the threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. Thus, what we need to find is some kind of interview or sanctioned biography that describes these sorts of events – unfortunately, first-hand knowledge doesn't count unless it's been published somewhere. Of the few sources I've found (including an interview with Carlson,) all suggest that Broy first played bass and Dewey joined a few years later. Like anything else on the internet, that could be a pack of lies, but since that's all we have to go on, I propose that we have to stick with that info in the article for now. But by all means, let's see if we can find reliable accounts of the early days of the band that match your version of history, if they're out there. Colinclarksmith (talk) 14:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not much of a wikipedian but I'm going to talk to Mike and see if he's aware of any verifiable (as opposed to true, lol) sources to back up his claims. I plan to visit and ask him tomorrow about that. my understanding of the band's WA beginnings is based only on what little I've heard Mike tell me over the years, so I can't rule out that Broy ever played music with Eldon and Sickie before he did. What Mike has been very clear on is his claim to having written some of the early songs (he showed me how to play Get Up And Die) as well as the theft of his high school nickname of Dr. Heathen Scum. I also kinda gathered that there are some hard feelings that Sickie has against Mike for something. Another thing I'm trying to find out is why the original Mystic Records recordings are so terminally unrereleased. I loved those records and really can't listen to the rerecorded-in-1998 stuff. I can't remember the Mystic Records guy's name either. I wonder how he and Broy get along.

Steve humann (talk) 06:37, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, if you can get any sources on the subject direct from Dewey, that would be great. It's a shame that neither of us runs a fanzine, we could conduct and then publish an interview with him on the subject ourselves! But yeah, it is funny how Wikipedia becomes the sum of the most widely told versions of history, rather than the truth itself. I guess that's kind of how it works in the real world though, eh? Best, Colinclarksmith (talk) 11:49, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Hey, that fanzine suggestion is golden, thanks. I know just the people to suggest it to. they could probably do a whole issue on just old punk musicians who got screwed out of their song-writing credits and money. Dr. Heathen Scum is different because the guy took his name too but I've seen the rest of it happen way too many times. I doubt that punk music is unique this way, but it's the only genre I have first-hand experience watching how money and fame change people.

Steve humann (talk) 03:22, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

OK, I was wrong about Mike Dewey starting the band. I called him for a recap. He's from down here (LA) and joined the band (bringing his personal moniker of Doctor Heathen Scum) after they'd moved down here. He joined the band and co-wrote and co-produced the first record as a friend of their manager originally but he really hit it off with Eldon in particular which led to his several-year stint with the band during which most of their early recorded catalog was written. after a lot of flakey drug issues all around Mike was replaced by people including ultimately Broy who decided to keep Mike's pre-band nickname. I'm planning on trying to get something published that includes Mike's (Heathen Scum's) story for the record. I'd also like to find out what Doug Moody (I think that was his name) from Mystic might have to say about that era with the band.

Steve humann (talk) 06:28, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Cool, glad we're working our way towards getting to the bottom of this! Colinclarksmith (talk) 16:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

oppose deletion

Whilst quite possibly one of the most offensive persons living, Dr. Heathen Scum is indeed, notable enough for an article. He has been the leader, and spokesman for The Mentors since the death of Eldon Hoke, and was the de facto leader even during the years that Hoke was the center of attention. He has numerous albums and songs to his credit, with The Mentors, as a solo "artist", and as a collaborator with others.Mk5384 (talk) 06:31, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I've removed the proposed deletion tag and will nominate it for WP:AFD so others can come to consensus (it'll take me a few hours to get around to it as I'm only paying a flying visit right now). How's that? Plutonium27 (talk) 09:40, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

I do think that that is best. My thanks.Mk5384 (talk) 03:13, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

I cast a vote for keep. The Notability guidelines for inclusion of musical artists states, Note that members of notable bands are redirected to the band's article, not given individual articles, unless they have demonstrated individual notability for activity independent of the band, such as solo releases. Members of two notable bands are generally notable enough for their own article. Since this character has both released solo records and appeared in multiple (albeit related) notable bands, it seems like a pretty clear-cut case to me. Colinclarksmith (talk) 16:34, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Fine by me. Plutonium27 (talk) 21:26, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Rape rock rules. I cast a vote for keep like Colinclarksmith. Dr. Scum is clearly notable. Klassikkomies (talk) 22:02, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Hey Klassikkomies, FYI – the issue has been resolved and the article is being kept. Best, Colinclarksmith (talk) 22:05, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Nice to hear that. Unfortunately I have noticed that there seems to be awful lot wikipedians that want to delete all articles that are not about bees and honey and flowers and that kind of nice, girly things and that makes it very hard for us who try to do the dirty work and write about rape rock, MILF pornography etc... ;) Yours truly Klassikkomies (talk) 22:24, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, if it's encyclopedic, it's encyclopedic, right? I'm not here to make value judgments, just contribute where I can. Best, Colinclarksmith (talk) 01:46, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I would like to stress that Plutonium27 was nothing but reasonable in this manner. Let's AGF, and assume that they nominated it for deletion for genuine purposes. Plutonium27 removed the deletion theirself when I opposed deletion, and dropped the issue alltogether after Colinclarksmith seconded. So let's move on, and see what we can do to get the article in better shape.Mk5384 (talk) 03:53, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Not to drag this out, but I completely agree, the Wiki editor who proposed the deletion was completely in his rights and very pleasant to deal with – I hope I didn't give the impression that I ever thought otherwise. Colinclarksmith (talk) 12:33, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I am sure your right about Plutonium27 and my comment was not meant to critizise his contributions. With this kind of articles there is always just a risk that if the article is nominated for deletion angry editors may vote for deletion just because they hate the topic and article might be deleted because of that. I have seen it happen and it makes me very cynical about this project. Klassikkomies (talk) 08:18, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Broy/Dr. Heathen Scum

It needs to be more explicitly clarified whether this article is about Steve Broy, or the character Dr. Heathen Scum. As it is titled "Dr. Heathen Scum", it seems to make sense that it is about the character, which warrants the inclusion of Mike Dewey, as one who played the role. I have no objection to renaming the article "Steven Broy", and (if notability can be established), having a separate article for Mr. Dewey. That would probably make the most sense, as the current format seems to be confusing even to those familiar with the subject, let alone the average reader.Mk5384 (talk) 01:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree that it's getting confusing. I strongly think the article should be about (and thus named after and filed under the name of) Broy - the discography is geared towards his personal releases, and other info in the article is about his activity outside of the band, not the concepts surrounding the character. I don't believe that the character of Dr. Heathen Scum is notable for inclusion in Wikipedia - I'm not even sure that the "character" really even exists beyond a stage name that happens to be employed by multiple members at different times. So by all means, rename and relocate the article to Broy's name (I think the same should be done for the Sickie Wifebeater article, i.e. moved to Eric Carlson.) Also, I do think that in the finalized article for Broy, Dewey should briefly be mentioned as having shared the stage name to avoid confusion (as if that's possible!) I do not think that Dewey qualifies for inclusion per Wikipedia:MUSIC. Colinclarksmith (talk) 04:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Also, sorry to be so insistent about changing your caption, but I'm pretty sure that the photograph of the Mentors in both this article and on their own article features Ed Danky on bass, not anyone using the Dr. Heathen Scum name, so I'm going to remove the tag line stating Scum is on the top left.  : ) Colinclarksmith (talk)

I'm going to go ahead and move the article myself. It seems like everyone is okay with that. Colinclarksmith (talk) 04:06, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Removal of photo

I'd just like to point out that I removed the photo of The Mentors from the article. User Colinclarksmith has pointed out that the bass player in that photo is not, in all likelyhood, Broy. This IMHO, would be like the article on Ace Frehley having a photo of Tommy Thayer in Ace's makeup.Mk5384 (talk) 19:49, 26 May 2010 (UTC)