Talk:Steampunk/Archive 8

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Futuristic Science Fiction

Vernes work is described as "Futuristic SF"... is that an accurate description? SF, yes. Not Steampunk, sure. But futuristic. 203.35.135.136 (talk) 00:21, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

What the sentence says is that it was futuristic "for its time," which it was. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 00:37, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

How so? It was set in the period it was written and extrapolations of contemporary technology. There was nothing futuristic about it. Not Steampunk, but not anymore futuristic than Wells's The Invisible Man or the average Bond film. 203.35.135.136 (talk) 04:52, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Exactly what about From the Earth to the Moon isn't futuristic? It was 100 years before technology managed to meet up with Verne's vision of manned travel to the Moon. That's futuristic. That's sci-fi. And because it used technology of that period (which wouldn't have worked, except in Verne's fantastic setting), it is in it's essence steampunk. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 08:03, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

They used a cannon. Standard tech at the time. That's not futuristic. It is science fiction. It's not steampunk except retrospectively. If something is obviously futuristic science fiction then you should be able to find plenty of citations for it removing a cn because you believe something but can't cite it isn't the wiki-way Duggy 1138 (talk) 23:46, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

The way they used it was futuristic. The concept of actually going to the moon at all was futuristic. It's like if someone today wrote about going to other galaxies with some novel use of jet fuel. The technology is today, but the approach and the concept are very futuristic. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 06:41, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

The concept is beyond what is possible today, doesn't make it futurist. That's a bias created by the fact that it has happened. Wells's Invisible Man was impossible at the time. It still is. So does that make Wells futuristic or not?

I don't believe you're correct. I believe you're claims are original research. Find citations or remove them, but don't remove the cns.

Duggy 1138 (talk) 12:28, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Steampunk for the Younger Generation

The following has been removed and readded a number of times in the last few days by myself and the new user who inserted it in the first place. Now, I bring it here for discussion so that other editors can decide if it is appropriate.

In recent years, Steampunk has trickled into children's and teen literature. The 2008 Caldecott[1] Medal winner, The Invention of Hugo Cabret (2007) by Brian Selznick, features a clockwork automaton and takes place during the Victorian era. The Story of Cirrus Flux (2009) by Matthew Skelton takes place during the 18th century and features a variety of steampunk elements, from mad scientists to pocket watches that put people to sleep. In Fever Crumb (2010) by Philip Reeve, young orphan Fever is adopted and raised under the leader of the Engineers, Dr. Crumb. Kenneth Oppel's series including titles Airborn (2004), Skybreaker (2005), and Starclimber (2008).

Manga is another way in which steampunk can be expressed to children. Hollow Fields (2007-2009) by Madeleine Rosca is an in-depth romp through a school for mad scientists, run by mad scientists who have turned their bodies into clockwork- and steam-powered machines. Other manga with steampunk influences include Steam Detectives (1998-1999) by Kia Asimiya.

The first problem with this is its tone, which reads more like a review, or essay. (Note: upon readding the material, Autumnrequiem said this was a "class assignment," which seems peculiar to me.) The second, and larger, problem is that this is all unreferenced. All of these book titles have articles, but only the Reeve book is considered canonical Steampunk, as far as I am aware. The Oppel series is borderline, and none of the articles or references make a good claim for this being Steampunk. The manga are never mentioned in this article, but Steam Detectives is included in the List of steampunk works with a ref., which indicates it's legit. The question then is, do we need to repeat it here? All of this should be discussed before the material is reinserted in the article. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:59, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

To start, I'm fairly certain you are supposed to avoid personal attacks...pulling my contribution because you feel that class assignments should not be on wiki is a personal attack. While it is true that the start of the contribution was in response to a college-level science fiction lit class assignment, that should have no relevance to whether it is legit or not. I included references to the pages of all books mentioned, as well as including external reference to the Caldecott award winner. How can it be claimed as unreferenced? Discussed...and reinserted. Autumnrequiem (talk) 20:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

You need to read the policy on personal attacks, because my comment most certainly is not one.

As there has been a great deal of disagreement on this subsection, I have once again removed it, and encourage all involved to discuss the matter here before the section is added to the article yet again. We need to reach a consensus on what material is appropriate and what is not. Furthermore, anything that is added needs to be sourced. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 13:37, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Disney's Atlantis: The Lost Empire

Surely a reference to this belongs in the Children section? 203.35.135.136 (talk) 03:05, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Not without a source. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 13:40, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Citation as Steampunk (I doubt it as it is already mentioned in the article) or citation as a children's film? Duggy 1138 (talk) 00:58, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Terminal World

Is there anything that needs to be said about Alastair Reynolds' Terminal World? Is it important? Does it bring new elements to Steampunk? Can we have some context to its addition to this page or just add it to the list page? 203.35.135.136 (talk) 03:17, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Steampunk for Children

The removed text so we can discuss it:

In 2001 Disney released Atlantis: The Lost Empire. Steampunk has trickled into children's and teen literature.[citation needed] The 2008 Caldecott [1] Medal winner, The Invention of Hugo Cabret (2007) by Brian Selznick, features a clockwork automaton and takes place during the Victorian era.[citation needed] The Story of Cirrus Flux (2009) by Matthew Skelton takes place during the 18th century and features a variety of steampunk elements, from mad scientists to magical pocket watches.[citation needed] Kenneth Oppel's series including titles Airborn (2004), Skybreaker (2005), and Starclimber (2008).

Manga is another way in which steampunk is targeted to children. Hollow Fields (2007–2009) by Madeleine Rosca and Steam Detectives (1998–1999) by Kia Asimiya are such examples.

The questions I think are as follows:

• Is this relevant/notable/important/worth adding?
• Is it true/citable?
• If we add it can we make it encyclopedic?
• Where does it fit?

Thoughts? Duggy 1138 (talk)

Worth adding

I'm not sure about this one. My gut says no, but I can vaguely see the point. What do other genre articles do? Duggy 1138 (talk) 00:55, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

True

The section seems to be based on an assumption. It seems to be saying "this are the earliest examples of Children's Steampunk we can find, so it's only recent." Maybe that claim can be cited, if so we should, or maybe the "in recent years" needs to go and just the facts that there is Children's Steampunk should remain. Duggy 1138 (talk) 00:55, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Encyclopedic

The original version was revolting, there has been massive clean-up, but it needs more. "Trickled into" eww. Duggy 1138 (talk) 00:55, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree, it needs a massive rewrite if it's to stay. Right now it just seems like a series of unrelated sentences. I also didn't like the terminology, "targeted for children" (sounds a bit like propaganda?) and I thought "Steampunk for children" should instead be "Children's literature" to be similar in style to the other headings in the section. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 04:47, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, but the article isn't just about Literature, why should that section? 'Children's Steampunk', 'Youth Steampunk', ideas? Duggy 1138 (talk) 07:50, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Because it's implied in the section it's a part of "Steampunk as popular fiction." [Steampunk] historical [fiction], [steampunk] fantasy-world [fiction], [steampunk] children's literature. Otherwise you'd kinda have it saying [steampunk] steampunk for children. It's redundant that way. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 08:51, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Children's Fiction. 203.35.82.133 (talk) 21:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Does [steampunk] children's literature [fiction] even make sense? 203.35.82.133 (talk) 21:11, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Fit

Is seemed to be in the right section, but not necessarily the right place. If we keep this some restructuring may need to happen. Duggy 1138 (talk) 00:55, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

BioShock

Can the BioShock series be considered steampunk? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.108.27.198 (talk) 13:19, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

See above, Steampunk in Video Games. Warthan58 (talk) 20:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Self-Promotion Creep

The "External Links" section and last few paragraphs of the "Culture" section seem to be a spot where everyone wants to add their name, or their event, or their website. While I certainly don't see the need to restrict the sections completely, we should establish some way of determining what should and should not be kept in. Should every convention with Steampunk as its main theme be listed? If so, then the list is not exhaustive and must be expanded. I suspect it's probably a better bet to reduce the External Links section to articles on other sites about Steampunk, rather than keeping as a list of steampunk events.

The "Culture" section is also suffering from a similar sort of creep—everyone keeps adding their pet event to it, and promoting themselves as part of that event. Is that what the purpose of the section is?

This is mostly frustration from seeing a perfectly good wiki article used for what seems to be event/personal promotion, rather than information.

Battlemonk (talk) 03:41, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Yea a lot of self-promotion goes on here, it's almost expected. I usually remove something if it doesn't have a reference and/or if it totally makes nonsense the flow of the paragraph or sentence it's in. Most new steampunk works (obviously) belong in "List of Steampunk Works." I think a rule of thumb that should be used on the Culture section is, if it's a past or recurring event that is notable, then it's ok, if it's an upcoming event, it's usually promotion. The last two paragraphs in the culture section are major, recurring events on the steampunk social calendar in California that are always being reported on in the press, so I felt they should be added. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 05:03, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Do you see it as necessary to include references (two, in fact) to the League of STEAM? That strikes me as clear self-promotion. Battlemonk (talk) 15:31, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Better? I had thought they had been mentioned in the first articles but after re-reading them it must have been another article I had seen where they were prominent. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 17:07, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Better. I'm still skeptical of the idea of including "the most recent event's guests were..." or "featuring such notables as..." because it's too much of an invitation for people to add their personal favorites (not saying that it's what you did, but that it sets up for the creep.)

Battlemonk (talk) 20:21, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Supposed discussion of Bioshock

In reverting a recent edit, RepublicanJacobite referenced a supposed discussion of and consensus on whther Bioshock can be considered an example of the genre. I see no such discussion or consensus above. Below are just a few hits from google on the subject - some express controversy, but the majority simply call the game steampunk. μηδείς (talk) 20:33, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Tor.com / Science fiction and fantasy / Blog posts / Bioshock, now ... Aug 14, 2010 ... Bioshock, now with 100% more steampunk. GD Falksen. Bioshock has gone steampunk. The teaser trailer for Bioshock: Infinite takes us from the ...

www.tor.com/blogs/2010/.../bioshock-now-with-100-more-steampunk - Cached Tor.com / Science fiction and fantasy / Blog posts / Bioshock, now ... Aug 14, 2010 ... Bioshock has gone steampunk. The teaser trailer for Bioshock: Infinite takes us from the depths of the ocean into the great blue beyond. ...

www.tor.com/function/bookmark/?content_type=Blog&id... - Cached Show more results from www.tor.com steampunk fashion - Bioshock....steampunk? Aug 12, 2010 ... The upcoming BioShock game appears to have a decidedly steampunk bent. A flying and weaponized World's Fair gone rogue above the United ...

community.livejournal.com/steamfashion/2753923.html - Cached Bioshock 2 Lets You View Steampunk Undersea World From Big Daddy's ... Apr 10, 2009 ... The first gameplay footage for Bioshock 2 gives us hope for the future of Steampunk, and of Hollywood. This is the type of gear-spinning, ...

io9.com/.../bioshock-2-lets-you-view-steampunk-undersea-world-from-big- daddys-eyes - Cached - Similar History! Science! Steampunk'd. Jun 26, 2008 ... But the big daddy (no pun intended) of Steampunk gaming goodness is Bioshock. The game has sold 1.83 million to date and has made a gigantic ...

news.gotgame.com/history-science-steampunkd/620/ - Cached - Similar The Steampunk Tribune: BioShock Infinite - the Steampunk sequal to ... Aug 14, 2010 ... Per IO9, I learned that the sequel to BioShock will have a distinct Steampunk flavor to it! The new release, tentatively titled "BioShock ...

www.steampunktribune.com/ - Cached Show more results from www.steampunktribune.com Third Bioshock Installment Fully Embraces the Steampunk Aesthetic ... Aug 16, 2010 ... I just got wind of this moments ago, so unfortunately I have little information - but what I do see is that the third Bioshock game, ...

steampunkchicago.com/.../third-bioshock-installment-fully-embraces-the- steampunk-aesthetic/ - Cached Steampunk Chicago - Steampunk Events, Fashion, Outings, Gadgets ... Steampunk Chicago is a collective of steampunk fashion, gadgets, Chicago steampunkers ... Third Bioshock Installment Fully Embraces the Steampunk Aesthetic ...

steampunkchicago.com/ - Cached - Similar Show more results from steampunkchicago.com Bioshock Infinite Revealed, Takes Place in Steampunk Air City ... The game they're developing was revealed today as Bioshock Infinite, and it takes place in 1912 at Columbia, an immense airborne steampunk city. ...

gamrfeed.vgchartz.com/.../bioshock-infinite-revealed-takes-place-in- steampunk-air-city/ - Cached Steampunk/Bioshock/Retro theme? 4 posts - 3 authors - Last post: Mar 16, 2008 I thought for sure there would be a theme based on steampunk or bioshock style, but I haven't been able to find one.

modmyi.com › ... › Skinning / Themes Discussion - Cached - Similar Bioshock PC mod? (steampunk) Offline. Posted: 05/20/2009 13:52:30 Subject: Bioshock PC mod? (steampunk) ... Offline. Posted: 05/21/2009 06:51:43 Subject: Re:Bioshock PC mod? (steampunk) ...

www.1up.com/boards/posts/list/37835.page - Cached - Similar is Bioshock steampunk or hydropunk 29 posts - 20 authors - Last post: 5 days ago due to an argument with a friend we are wondering is Bioshock considered steam punk or hydro punk and regrettably I kind of need evidence to ...

www.escapistmagazine.com/.../9.226069-is-Bioshock-steampunk-or- hydropunk - Cached Poll: Steampunk Vs Cyberpunk 35 posts - 29 authors - Last post: Apr 11, 2009 Much of Warhammer 40k is Steampunk, so is Bioshock so, yeah SteamPunk ... Calling Bioshock steampunk is also a stretch, no matter how much ...

www.escapistmagazine.com › ... › Off-topic Discussion - Cached Show more results from www.escapistmagazine.com Verbinski Leaves Steampunk World of Bioshock | Clothes on Film Aug 24, 2009 ... Bioshock does not draw solely from the movement that is Steampunk, though it is obviously a prominent influence. For the movie, potential is ...

clothesonfilm.com/verbinski-leaves-steampunk...of-bioshock/3869/ - Cached The perfect steampunk Bioshock style mask for Halloween Sep 16, 2009 ... Never mind those wimpy Spiderman masks or even the Obama ones because this has to be just the perfect geekie gamer type of mask for ...

www.inquisitr.com/.../the-perfect-steampunk-bioshock-style-mask-for- halloween/ - Cached - Similar The Age of Steampunk Aug 27, 2007 ... MOJIRA, on 05/17/2008, -2/+2Does anyone deny that this new interest in steampunk on digg is due to Bioshock? I'm not complaining, ...

digg.com/tech_news/The_Age_of_Steampunk - Cached - Similar The memories of our future: Steampunk in gaming May 28, 2008 ... But was Bioshock really a steampunk game? Purists debate the point. On the one hand, Bioshock re-introduced scores of gamers to steampunk ...

arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2008/05/steampunk-video...ars/3 - Cached

Livejournal as WP:RS? Give us a break...

If any of those "references" claim that Bioshock is "steampunk", rather than it's ever-so-obvious 1930s dieselpunk or film noir roots, it's just another indication of how clueless some bandwagon-jumping commentators can be and why it's so important to use reliable sources, not merely sources that agree with one's personal POV. As an example, I give you Regretsy. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:08, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

These are simply the first 20 hits at google when you search "bioshock steampunk". I don't vouch for the sources - but they are sources and your opinion is just that, an editor's pov. If it bothgers you, the proper course is to add a note that there is controversy, not to delete the controversial issue based on your personal opinion. Feel free to add a comment and a source saying that some consider bioshock in a different genre. This is an encyclopedia and should include all views.μηδείς (talk) 21:40, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

They may have been referring to this discussion, as well as numerous edits since Bioshock came out. Simply put, Bioshock is not set in the 1890's Victoriana world of steampunk, but rather in the mid-1950's, the setting is firmly art-deco, which is decidedly not a steampunk aesthetic, and nothing runs on steam there. The only real comparison between Bioshock and steampunk is that both are fiction and both are retro-inspired, but there the similarities end, regardless of what Google says. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 09:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Jonny and Andy. And I doubt that any of those "cites" above would pass the RS test. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 14:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I think a lot of the references are referring to BioShock Infinite, which has not been released yet and people are making assumptions based on the trailer. Certainly the first two Bioshock games are not Steampunk. ~ Brother William (talk) 09:11, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Additions to the Culture section.

The culture section talks about fashion, technology, and musical influences. However, there is a great deal more to consider such as sexuality, religion, politics, and other topics that have great influences on the Steampunk culture. These topics are hotly debated at the Great Steampunk Debate forum, and discussed elsewhere.

For example, the topic of sexuality is debated between those who wish to return to the positive Victorian ideals of Gentlemen treating women as ladies (minus the class system) and modern feminists who fear that Steampunk may promote the exploitation of women as sexual objects and 2nd class citizens. This is one of the issues that is at the very heart of the developing Steampunk culture.

Since I found no significant discussions on the other cultural topics, I wrote an essay for my own blog. I had considered editing this article's section about culture to add information about the other cultural elements; however, I thought that would be seen as self-promotion. I don't like self-promotion anymore than anyone else, so I submit my thoughts to the rest of the community to do with as you will. Warthan58 (talk) 22:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes it could use some further discussion on these topics but until a notable reference comes out, rather than various people discussing the topic online, it should stay out of the article. No offence but I wouldn't put your blog or Great Steampunk Debate into the notable category just yet. ~ Brother William (talk) 09:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Notability is subjective. I doubt the LA times is going to write much about Steampunk, nor will Universities offer Steampunk courses. There are already inclusions in this article whose notability is questionable including links to a blog for no other reason than being popular. I think there's enough notable material on the internet and in print, and I think objective authority should rest with the people who live in that community and not the PhD's that have the funding to write an esoteric thesis about them. But I'm not going to be the one to invest 200-hours adding content to this article to simply have it deleted by some random jack-wagon for "non-notable". There is a Wikipedia discussion about notability. Warthan58 (talk) 18:38, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I would add the show Warehouse 13 to the list of modern examples of steampunk. There are many pieces of technology that, while not necessarily steam driven, were invented long before modern computer technology that serve a similar or more advanced purpose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.174.7.62 (talk) 05:04, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

It seems that everybody wants to add example after example of all things Steampunk. There's no a lot of talk about the alternative culture (which is what it is), but examples of the cool thing of the moment. How can anybody understand anything by looking at a long list of examples? AppleJack12 (talk) 05:14, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Should Back to the Future Part III be included as a cultural reference which includes Steampunk? At the end of that movie, Dr. Emmett Brown (Christopher Lloyd) returns to the then-present day in a steam locomotive which has much extraneous equipment often found in Steampunk, which is ostensibly for use in time travel. He and his family are dressed in fashions popular in the 1890s. Bill S. (talk) 09:31, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd support BttF, not because it is the later more-developed form of steampunk, but for the influence it had on the later widespread adoption of steampunk amongst its fans. Similarly Dark City - it's not close enough that we'd consider it steampunk if released today, but talk to steampunks about their inspirations and influences and both show up quite heavily. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:21, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't support either of these additions (BttF and Dark City). In fact many of these just seem to be added because someone has seen something in a movie or game and thinks it "looks" Steampunk. It may, but it shouldn't be added unless there's a reliable source that has specifically mentioned the connection between Steampunk and the work in question. It's possible that this is true of BttF, but I'm skeptical of any reliable sources talking about Dark City in that way. AstroCog (talk) 14:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I recently obtained a scholarly article about the use of steampunk in westerns, which I was using for discussion in the Brisco County, Jr. article. I forget right now, but it may say something about BttF. I'll check later. This is what I mean by a reliable source, though. A scholarly article, a book (yes, there are a few just about Steampunk), and newspaper/magazine articles. AstroCog (talk) 14:08, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Emergence in kid's literature?

Despite "be bold" I don't feel a comfortable enough grasp of the genre to be sure, but it seems as if Eion Colfer's recent novel Airman ( http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Airman_(novel) ) might fit the bill. Chris Lowe (talk) 21:33, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Weapons in steampunk

I have started this section to get the generl idea of what people think of when the phrase weapons in steampunk is used. besides the obvious steam rifles and weapons found in the late 1800s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.237.14.28 (talk) 21:40, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh! You should definitely check out the weapons used in the levels "Scottland the Brave" and "You Take The High Road" from TimeSplitters: Future Perfect, namely the "K-SMG", but possibly also the "Kruger 9mm" and the relatively advanced "Harpoon Gun" (it's advanced for the Victorian Era, anyways). 67.10.112.12 (talk) 17:35, 10 October 2010 (UTC)