Talk:Steve Albini/Archive 1

Archive 1

Recording Process

I'm fairly confident that Steve doesn't rely solely on room mics to get his signature sound. He's well known for using them extensively in his work, but he surely mics each instrument individually and records them to their own dedicated tracks as well. 206.15.76.98 19:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

People From Montana

Um, if he's from Pasadena, but mostly spends time in Chicago, where does the Montana bit come in?

Comparison

The article states:

His playing style in the 1980's was often compared to that of Charo, lead guitarist of Black Flag.

Charo was never in Black Flag. Chavo was, but he sang. Greg Ginn was Black Flag's guitarist.

Unsourced claim

The above has now been edited to:

His playing style in the 1980's was often compared to that of Greg Ginn, lead guitarist of Black Flag.

which is an unsourced claim that in all likelihood is not true (see WP:CITE). I'll delete it shortly. --- Charles Stewart 15:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Drug Music?

From Engineering anecdotes, end of 1st paragraph: Another Albini trademark is his habit of generally keeping vocals "low in the mix," or much less prominent than is usual in drug music.

What's "drug music"? Is this a typo? {unsigned}

No, its vandalism. Fixed. --NightMonkey 00:07, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

List of Albini albums?

Can anybody start making a list of albums that Albini has recorded/produced? Then More can aid... {unsigned}

Uh, a wikilink is right there in the first section... --NightMonkey 00:04, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Albini with Fugazi

Can anyone find a source for the reference to Albini's work with Fugazi? I haven't been able to find one.

===================

There isn't one... wishful thinking on someone's part. Fugazi (at least credit-wise), are entirely in-house with Dischord.

couldn't someone just call him and ask? (j/k)

My only thought is that he recorded a live show in chicago or something...

In the Nirvana bio Come As You Are by Michael Azerrad, it says that Fugazi had recorded an album with Albini, but both parties were dissatisfied with the results. 206.15.76.98 19:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Albini recorded demos for In on the Kill Taker with Fugazi. - 203.194.16.97 01:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Photo

Can someone upload a photo of Steve? He's totally dreamy.

that's sweet, but it doesn't belong here. allow me to GTFY-

https://www.google.com/search?as_st=y&tbm=isch&as_q=&as_epq=steve+albini&as_oq=&as_eq=&imgsz=&imgar=&imgc=&imgcolor=&imgtype=&cr=&as_sitesearch=&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=

duncanrmi (talk) 14:43, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Italian ancestors

Any citation for Albini's ancestors coim' from Lombardy, close to Milan. In Italy we have regional family names, and Albini is a typical one from Milan and Metro Area. Also the other member of Big Black Jeff Pezzati have surely ancestors from the Milan Province. Both surnames are typicall of that area, and not diffused in othere regions of Italy. Emigration from North Italy started in the XVIII century, 100 years before the one from South, and the largest part of North Italians went to live in California and partially in the Lake District.

I've removed the information entirely as it's irrelevant trivia. SethTisue 13:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Hardcore bands?

"He has also shown interest in recording modern hardcore bands such as California's Trash Talk and Amsterdam's Vitamin X." Is there a citation for this, or is just gossip? NeutronTaste (talk) 02:32, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Albini's involvement in poker community

I can't believe this hasn't been brought up but steve was an avid poster (read in depth Q and A session) on the popular poker forum two plus two. the thread is incredibly long 50 + pages where steve answered questions for well over a weeks period. it's a great read

Death

If the death isn't a hoax, it needs citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.210.160 (talk) 03:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

^Look at the date, Einstein. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.50.225.35 (talk) 04:12, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/62/bbv4life/ask-music-scene-micro-celebrity-1586/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.104.242.4 (talk) 03:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Views regarding music sampling

It might be worth noting his views on sampling (as expressed in Copyright Criminals) somewhere in the article. -Grammaticus Repairo (talk) 16:59, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Cooking blog

Spotted in Boing Boing [1]: Albini's Cooking blog While it doesn't count as professional writing, his description of brussels sprouts haters as "the climate-change deniers of food" might qualify as punditry. / edg ☺ ☭ 20:09, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

http://www.negativland.com/news/?page_id=17

http://www.negativland.com/news/?page_id=17 41.204.78.170 (talk) 08:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Rick Moranis

It turns out that Steve Albini is the cousin of Rick Moranis. Rick will be recording his new album at Electrical Audio for free. In return Steve Albini will be getting a bit part in the new Honey I Shrunk the Kids movie.King of Bullshit (talk) 12:58, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Troubling past output

NOTE: In summary, Albini was not a pedophile, and neither was his friend Peter Sotos, both of whom you may have heard regarding their mentions of child sex abuse and Sotos' being charged with child pornography. Neither support sexual abuse of children, but rather are open about unfiltered discussion of it and similarly heavy topics, which have been motives for their transgressive art, including Sotos' magazines. You may have come to this talk page because of what a certain terrorist and political troll said about Albini on Medium. Neither the troll nor Medium are reliable, yet at least three users attempted to add the troll's post onto this article, all of which have been reverted. We have a section about Albini's character and a mention of Sotos and this is as much as the matter deserves. Do not add anything unreliable or make an unsourced claim, as it is slander. Carlinal (talk) 00:39, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

It's not slander. Albini is deceased, legally you can't slander the dead. SirWilliamWray (talk) 00:22, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

In any case it would be libel (written defamation) not slander (spoken defamation) SirWilliamWray (talk) 00:23, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Part one

Besides the better known stuff from his days in Big Black and Rapeman, which often included stuff about child rape, serial killers etc, he wrote for a lot of underground zines. In a review of his friend Peter Sotos's "Pure" zine (vile stuff about serial killers, child murderers etc) he said "I like that sort of thing", and in his tour diary from Germany he wrote about looking at (and probably purchasing) child pornography, which was still relatively easy to find in Germany in the 80s. Whether he was just being an edgelord or had an actual attraction to this material, it shouldn't be just glossed over. His interview from a couple of years ago with MEL magazine in which he discussed his past as an edgelord and how he's matured since then didn't mention this. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 03:58, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I see mention of this has been removed, and I don't advocate restoring it as it previously read, but it's not "made up nonsense". MaxBrowne2 (talk) 04:38, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

But then there are the rules that allow only secondary sources on WP.

Porn, with pictures of sexual acts between adults and girls or boys under the legal age, were NOT easily available in Germany in the 1980's. Something like "Teenage Sex" from Color Climax Corporation was sold in "sex-shops": adult girls trying to look really young, beautiful Traci Lords, not exactly petite, was featured once or twice. "Chick" from the Netherlands, a contact magazine with pictures and hardcore stories, sometimes (it said) had pictures of young teenagers. Outside of sex-shops, there were "nudist" magazines with pictures of naked children on the beach, etc.. I am sure, sexual activity was never ever suggested. There was and still is an active censor board in Germany, "for the defense of youth".--Ralfdetlef (talk) 07:57, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

The article was from 1988, and he was referring to the Dutch publication Seventeen. Can't say I have any expertise on this subject but apparently the legal age to appear in porn in Netherlands was 16 until about 1985 [2]. 16 year olds who looked younger were no doubt featured, and probably a few actual underage though this would have been uncommon. At these sex shops I'm guessing you could ask for retroactively illegal back issues of Seventeen under the counter, if you could convince the owner you weren't an undercover cop. (Traci Lords was a special case by the way, she looked easily 18 and used a fake ID). MaxBrowne2 (talk) 14:08, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Part two

See https://medium.com/@MoonMetropolis/now-that-steve-albini-is-dead-lets-reflect-on-his-admitted-love-and-promotion-of-child-fadf5072288e for an overview of Albini's pedophilic confessions, including this quote:

Jaded as I am, I can't help but flip seeing a girl and guy of twelve or thirteen, tops, ramming Martel bottles up each other's asses. These are not the Dutch equivalent of abused trailer-park kids, either. They look to be in excellent health and seem to be honestly enjoying this. Makes all the conventional arguments against this kind of thing seem really silly. They're kids. Kids like to play with their own and other people's privates. They're just being photographed at it. Now, people who get a voyeuristic charge out of watching them, like me, I guess, well, we've got some grip-on-reality problems. There's maybe 1% of all pornography that has any effect on me, and it's definitely not a turn-on very often. But when it is, and it's as weird as this, it’s pretty hard to take.

And this quote:

The cover of PURE 2 is a guy holding open a toddler’s puny hole so his spuzz can dribble out. The girl is past crying. She is destroyed. Like I said, I like that sort of thing.

This should be added to the article. 190.211.102.10 (talk) 11:51, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

You sound like you came all the way from twitter to mention this article and post this comment. You should remember that the Albini in the 1980s was a lot more wild than the Albini in the last ten or twenty years because the man chose to grow old and evolve as a person. The Albini you mentioned in this comment is the same guy who had a live photo of a split head as the cover for Headache, worked as a photo retouch artist (this includes viewing and editing out lots of gorey content), and named one of his bands Rapeman. He was a hardcore punk whose character back then was offensiveness for the sake of offending people, and compared to his contemporaries he's unexceptional IMHO. Those days are long past over and he admits his regrets. He's a lot more humble than you'd think, yet keeps the fundamentals of his code.

Your comment almost reads to me like you're accusing Kurt Cobain of pedophilia because of the Nevermind cover, which is also greatly ironic for a variety of reasons (see the Nevermind article for more). If you really think this is relevant maybe you should draft a paragraph about Albini's evolution in character and send a link when you're done. Cheers. Carlinal (talk) 15:54, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

How valid is the information given? The guy who wrote that medium article is a known alt-right troll (plus a convicted terrorist). Susrage (talk) 14:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Obviously the medium article is completely unusable, but the article should probably mention his problematic contributions to Forced Exposure zine nonetheless. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 14:19, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

So Steve did really say all that stuff in the zine and about Pure mag? Are there any other examples of problematic behavior? Besides those two examples, I know he was still friends with Pete Sotos and he was speaking positively about him as recently as 2022 Susrage (talk) 15:34, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I looked over one of the reverted edits mentioning Peter Soros, and then went to Soros's article for a mention of Albini, which led to a reference of an interview with MEL Magazine about him addressing his past use of transgression. It's a follow up to the twitter thread he did when expressing regrets over the Rapeman name, and I'm now further convinced a paragraph or two about his transgressive character should be noted.

Otherwise, is MEL reliable? Carlinal (talk) 23:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

MEL looks like a good source if we want to quote him from the interview. He said some very insightful things. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 02:58, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it should be included, given that the current sentence in his personal life section simultaneously jumps to conclusions and uses an improperly formatted external link to an unreliable source (Medium). Isthmus55 (t • c) 14:34, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

If anyone tries to introduce that medium article again it needs to be reverted immediately. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 22:02, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, that second quote is well out of context, per the link you posted there's *four paragraphs* between "She is destroyed" and "Like I said..." If you believe this needs to be mentioned then you also need to accurately quote him. Drjayphd (talk) 17:02, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Note that I have raised this at WP:BLPN. Albini was never charged with any sex offence, and his writings, however vile they may be, are covered by the First Amendment. This is just words, it's not appropriate to label him a pedophile over some shock-jockey stuff he wrote in his 20s. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 00:23, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for submitting the notice. I'm glad the weight of responsibility in language is preserved for this page.

Of course, with him now dead, another instance could crop up, but I feel it's unlikely. Carlinal (talk) 23:38, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not really sure, the pure article and the fanzine page are the only two pieces of evidence that I've seen so far. There's no other instances of predatory conduct on Albini's part, the only somewhat questionable thing is his continued support of Pete Sotos Susrage (talk) 23:47, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Both those articles were in Forced Exposure, the Pure review was in issue #7/8, the Tour Diary in #13. I think Sotos was more of a zine shockjock than an actual pedophile too, the focus of Pure zine was serial killers etc, usually described in wildly inappropriate language ("brilliant", "genius" etc). I'm speculating that the picture on the cover of Pure #2 was from one of the Danish or Dutch publishers who could get away with that sort of thing in the 70s before it was explicitly outlawed. There wasn't the same level of awareness of CSA, especially in Europe. CSA material just got lumped in with porn in general and was neither more nor less illegal than "mainstream" porn in most countries. Not making any excuses for anyone, just saying the culture has shifted. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 02:55, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

• So where do we go from here? A sentence or two along the lines of "During this period, his writings frequently included transgressive material of a sexual or violent nature, including at least two instances in which he appeared to endorse child pornography" followed by appropriate citations? Because people are going to want to introduce this into the article, so let's at least do it responsibly. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 21:52, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  I decided to get more involved with improving the article so I may as well discuss the section myself, especially since @Popcornfud also decided to revise this article significantly.

  The section should be headed "use of transgressive art" or "use of transgression" or something, and have two paragraphs since I believe there's enough info for these two halves to remain independent of each other. The first half discusses the provocative characteristics Albini is known for, most of which is already mentioned here before; lyricism at Big Black, the Rapeman title, his relationship with Sotos, zine stuff and all that. The second half is him reflecting on these characteristics and discussing a growth in character, including twitter thread and sequel MEL interview.

  This section is probably inappropriate for the personal life section and more in relation to the large views section, since it's more in relation to Albini's career of writing and recording, but I'm willing to hear more feedback on this. Carlinal (talk) 23:19, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

  This is a complex area and I haven't started thinking about. As with everything on Wikipedia it will have to begin with how reliable secondary sources are covering it. I'll sink my teeth into it sometime in the next few days or weeks. Popcornfud (talk) 14:42, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

  Also use the already referenced Evolution of Steve Albini article by The Guardian, August 2023. Discusses a buncha stuff about his change of mind. Carlinal (talk) 02:15, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

  See it happened again. Much better if we can address it responsibly and include reliable sources, instead of some random asshole coming along and doing their drive-by "Steve Albini is a pedophile" shit. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 14:29, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Why do people keep citing the medium article made by a convicted terrorist Susrage (talk) 16:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah. I swear, if this happens a third time the article ought to be semi-protected for a month. Carlinal (talk) 22:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Well whaddaya know, third strike. Article submitted for semi-protection request, I'll be damned if it doesn't get it.

  Jesus, is that post propaganda. I'm surprised no one added a link to MoonMetropolis himself, which should alert some users immediately. (How in the hell is his account not taken down? Regardless some damage has already been done, there's 425+ reactions on that piece of bull.) Carlinal (talk) 06:15, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Part three

This is a really shocking attempt to handwave away Albini's freely admitted consumption of child sex abuse material, which is perfectly well documented. See

https://i.imgur.com/Gm7otzo.jpg

And

https://i.imgur.com/9obDb08.jpg

Consumption of CSAM should not be glossed over by merely lumping it in (without even specifically mentioning it!) under the catch-all and vague heading "Transgressive Character". It deserves a specific mention. Elsewhere in this discussion I have seen someone suggest a line or two to the effect that his transgressive behaviour included admitting to consuming CSAM and I think that would be perfectly valid and appropriate.

One or two other points: you write above that "Those days are long past over and he admits his regrets. He's a lot more humble than you'd think, yet keeps the fundamentals of his code". This is all just irrelevant waffle from what sounds like an Albini Fanboy. If you're that non-objective on the subject you shouldn't be editing the entry. What does his supposed "humbleness" have to do with anything? That's totally irrelevant to the matter under discussion.

Secondly, yes he walked back a lot of his earlier obnoxious views, however - crucially - he never once addressed or expressed regret for the CSAM issue. In my opinion, this means there's all the more reason that it should be specifically mentioned in the entry.

Thirdly, I saw some mention in this discussion (don't know if it was by you or someone else) of the possibility of libel. There is no possible issue of libel or slander or defamation here as Albini is deceased and it's not possible in law to defame a dead person. Anyone saying this is incorrect, it's a total red herring.

Finally, it's clear you have a bee in your bonnet about the medium article and the guy who wrote it because he's a "terrorist" (if you say so, I know nothing about him, but I would observe that whether he is or isn't a terrorist tells us precisely nothing about the worth or otherwise of his opinions on Steve Albini). The fact is the medium article is objectively correct where it references the consumption by Albini of CSAM.

Albini's freely-admitted consumption of CSAM deserves and requires specific mention. Anything else is just whitewashing his reputation because he happened to be a very talented recording engineer who contributed to a lot of brilliant records and is a hero to many music fans for that reason. It's extremely dishonest. SirWilliamWray (talk) 22:04, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Alright, it's incorrect to say slander, but your claims are making a huge stretch of his complicated image. Yes, those are the paragraphs the terrorist referred to on his Medium post. Yes, Big Black's tour diary is (in)famous among punk rockers for Albini's writing (the diary also being briefly mentioned in Decibel). But there's a difference between words and meaning. Albini said that sort of stuff back then just to piss people off, and honestly, your comment is precisely the sort of response he expected then.

I also think you're misappropriating the definition of "consume" in this case. There's a difference between keeping and viewing child pornography and consuming it. Based on what I currently know with both Albini and his friend Peter Sotos, neither of them would count as consumers. Even if Sotos committed the immoral action of distributing some of that content, their view on child sex abuse would not be any more positive than the FBI. There has also yet to be any evidence besides these two scanned paragraphs/sections that Albini supports child sexual abuse, explicitly or otherwise, and there isn't anything I can find that makes his mentions of CSA exceptional among the rest of the subject matter that Albini discussed in bands and interviews. I theorize the main reason he never stated regrets for those paragraphs specifically is just that. It's not any different to the rest of the stuff he said then. So how could any of us be handwaving it? The article may be rough but I still think it doesn't exclude anything crucial to the point of whitewashing. It's okay as is.

Furthermore, I have yet to see a reliable source or publication that shows or describes the sections you posted through Imgur. Per WP:MEDIUM that post is unreliable, and its author would be very questionable regardless. Maybe there's a different source I haven't heard of yet, but it's best you make a new section at the bottom of the talk page asking about its reliability, or even be bold and add it into the article's body. Perhaps there's one by now. If my attitude back in May was inappropriate, I apologize, but even now I'm unconvinced by claims such as yours.

Your specific claim that Albini consumes child pornography is inaccurate to the point where, like some other users, you're giving out conspiracy. I'll even say that your highlighting of these paragraphs demonstrates an attitude I've been seeing lately among opposers to pedophilia, including before his death. It's obsessive, dragged and unencyclopedic. I'm sorry and I understand your discontent, but you're not adding anything useful. Regardless of whether I'm a fanboy I make sure to keep my records straight for this website as best as I can. The same can be said with many other fanboys of music here. If my comments on this talk page aren't appropriate enough, or if my edits on the article do not reflect Wikipedia's standards, perhaps you can prove me wrong by being a better contributor than me. If you can, all means do it. Carlinal (talk) 00:41, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

@Carlinal I completely accept that albuni said stuff to piss people off. But as I said he walked all that back with the glaring exception of the CSAM. This is a strong argument in favour of specifically mentioning it in the article. Furthermore, I would suggest that in the minds of many people there is a very clear moral dividing line between most types of transgressive art and CSAM. This is evidenced by the large number of attempts to edit this article to have that information included.

To be clear, I am not suggesting that the entry be amended to suggest he was a paedophile, but I think the CSAM issue warrants a mention. If there is context that should be included that people think is relevant or that explains or ameliorates his behaviour, by all means that should be added too. But at the moment the issue is just being skirted over which is why I think it's a whitewash. You can take issue with my use of "consume" but I'm only going on Albini's own words. A different word can be used if it's more appropriate. I have no particular attachment to "consume" for the purposes of the article.

I'm not sure why you are suggesting there's a conspiracy here. I'm merely suggesting that the article be amended to be more fully honest and reflective of documented facts that Albini never refuted or that anyone else (I am aware of) has suggested is untrue. Whatever wording is considered appropriate to avoid giving the impression he was a literal paedophile, or that gives helpful context, can be used. That's not a conspiracy, it's me wanting salient facts that people may not know to be included in the article. If there's any "conspiracy" it's one centred on the apparent determination to whitewash his past.

Re: the ongoing references to the "Terrorist". How is this helpful? It says nothing about the bona fides or worth of the Medium article and only serves to distract from the issue. If anything one might argue that it was reflective of a concerted attempt to undermine the content of that article for aforementioned whitewashing reasons. The fact of the author having a terrorist-related conviction or whatever is going on here is simply irrelevant. For example the wikipedia article on Osama Bin Laden's political views includes links to his writing including his infamous Fatwa. I believe he's also considered to be a terrorist. Should his writings also be excluded as a useful source? 93.107.93.67 (talk) 07:50, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Assuming this IP is SirWilliamWray, I'm confused as to why you decided to reply here without your username. But as for still thinking the CSAM issue is being skirted over, well, please know that, again, I haven't found a reliable source backing it up yet, which is what my contributions to this article boil down to. I'm following standards, especially WP:BLP guidelines, and I can't think of any rewording or additions that reflect Albini's paragraphs without a new source, I really can't. Your suggestions are repeats from your previous comment and if you can't think of any good edit for the article either, then the only option left is to talk or report about his paragraphs to a reliable source willing to listen.

Also, I already linked to the terrorist's article but I'm refraining from saying his name because regardless of his opinion on Albini, I still do not believe he should receive recognition for his posts on Medium. But if a good source cites his post I'll yield. Carlinal (talk) 13:15, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

@Carlinal yes that was me (SirWilliamWray), I don't know how I ended up replying while not being logged in either 93.107.93.67 (talk) 14:36, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Anyway on the substantive point, my final word because I don't really intend to spend any more time on this - more experienced Wikipedia editors will know better than me but I think there is a strong argument, which I have already outlined, to have the CSAM issue mentioned specifically in the article. Give it all the context and explication that is required and allow readers to make their own minds up or research further. Your own "theories" (giving him the benefit of the doubt, unsurprisingly) about why Albini acted as he did are irrelevant and should not affect the decision on whether or not to edit the article.

As it stands I get the very strong feeling that the resistance to including a specific reference to the CSAM issue is because of Albini's reputation in alternative music and the fondness many music fans have for him. I am extremely dubious that anyone who wasn't so respected in alternative music circles (and left-wing/progressive/anarchistic-leaning political circles) would be shown the same deference or given the benefit of the doubt.

There's a very serious lack of objectivity amongst editors of the article on the CSAM issue which severely undermines the article's legitimacy.

Do with that what you will (nothing, no doubt). SirWilliamWray (talk) 18:47, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I have to agree with Carlinal here; on wiki serious claims require serious sources, and the medium post is sooooo far from that, given its author. SirWilliamWray you are right to raise it here, absolutely, but as Carlinal says we are not breaking news and are tied into a standard of source reliability. If this breaks wider then of course it will be included here, obviously carefully, but until then you are beating a dead horse, and this wouldnt stand up at a noticebord. There are also probably legal implications from his family etc. Tbh, I am totally a fan of his production work and Shellac, but in general am not in favour of bios (living or dead) detailing allegations. Ceoil (talk) 20:56, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Medium is about as reliable as a reddit post and absolutely cannot be used as a source on Wikipedia. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 17:13, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and to point out this is Carlinal and myself's only issue. Our "own theories" have nothing to do with it, and I'm deeply concerned by some of the insinuations. Sir William seems to be caught in a range block atm, but if he doesn't withdraw some of the allegations against Cardinal, or accept that serious criminal aggelations sources only to a Medium post have no place here, might punt this to the RS noticeboard to get more eyes and a wider opinion. Ceoil (talk) 18:18, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

@Ceoil Again, that's fine about Medium, I totally accept that. I have never suggested using Medium as a source. Carlinal has made a range of statements and arguments that go beyond the issue of Medium as a source, and yes this includes his own theories about Albini's behaviour. Just read his replies to me, it's all there. He literally begins one sentence in a reply to me with "I theorize that...". That seems to me to pretty unequivocally suggest that he's bringing his own personal views on the matter to bear here, otherwise why mention it? SirWilliamWray (talk) 19:40, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

What Cardinal said or didn't say is irrelevant; that's just silly player vs player point scoring. This is about the inclusion of serious criminal allegations made on a blog by a well-known internet troll and convicted neo-Nazi. The consensus and policy is no, and if you try and personalise this again, rather than engaging in cold discussion, will be looking towards suggesting you are blocked....which I really don't want to do. Ceoil (talk) 20:06, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

@MaxBrowne2 I totally accept that. I am not suggesting, and have not suggested, that the relevant Medium article, or any Medium article, be used as a source SirWilliamWray (talk) 19:37, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Great. on the basis that the Medium source, on which all of this discussion hinges is unreliable, and there is no coverage in RS, suggest that this thread is archived. Ceoil (talk) 20:00, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Just letting you guys know I made my first talk page archive for this, so I may need some help here? Otherwise I'm gonna let this giant section lay dormant. I said all I need to say. Carlinal (talk) 22:37, 31 August 2024 (UTC)