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Archive 1Archive 2

How the State of Origin Became a Regular Event

I still can't find any information to fill this section. Perhaps someone living in Australia with access to old newspapers can do something here??? Otherwise i'll look into it when I'm back in the country this December.

I might peruse my Rugby League Weeks, time permitting, see what turns up. -- Paul 16:11, 13 July 2005 (UTC)thrhrthrthettherhhrthhrhrhyhtyhtyjtyejtyjetyjetyjyjtyj

Eligibility question

The selection rules, as explained in the article, raise a few questions. For instance, how was Adrian Lam, as a Papuan, eligible to play for Queensland. Didn't he later play for PNG? Grant65 (Talk) 13:31, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

He actually had played for PNG before representing QLD. Not sure what the actual justification was for this, but since Super League players weren't considered for selection at the time, it was all hands on deck. Of course, he had played in QLD first, but there's supposed to be a rule, which I assume was in place then, ineligible for Australia = ineligible for SOO. There's been some other messing about as well e.g. Tonie Carroll & Craig Smith playing for NZ, Lote Tuqiri for Fiji etc. --Paul 17:25, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Request

Request for all drawn matches to be in white, not maroon.

These are series results, they're coloured to represent the holders, not the winners of the series. If you peruse the discussion and edit history, trying to merely represent these as draws (as they were) results in QLD-centric edits to try and make their record look better. It's even hard getting NSW's 37-36 winning record to stick --Paul 07:23, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

NSW had to beat qld to gain the sheild. Qld retained it and thus held title. It would not be representative of that fact to display the drawn series in white.

Note that the maroon refers to the series and not the individual matches. In 1999 game three Ray Warren very clearly says at the end that Queensland has won the series (Source: original broadcast tape). This formula changed somewhat in 2002 when he said that Queensland has "retained the shield". the sheild does not have draw written on it in those years. It has Queensland. You will further note that when the Bledisloe Cup series is drawn that nobody says that the Cup is retained, or that there has been a draw. It goes to the team that last won it. --dan, dan and dan 21:10, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

The problem was, or is, if you (or some other nameless number) start translating those title holds into actual series wins, that's where you leave the facts behind and wander into wishful thinking --Paul 13:57, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
In my latest revision I have re-written the intro to the statistics table in a neutral fashion that actually avoids either the Queensland or New South Wales view point. As the Wikipedia founder says, "an NPOV is absolute and non-negotiable". I do not mention series wins whatsoever as this seems to lead very quickly into a "Queensland says that..." or "New South Wales says that..." debate. I recommend the NPOV article to you.
Note also that sources have been cited in this section. Please cite your own sources in future.

Table - Drawn??

Uh, why does the table list every single year as having 'Drawn' matches - is that vandalism? or am I not reading it properly Astrokey44 23:52, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Yep you sure did read it wrong. There was nothing there to indicate every year had drawn matches. What you've done is leave the table looking incredibly messy. I'm reverting the table.
Ok then, well shouldn't 'Drawn' be a heading at the top, rather than written in every column? The table should have a title anyway Astrokey44 14:04, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
No because that would be incosistent with the rest of the format which is headed horizontally. The rest of the table is the name of the state as a heading followed by the number of wins. Adding the word drawn as an additional heading followed by the number of drawn games is consistent with this format.
Well shouldnt they have colons ":" after to show that the number relates to the word before it, as in New South Wales: 2 There should still be a title. --- Astrokey44 00:03, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
You can add colons if you want to. Doesn't bother me. Just don't screw up the whole table layout like you did last time.

Aylet Convincing Mcauliffe

I don't like this sentence...

The then president of the Victorian Football League, Dr Alan Aylett, later tried to convince the then chairman of the Queensland Rugby League, Ron Mcauliffe of the concept's merits.

Every indication I have from my research has suggested the role of Aylet in convincing Mcauliffe had no more bearing ont the result than the involvement of Hugh Lunn and the former bronco's cheif.

Furthermore, to sugest that Aylet 'tried to convince' Mcauliffe implies that Aylet was pushing Mcauliffe to start an RL SOO series... which is completely ludicrous. Why would an AFL cheif be so interested in a rugby league game? Aylet's contribution came when Mcauliffe specifically asked him for advice on how to improve the QRL.

Even if we forget a little thing like 'the facts' the sentence is very badly worded.

I haven't written anything in this article about it yet, but in one of Jack Gallaway's books it does mention the conversations between Aylett and McAuliffe, and also says that it was Aylett that invited the Senator over to WA to see the origin game. I will introduce this when I have time.--dan, dan and dan 19:46, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Statistics

I wasn't the one who changed this, but I think it is worth more discussion than to just mention "silly Queenslanders".

But who else would turn one game into a series, a 1-1 draw into a win - and the last edit added two wins to QLD games won tally out of thin air. --Paul 11:40, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

(i) On the Bledisloe Cup page a drawn series is shown as a win to the team that holds the cup. Note that this terminology is also used for the Ashes (which Australia will be deemed to have won this year if they draw the series).

This page?, can't see that - even if it did have any relevance.--Paul 11:40, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I see now the title of "Winner", "Holder" would be a better term --Paul 11:44, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

(ii) The 1987 Longbeach game is shown as an exhibition game, yet included in the statistics. It should not be as it is, as I just noted, an exhibition game, not a part of the series. This was also agreed upon by both states at the time. Although the NSWRL (and other southern organisations) include this win, it is not included by the QRL. At best it could be "disputed." --dan, dan and dan 03:45, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

A 1-all draw is not a series win, no matter much some would like it to be. The exhibition game, and the two experimental games are all bonafide games, and the QRL does include the 1987 game e.g Mal has 32 games, one of which was the Longbeach game. --Paul 11:40, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

The 'Series' statistics are merely yet another means, by this NSW controlled sport, to screw Qld out of recognition. No other sport does this. No other sport changes the rules just because of the results of several series where their opposition 'RETAINED' the trophy.

This demonstrates the point I made above. These spurious changes that twist logic, and have no factual backing, are merely to artifically improve QLDs record. I'm afraid they'll have to do that on the field. Good for a laugh though, the last one has QLD up to 14 series wins! Soon they'll have won more series than actually played. You'll also find that most sports will have system whereby a result is guaranteed. Personally I would been happy to decide it on for-and-against, as the International Rules series does --Paul 04:52, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Rugby League is Australia is far too insular and this can only result in demise.

As for your comments regarding relevance, comparing other sports to this sport is more than relevant in the context of my comments above. It is also more than relevant to achieve consistency throughout the wikipedia articles. If we can determine that it is standard practice to list a retaining draw as a win in wikipedia, that's all the argument we need to apply this same logic to this article.

The Bledisloe Cup page was poorly thought out, I've fixed it.If we can determine that it is standard practice to list a retaining draw as a win You'll struggle.. draws are, ipso facto, never wins (while you're at it, find some examples of how one thing is a series of things). 1-all is a draw, it cannot possibly get any simpler than that, even Barry Gomersall wouldn't count 99 & 02 as wins, but retains. One would think that 125 years of Ashes contests would have installed this concept securely in the most stubborn of minds. BTW, it's no longer practical, but Test series used to play games out if the result was in the balance, a cricketing golden point --Paul 04:52, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

drible drible drible. While i'm researching this further hows about you explain why you don't seem to think the statistics section should reflect the FACT that Qld retained the sheild on each occasion of a drawn series. Everytime stats reflecting this fact are posted you delete them. Qld had the shield and NSW had to beat them to gain it. Qld Held it. Those are the rules and that is why Qld players were dancing around the field and did a victory lap after those games. Because the rules stated we keep the shield. The ashes article reflects who retained the cup for each drawn result... or are you going to ahem... 'fix' the ashes page too?

The Ashes page, Australia 30 wins, England 27, 5 draws. See how they've differentiated between held and won? You have made no such distinction, and have been merely bumping QLD's series win tallies. So it's up to you to "fix" the Ashes pages, by waving the magic wand over the drawn series, and making them wins, but I doubt it would stick there, either.
I'm working on an idea to better portray this win/held phenomenon, it seemed simple enough to understand, apparently not simple enough. However, the one off games - they'll never have counted as series, and never wiil, no matter how much you would like them to. --Paul 12:28, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

OK. Now we're getting somewhere, but what is this obsession with only showing/promoting the results of the series? 1980 and 1981 did happen. If NSW had won those games we wouldn't be hearing the word 'series' at all. Why can't the results reflect the FACT that Qld won in 1980 and 1981 when only one game was played? The SOO still took place and NSW lost. Why should it make any difference if one game was played or 3? Other sports go through changes with regards to the number of test matches/games that take place within a competition. Those sports DO NOT exlclude statistics that arose prior to such changes to the rules.

You're using a technicality to exclude statistics that you don't want to see.

1980 and 1981 did happen As shown in the games list.
but what is this obsession with only showing/promoting the results of the series?. The series tallies reflect series won, lost and drawn (well, they did, but someone kept messing them up), essentially the essence of SOO achievement. The games tally represents the games (or will in the new page I'm working on), so this is where the three one off games appear. Pretty simple.
If NSW had won those games we wouldn't be hearing the word 'series' at all. That's your bias getting in the way again, not a good look, but an enlightening one. Remember the 14 series wins? lol.
Why can't the results reflect the FACT that Qld won in 1980 and 1981 when only one game was played? The SOO still took place and NSW lost. They do, see point one.
Why should it make any difference if one game was played or 3?. See point two.
Other sports go through changes with regards to the number of test matches/games that take place within a competition. Those sports DO NOT exlclude statistics that arose prior to such changes to the rules. Like pre-1882 Tests aren't part the Ashes, pre-1931 games aren't Bledisloe Cup games?. You best be off and make your "corrections" there, too. And I'm so very sure you're aware that the Ashes weren't contested for in the one off Centenary Tests, and even in the 3 Test 1979-80 series.
In closing, 1980 and 1981 were not series, regardless of who won, the Shield was not contested for (I very much doubt it existed at that time, the first games two were experiments, and only came about because NSW lead the series 2-0. In fact, I'm wondering if they just used the same one in 1982 and beyond as was being used before, if there even was one before - have to look into that), and no reputable statistician (or seemingly anyone at all except you) considers them as series. Spurious edits will always be reverted here. Also on that, NSW won 2 games to 1 in both 1980 and 1981, but let me guess.. rule changes do exclude these in this case. And you're quite happy to back the exclusion by the "NSW controllers" of the 1987 game too, because counting that would take away a QLD series win. --Paul 15:32, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the first two years of state of origin are not series.

Then why did you keep adding them to the series tallies before?. It was these actions that brought on this whole brouhaha. The games won (which included the three one off games, and didn't ignore them at all), and the separate series tallies accurately portrayed the situation. However, I'm willing to leave this as is for now. --Paul 07:04, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

My problem with the way things were was simply that these two matches did occur and you consistently insisted on removing them from the summary statistics. These were very important matches and they don't deserve to be represented only in the convoluted general match statistics. My problem with the drawn matches is that it does mean something to retain the shield and this was not represented in the summary stats. I'm happy with the way you have resolved this and i'm happy to keep the 1980 and 1981 matches listed separately from the series as long as they receive the respect they deserve and are shown with other summary stats.

For years the series statistics weren't even mentioned after state of origin bouts. In fact the first time I ever heard of who was in front on series was when NSW moved to pole position for the first time. I have a valid logic claim in suggesting there is a bias towards NSW. Just look at the grand final night games. Structured that way because it is a public holiday in NSW the following day! Look at any media reports eminating from NSW regarding SOO prior to 1986. There is still more money in NSW. There are still more residents of NSW. So who can blame them. But my point of view is justified.

Anyway, we have a bigger problem to debate. As you know the State of Origin page has been hijacked by an AFL obsessor. Grand65 has now resorted to complete vandalism of the article. As it is his contributions included a great deal of POV. Some of the information was innacurate. I just removed a section that suggested that fights frequently break out in state of origin matches both on the field and in the stands. You and I both know that is BS. We have to keep an eye on Grant65 me thinks. And the State of Origin page is due for a rewrite.

For what it's worth, there was no State of Origin page until I wrote it. We have to keep more of an eye on anonymous snipers who can't see past their own prejudices and won't sign their name, I think. Grant65 (Talk) 11:06, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

You're so far gone you can't even see your own prejudices. I see you've reverted on the complete and utter lies in the article. And for the record, starting an article in wikipedia does not give you the right to preach BS.

To suggest that "State of Origin" is a series and therefore pre-1982 statistics don't count is disingenuous. Everybody from David Middleton down counts State of Origin as counting in 1980. Indeed, this year there were "25 years of Origin" badges on the NSW and Qld jerseys, just as there were 20th anniversery badges on there in 2000. This is a matter of public record. Check it out. --dan, dan and dan 19:40, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

pre-1982 statistics don't count Seriously, how many more times can this be said - they do count. Do some research - NSW 37, QLD 36 draw 2, includes the 1980,81,and 87 games. The list of games includes the 80, 81 and 87. The list of series doesn't because they're not series - even the Anon-o-bot finally figured that out. --Paul 13:29, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
What I figured out is that you will go to extraordinary lengths to convolute and hide any data that you don't particularly like. So what year was it that NSW decided to retrospectively include 1987 in the statistics Paul? Jebus Christ 14:36, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Here Here! I will be checking this page every day to revert your vandalism Paul! As you said, at wiki, incorrect information has a way of sorting itself out.

Summary table

I have added the summary table and adjusted the year-by-year results table. Here is what I have done and my reasoning for doing it:

1. I have listed 1987 as being a 2-all series. This has been done because the offical records of NSW (as I have linked to them) in addition to David Middleton's records include these games. I will construct a footnote (or something) that explains the debate about canonicity. I am still looking for further sources on this front.

2. I have put the series summary table at the top. 1980 and 1981 don't count as series, and where never intended to be as such. Nonetheless, it is equally valid that Queensland were the State of Origin champions in that year. So where does that leave us? Queensland's "taking of the sheild" in 1980/1 is reflected in the year by year results (the big table). The (greater?) achievement of winning a 3 game series is reflected in the series summary table.

3. Drawn series are still listed in maroon on the year-by-year table. This is because Queensland has retained the shield in these years.

I am placing great importance on the use of sources. There has been a lot of discussion based on little more than opinion and heresay, so I think that this is an important approach to take. This page should not be about "Those Qlders will try anything!" or "Those NSWmen are just liars!" It is about making a page that, as the policy says, reflects published information.

Does this please everybody? Is it possible to put this debate to bed and get on with making a great article? --dan, dan and dan 05:35, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Could you add a title to the table? Im not sure how to do it in that whole <td> format Astrokey44 08:31, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
This 1987 game is going to cause some confusion. It is at best a one off game that is included in game statistics. If it were considered a series game that would have made the series a draw and the shield retained by NSW. We have it listed as a drawn series in Moroon. Not even the most hardcore NSW fan considers 1987 to be a drawn series where the shield was held by NSW. Int that year Queensland was written on the shield before game 4 even took place.
Furthermore the difference between the 1987 game and the 1980-1981 games is simply that the former did not have any impact on who's name was written on the shield nor on who was considered to be that year's champion team nor on the outcome of the series. It was in exhibition game. 80 and 81 resulted in Qld taking title and resulted in Qld being written on the shield in each instance. Jebus Christ 12:27, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
While I am not comfortable including the 1987 in the year-by-year statistics, the Wikipedia policy of using what is verifiable by sources makes its inclusion necessary. Please note that I have linked the footnote (see below) from the summary table and year-by-year table that explains the situation with the game's status using a variety of sources. We have to provide sources to back up what we put on the page, and the sources in this case come from the organising bodies of the sport. I have also, for the contrary view, provided links from a Courier-Mail article giving the contrary view.
The article also clearly states that the colour of the year in that table represents the winner/retainer of the shield. Therefore 1980/1 are clearly to Queensland, and 1987 is included in the tally, but it is clear in the article that it is a non-series game. --dan, dan and dan 21:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Fairy Nuff. Unfortunately the links to the courier mail articles don't seem to go anywhere. I'd like to see the section detailing the 'excursion' expanded further. I'll be back in Australia in a few weeks time and will see what I can do about contributing some usefull, sourced info since i'll be in a better position to get my hands on some old Qld and NSW newspapers. Jebus Christ 09:19, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


Unfortunately the C-M article isn't online, so the citation is to the printed edition. --dan, dan and dan 21:43, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Plan for this page

First of all, this section has nothing to do with the ongoing debates to do with the State of Origin page! :-)

I am planning on beefing up the history section, as most of it currently deals with pre-Origin. My plan is to probably break the history of Origin up into blocks that will go with the prevailing period. eg, 1980-85 for a Qld golden period, 2003-2005 is definitely a Blues golden period.

The idea is not introduce any bias, but to break the writing (and reading) into achievable chunks.

I am hoping to use printed reference material, which should eliminate the NPOV debates that have been going on. Two of which I have used, and already listed in sources.

I have already written a small section on the 187 Long Beach game. This isn't to fuel any debate, but rather to start adding to this page from recognised sources. --dan, dan and dan 02:01, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

There's no debate about the authenticity of the Long Beach game, indeed all the official rugby league sources (including the QRL) you quoted agreed, with only one uncited dissention - a newspaper. The fact that QLD weren't interested is hardly relevant from a statistical point of view, after all, NSW weren't interested in the first ones. Also, when I made the games page, I had envisioned a short description on each match - but my speciality is stats, so I didn't really follow through with them. So if you (or anyone else) feel like it, you might have a go at that. --Paul 16:41, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
There is debate about the canonicity of those games. I have cited four sources in this section. It was replaced with completely unsourced material. It is essential to the integrity of this page that we use verified material. Please cite your sources in future. As for the uncitied reference to the Courier-Mail, thanks for bringing that up. I forgot to put it in when I was typing the others. :-) --dan, dan and dan 19:25, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Please cite your sources in future They're the same as yours, the NSWRL, QRL, and ARL vs. something written in a match report once in the Courier Mail (is that what it was, there's no further detail)? Hardly constitutes a dispute. --Paul 16:42, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Found the article [1] The win was a victory to savour for Johns and his coach Ricky Stuart as it closed the Origin series gap. Since the series started back in 1980 the teams have now scored 205 tries each – thanks to Maroon full back Matt Bowen crossing in the dying seconds of last night's clash – and there have been 36 victories to each side and two draws.NSW may try to claim victory in the series by adding their win in the controversial 1987 Los Angeles exhibition match, but that was not counted in the outcome to the series that year.
lol, the 205 tries each includes the 1987 game, make up your mind. And note the argument is that the game didn't contribute to the series result, quite correct - but it doesn't follow that it also be excluded from the overall tally, particularly as it isn't by the governing bodies. So hardly a compelling argument, me thinks. --Paul 17:07, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for finding an online copy of this for me. I was struggling on that front. The first line of that article states:
IT took NSW 25 years to draw level with Queensland in overall Origin clashes
The headline also makes this point, ie. that the games are now 36-36 all. I haven't made this claim in the article now. It stands at 37-26. I have said that it is disputed, and you have provided the article that proves it is disputed. Thank you! :)
Very nice work Dan! Grinner 10:23, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Excellent. We're starting to look like a wikipedia article!
We are starting to look like an ad for Queersland NSWelshman 01:14, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

The Courier-Mail as a source? Please. The Courier-Mail is hardly an unbiased observor. Tigerman2005 3 June 2007

Typical Queenslanders

You're all a bunch of sore losers so you go and blame the ARL. It's not our fault you didn't take 1987 seriously. Stop vandalising this article. I'm ready for a editing war if you don't remove your footnote! NSWelshman 00:19, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

The article includes the 1987 game, and says that it is officially counted. The footnote only says that some sources don't count it officially. This is the last time that I will respond to people wishing to make changes without providing sources. The Wikipedia policies are very clear on using information that is sourced.--dan, dan and dan 06:31, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

TYPICAL NEW SOUTH WELSHMAN

NSWelshman, why did you vandalise this article by changing the colour of 1987 to Blue! Qld won the 1987 series. This is undisputed and I guarantee you, No source anywhere suggests it's a NSW win or held series.

Typical New South Welshman! Jebus Christ 09:32, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

This page in the Courier-Mail

On page 61 of today's Courier-Mail, this page (and some of its debate) is featured in the article Writing History by Asterisk.--dan, dan and dan 22:37, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Very Cool. Unfortunately, I can't get the courier mail here in dublin. Is there any chance you could give us the gist and the context in which we've been referenced? Factoid Killer 03:24, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Inclusion of the Exhibition Match

A question for everyone. I'd particularly be interested in hearing Grinner's opinion as a neutral observer.

I put to you all that in 1987 when the match occured, and in subsequent years until sometime in the mid-1990s, nobody considered the 1987 exhibition match to be part of the official state of origin statistics and that it's a game that has crept into the statistics in recent years.

I also put to you that in 1987 the game was not taken as a serious state of origin match. Furthermore, it was seen by the Qld camp as a bit of a holiday as they stepped into their XXXX sponsored aircraft and drank beer all the way to LA.

This is the sort of thing ppl I know and various non-credible sources that I won't bother to site are saying.

Assuming for a moment that these stories can be verified, what would this mean for this wikipedia article? Does it mean:

A) The stat should not be included because inclusion is clearly an act of anti-NPOV? B) The stat should be included because certain credible bodies include it. C) As B but a strong disclaimer regarding the controversial nature of its inclusion should be added?

Jebus Christ 16:56, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

What you are saying is absolutely correct. It was considered an Exhibition at the time and has subsequently become an official match. This is explained in footnote one on the page. What's more the Jack Gallaway reference talks about the drinking excursion on the plane.
In response:
A) the stat has to be included because it comes from the official sources (see sources at end of article)
B) those credible sources are the ARL and NSWRL, and are cited in the article.
C) the footnote is a disclaimer of sorts. this is what footnote one says: "The canonicity of the fourth game played in 1987 is disputed, as both states had agreed in 1987 that the match would be an Exhibition match only. In most statistics (such as those quoted by the Nine Network and the National Rugby League) it is now counted as an official match, although Brisbane's The Courier-Mail does not include it.[24] RL1908 lists the match as a "Non-series match" [25] and The World of Rugby League lists the match as an "Exhibition Game" [26]."

--dan, dan and dan 21:38, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Say, Dan, do you happen to realise that that last referenced site "The World of Rugby League" is mine :) --Paul 16:28, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, actually, and can I say that your stats pages are second to none. I have used that reference to say that game is considered to be an Exhibition, nothing more. --dan, dan and dan 20:59, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Since I was asked to comment, I agree entirely with what Dan hads written. By the way this is getting to be a seriously good article, well done Dan. Should be ready for a try at featured status soon perhaps? Grinner 13:12, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
In the interests of NPOV I too agree. This article certainly is shaping up. Full credit to Dan. If only the NSWRL and ARL exercised the same degree of NPOV! This highlights one of many examples of the severe bias against qld by the NSW based organising bodies of this sport. The verified and cited facts shown in a pragmatic and unbiased matter should be enough to point the finger of shame at these governing bodies. However, over the years, I suspect we're going to find ourselves in a number of edit wars.

Jebus Christ 14:30, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

It is a shame that league organisations don't have any interest in disinterest when it comes to statistics, isn't it? :-) Barry Maranta says in the introduction to one of the books written about the Broncos that the book in question was "told from the soundest view possible, namely one which emanates from north of the Tweed River." :-) Seriouesly, though, I agree that the facts alone tell the story of New South Wales' attitude towards Queensland without having to introduce to a non-NPOV. (Similiarly the story about Super League (Australia) tells itself through the facts without having to say "News Limited sucks arse", which was to a degree what the article once said.) As for edit wars, I think that we may have put one away for the moment. Fingers crossed. :) And featured article? I was thinking that yesterday actually. Good promotion for Origin and League. Bit more to do on post-1980 history yet, though. I am having a re-think about how to do that. The article is becoming very close to 30k, so maybe we can write a few sections on the main themes of Origin, and go into more detail on the Games and Stats page. One of the big holes in this article at the moment is the fact that Wally Lewis is not mentioned once. Even Ken Arthurson says no Wally, no origin success. Everybody's thoughts welcomed. :) --dan, dan and dan 21:58, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I wonder if we ought to add something along the lines of "That Queensland won the 1987 SoO series is not generally disputed." Assuming that this is a statement of truth of course. Grinner 16:30, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

The American excursion sections says this explicitly: "After Queensland had won the 1987 series 2-1,..." and "The State of Origin trophy was safely stowed in the Queensland Rugby League board room at Lang Park..." :-) --dan, dan and dan 21:58, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I've been dabbling in League stats for twenty years, this page was the first time I'd ever come across the notion that the LA game wasn't "kosher". (Also the first time I'd seen anyone refer to 80 and 81 as series, though we seem to have a concensus now that they weren't). I have a book published in 1988 the Ampol Australian Sporting Records which includes it as normal game. So, IMO and the NSWRL, QRL, and ARL's opinion, it's game without question - I fail to see any dispute. I'll also point out that in the foreword to Jack Galloway's book, being referenced as backup for a non-match claim, it suggests he's a "True Believer in the QLD cause" and his writing is "maroon-tinted"

One solution, maybe we should go back to Anon's 'years held' data. It was rather contrived, and didn't seem particulary relevant in a statistical sense, so I removed it (not knowing what it would spark). So there can be a "Holders" table (which will include 80-81), a "Games" list, and "Series" list (with would exclude 80,81,and 87). State of Origin is a series, that's why I've been keen to keep that intact. --Paul 16:28, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy is to use published sources wherever possible, which I have. Furthermore, the game is actually in all of the stats anyway. The only thing that you do not appear to like now is the footnote which is claims that the game is disputed. Gallaway's (note the spelling) book is from Queensland (yes, "maroon tinged") and disputes the game, as is The Courier-Mail. I haven't removed the 1987 game. Merely noted the dispute. If you have any sources that say this game isn't disputed, please cite them.
Every source except Mike Colman. And most importantly the governing bodies who actually have the authority vested in them, rather than a single journalist with an off the cuff whinge (and as I pointed out, who contradicts himself). BTW, Gallaway doesn't dispute it, merely glosses over it (as NSW won). It's included in the stats in the Appendix I Games played: 66 which is consistent with the actual tally at the time of writing.--Paul 17:45, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
You have said that you fail to see the dispute. That is neither here nor there. Wikipedian's should be writing about whether published authors or articles can see a dispute. Cited sources do not support your suggestions.--dan, dan and dan 20:59, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, and the Flintstones was a documentary [2], citing what is merely ill-informed opinion carries little weight --Paul 17:45, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Paul, simply put, the match is included in the statistics in this article, so I am not sure what you are so upset about. The footnote to the article says that some dispute it, not that it isn't counted. It doesn't matter whether or not you agree with who disputes it, it is the existence of the dispute that counts. End of story.--dan, dan and dan 21:50, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Footnote - Let's try and work this out here! This footnote appears to be the source of the consternation. the statistics include the 1987 game (just as the official stats I have cited do). Which part of this is wrong or in need of re-writing. Let's talk about it here, and see if we can sort it out.

The canonicity of the fourth game played in 1987 is disputed, as both states had initially agreed that the match would be an Exhibition match. In most statistics (such as those quoted by the Nine Network and the National Rugby League) it is now counted as an official match. Brisbane's The Courier-Mail does not include it, noting after game 3 in 2005 that "It took NSW 25 years to draw level with Queensland in overall Origin clashes..." when other statistics show the tally to be 37-36.[28] RL1908 lists the match as a "Non-series match" [29] and The World of Rugby League lists the match as an "Exhibition Game" [30].

Here is my take on this, that I have tried to get across in this footnote.

  1. The match was originally counted as an exhibition by both states. I am working on putting more in here, but that will not be until I have got my hands on some more stuff.
  2. Most stats count it as an official match.
  3. The Courier-Mail does not, as they said the tally was even when the official stats had NSW one ahead.
  4. Various sources name this match in various ways.

Without becoming a flame war or trolling war, which I have been trying to avoid at all costs, is there anyone who wishes to discuss this so that we can put something on the page with some consensus?--dan, dan and dan 22:50, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Update: I have found information on when the game became included in official stats. I have included this information, and Ken Arthurson's response in the footnote.--dan, dan and dan 03:46, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, since we all agree it's normal game, just like all the others, why the constant need to qualify it? Of course, we know why, which makes it non-NPOV. Put it this way, what if it wasn't in all the

official records, and someone kept putting it the records, along with a few comments wishing that it was was, would that cut any ice? Wouldn't with me. --Paul 06:27, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

The thing is this. State of Origin's governing body is the Australian Rugby Leage. The ARL says it is a non-series game (http://www.australianrugbyleague.com.au/). So whether you count list it seperately from the other 1987 games or not, the summary at the bottom should include it. And just because someone at the Courier Mail 'newspaper' says otherwise or Arko said something once doesn't change that. Nor does how Qld viewed it at the time. The players in the Rest of the World tests in the early 1970s thought they were playing tests but this was later changed by the official bodies. In the case of SOO the official body is the ARL which despite it being called a "southern-based organisation" has Qld membership. Everyone counts it for player's stats so you can't say on one hand its an exhibition game and then on the other say it counts as a game for Mal or whoever played. We need to get away from the idea that either its part of a series or it doesn't count. Yes the SOO for 1987 was won by QLd 2 games to 1. Then they play a one-off game after the series. I suggest:

1987 - Queensland 2 NSW 1 Additional Game - NSW 1 Qld 0 1988 - etc...

Either that or include it at the end. Tigerman2005

Yes I'm the culprate

Yes Paul, when I first started writing here, I added series statistics that included 1980 and 1981 as series. I was not aware these years were not full series. Can we move past this now or are you going to continue to bring this up in every argument?

I might say while Dan continues to include them as if they were series, it's an isssue, but I can't be bothered any more. --Paul 17:20, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I then tried to list the years won, to reflect what is actually written on the state of origin shield. You insisted on excluding held series and 1980 and 1981 from the summarised statistics. User:Jebus Christ 19 November 2005 UTC

Actually I suggested re-including that information, useless as it is (Number of Years With Name On Shield, haha), in order to prevent the Series tallies being misreprented all the time, but I've come to realise it's futile. --Paul 17:20, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Feel free to include "Number of Years With Name On Shield", because you will find that 1999 and 2002 are engraved with "Queendsland win" :-) --dan, dan and dan 20:42, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Yep. Typical Queenslander NSWelshman 01:11, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Origin since 1980 or 1982 on the main page.

There is no reason that Wikipedia would be the only place that makes a distinction between the pre-3 game series and the rest of State of Origin. The page as it stands makes things quite clear... ie what were stand alone games and what were series. There is no ambiguity.


Sources

Sources that record Origin since 1980 (as the Wikipedia should) include:


As the NSWRL, QRL, ARL are the offical bodies involved here, there is no reason to go against their conventions for recording the statistics.

Sources do not come more gold plated than the above ones.

Paul's Straw Man Fallacy

Paul, your entire argument surrounding the series is an attempt to divert attention away from the true argument. You are using the classic Straw Man Fallacy. Nobody is suggesting that 80/81 are series. Nobody is listing them as series.
You funny, you spent some time altering the series tallies, somtimes counting the draws as wins, sometimes the trial games as series, and sometimes both at once. Now you say "Nobody is suggesting that 80/81 are series" Good one. --Paul 14:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
So we regress to the ad hominem fallacy. You were consistently sculpting the statistics and removing those you didn't wish to see. But at wikipeida, logic prevails. If you recall, I listed the more than one series of aggregate statistic originally. I listed aggregate stats for each years winners from 1980-present as a separate statistic to your series statistics. But that wasn't good enough for you. You consistently deleted them leaving only the series stats. The stats YOU want to see. The stats that make YOUR team look good.

There is no reason to remove them from the general statistics.

Here's your Straw Man again, they're still in the general statistics - no wait double SM, as the colours represent the years held - except of course for your on again-off again 1980-was-a-series (which is it today?) --Paul 16:26, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The argument from this side of the table is that 80 and 81 deserve a place on the main page and shouldn't be excluded. Your response is 'they're not series'. That's like us arguing that 1+1=2 and you telling us we're wrong because 2+1=3.
If you had a logical argument as to why the first two years of state of origin history have no place in the general statistics area you wouldn't need to build a straw man!
<Takes a match, lights it and watches Paul's straw man burn!>
There is no reason to remove them from the general statistics. Oh deary me, here's your straw man - this is incorrect, they are in the general statistics, add them up. You've amusingly set fire to your own house. --Paul 14:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes oh deary you. they are in the general statistics, add them up. um... That's the entire problem! YOU HAVE TO TRAVERSE A CONVOLUTED MASS OF DATA! YOU HAVE TO ADD THEM UP. You're excluding them from the main article's statistical aggregates and listing them in a convoluted way.
You're excluding them from the main article's statistical aggregates Still wrong. NSW 37,QLD 36,DRAWN 2 - THEY'VE ALREADY BEEN ADDED UP FOR YOU (except you keep removing them) AND THEY INCLUDE 1980, 1981 (and 1987). Get it? There's three sets of data, the overall record, the series tallies, and the game results. The last one I put on a separate page because when I expanded the detail it made it very large. But as mentioned below, I can put it back, if helps you figure out these simple concepts. --Paul 16:26, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

As a Brit I've been watching this argument for a while. I do think that 1980 and 1981 should be included, but listed sperately. The argument that 2005 was celbrated as 25 years of SoO is very persuavive for mine. Grinner 15:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

This is precisely how I have it, the games are separate from the series. The idea behind including the first two games (marooned coloured, to imply a series win/hold) is to make QLD record look better. Notice how the 4th 1987 game never gets included in all the reverts? --Paul 14:10, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
The standard set by the ARL, NSWRL and QRL is to include all of the results from 1980 to 2005 in the one table. The source for this is shown in the links above. David Middleton (official statistician of the NRL) does the same thing in his annual Rugby League statistics publication. There are no sources that show it the other way, or make any arguments for this.
That should be the end of the matter.--dan, dan and dan 21:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Fer' crying out loud - that's what the Rugby league State of Origin games page does, which I've pointed out ad nauseam, seemingly to little readership. Geez. If this is so difficult to understand, should they be moved it back to this page? Lots of Wikipedia articles have sub pages you know. (And you still omit the 1987 game, when it's shown in all those links you've pointed out.) --Paul 16:26, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, another revision shows it's still not sinking in, so I've got another idea - put all the stats on the one page - one can hardly say the list of games aren't there when they're staring you in the face (as opposed to now, where you have to go to all the trouble of clicking a link to see them). But why do I get the feeling that anything that shows NSW's winning game and series record will edited out, as it is now? --Paul 16:58, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
You have re-edited the table, removing two years from it. You also removed material with three separate cited sources. The material as it stands is as the ruling bodies of the game deem it. You appear to be placing your personal opinion higher than the conventions used by the body. Please stick with cited sources in future.
You might like to read about verifiability. The very first line says "Wikipedia should only publish material that is verifiable and is not original research." what is presently on the page has been verified by external sources. What you are putting on there, as it is your own work or opinion, is original.
Please cite sources in future.--dan, dan and dan 19:36, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Do you actually read anything I write? The table is intended to show the series results (Thats why it says Series, not Games) - the 80, 81 and 87 games weren't part of a series, and therefore are absent. You keep ignoring this qualification, and then claim that 80 and 81 aren't in there. IT'S NOT INTENDED TO BE A LIST OF ALL THE GAMES 1980-2005, that's what the separate games list (now page, which I see you're in the process of buggering up) does. I was going to expand that, but I realised it will just be mucked up, so there's little point. I wouldn't have wasted my time on it originally, had I known. --Paul 15:35, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
As stated several times, you need to start that table from 1980, not 1982. Please cite your sources for doing otherwise. The way I have listed that table exactly mirrors the NSWRL way of doing it. I have cited that. You continue to make reference to your opinion, not cited sources. In future, please just refer to the sources.--dan, dan and dan 20:40, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
exactly mirrors the NSWRL way of doing it No it doesn't [3] <- This a list of games, as covered in Rugby league State of Origin games. My table was not intended to portray this (the aforementioned page does so) but the series results. Why do you keep ignoring this, over and over? --Paul 17:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
The way you listed the table attempts to make the games look like series wins. The way the tables are listed in your sources lists all games individually. Your table lists them year by year. It makes it look like they are series wins! NSWelshman 01:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I've pointed that out, seemingly hundreds of times, but it's not having any effect. --Paul 17:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
The table says "The table below shows the results of the one-off games of 1980/1981, and the subsequent series." at the very top. Which part of that is ambiguous?--dan, dan and dan 09:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
No ambiguity now, i.e the one-offs games aren't shown as series, but I'm guessing there will be again shortly. --Paul 06:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
They were never shown as series. That is a deliberate misrepresentation of your own.--dan, dan and dan 20:44, 26 November 2005 (UTC)


They are very clearly listed as one-off games. Furthermore, sources have been provided for this format, namely the ARL and NSWRL. Please refrain from vandalising the page, even in jest.--dan, dan and dan 06:27, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism seems to have ceased.

I haven't contributed to this article yet but I have been keeping a close eye on it ready to pounce on anyone inciting vandalism. I'm happy to see this hasn't occured. Dan's additions have made the article look very professional.

I will be continuing my vigil just in case anyone was laying low for a while and hoping to come back!Factoid Killer 11:13, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, there's only so many times you can say something and have it ignored. I often come to Wikipedia after playing online games - also rife with the clueless. Wears you down. My energy is now directed at cricket - QLD don't have a Test team, so hopefully it'll be safe. --Paul 12:07, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Sounds like an omission of guilt to me!

Wally Lewis

I know its been mentioned before, but why for example is there reference to the "Steve Mortimer lead Blues" and yet Wally Lewis is not mentioned even once??

There should be virtually a seperate paragraph on Wally's impact on the Series and his place in its lore --195.171.131.151 11:35, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Sofixit Factoid Killer 22:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

State of Origin page

This has probably been discussed and put to rest, but I really do think that this page should be at State of Origin with links to AFL and English version at the top. "State of Origin" in google brings up no AFL (or English for that matter) in the first page of searches unless you count the Wiki/about article. Seriously, when anyone refers to State of Origin it almost always means the RL series, and its dubious that the English games are really known as State of Origin, as the proper name is actually the War of the Roses, the SOO name was probably applied by people when spoken of in comparison to the Australian version. I don't know, it's just annoying that the current State or Origin page is a disambiguation sort of mess, and the fact that Rugby League State of Origin is not the proper name. Hmmm, I will probably get owned for this, but I thought I might see what other people think... Cvene64 12:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The SoO page is about the concept itself, which was not developed or first implemented in rugby league. I can assure you that it is a very well-known concept in Aussie rules circles, and was extremely popular with AFL fans when the very best players took part. Its decline — IMHO enginereed by a few club coaches and administrators — still rankles with many people. What is the problem in people having to make one extra click to this page, from SoO? Grant65 | Talk 12:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Series Wins

According to the ARL the two draws where Qld held the title ARE considered to be SERIES WINS!

http://www.australianrugbyleague.com.au/index.cgi?det=1&intArticleID=357&sID=21

This article states that in 2006 Qld has WON the series for the first time since 2002! I have adjusted the stats accordingly. 194.46.238.124 23:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

The series in 1999 & 2002 were both Drawn 1-1. Source listed above is a dead link. Here is a link to the correct data: http://stats.rleague.com/rl/soo/soo_idx.html

Team article names

I didn't get much of a response from the team's talk pages, so I'll try here.

At the moment we have Queensland State of Origin Team and New South Wales Rugby League team. I propose we rename, possibly to:

(this would align with Australia national rugby league team) -- Chuq 09:29, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

That is a very senssible suggestion. Grant65 | Talk 10:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Last year I created a Queensland Rugby League team page, but somewhere along the way it is been "unlinked" to.--dan, dan and dan 11:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Very weird, I'm quite surprised the two articles have lasted this long without merging! I've put the appropriate tags on them. Queensland State of Origin Team is the "target" page, solely because it has the largest edit history. I'll leave the page moves mentioned above for a bit more discussion. -- Chuq 11:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

no tags on either page now I think Queensland Rugby League Team and New South Wales Rugby League Team would be good names. No need for the word "state". It'd be inappropriate to call them "Queensland/NSW state of origin team", as you could not include any historical team info prior to the change to origin selection rules.

Footnotes

>Media and governing bodies in Queensland (Queensland Rugby League, The Courier-Mail) include the match in individual player tallies,
>but not in the overall tally
This doesn't really make sense, what is it supposed to mean?

It means that the LA match is included in personal statistics, but not in overall state v. state statistics.--dan, dan and dan 00:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Exactly the point, that doesn't make sense.
Either way, that is what the organisation does.--dan, dan and dan 03:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Popularity in The Region (not just Australia)

I think it should be mentioned that State of Origin matches are very high-rating sports events in New Zealand also and following in Papua New Guinea is fanatical. It may well be PNG's most popular sports event.--Jeff79 05:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Proof exhibition match is disputed

Here is further proof that the exhibition match is disputed. Disputing it is none other than Ken Arthurson. Case closed. 


Courier Mail, Edition 1 - First with the news 
WED 16 JUL 2003, Page 001 
Origin battle rages on and off the field 
By: Barry Dick

WHO would have thought it -- former ARL chairman Ken Arthurson has come to the defence of the Maroons. While the Australian Rugby League and Blues say the Origin series score is 33-33, Queensland says it's 33-32 because an exhibition match 16 years ago in the US did not officially count.

However, the ARL yesterday officially decreed the ``Mickey Mouse game in Long Beach, California, on August 6, 1987, was to be classed as a legitimate match.

NSW won the game 30-18 after Queensland had won the series 2-1 ARL chief executive Geoff Carr yesterday ``confirmed NSW and Queensland were ``locked on 33 wins each heading into tonight's third match of the 2003 series at Suncorp Stadium.

``There had been some debate over whether the Origin fixture . . . in 1987 was counted as an official match but a search of ARL records has confirmed the status conferred on that clash by the game's governing body at the time, Carr said.

``In announcing the match in Big League in April 1987, Ken Arthurson was quoted as saying: `It's an exciting experiment but the match isn't and won't be billed as an exhibition match'.

But Arthurson, who was blamed for dudding Queenslanders out of Test selection during his reign, yesterday backed the Maroons: ``There is absolutely no doubt in my mind it was an exhibition game and should not count towards official match scores.

Wayne Bennett, who coached the 1987 Queensland team, said that in his coaching career of more than 20 years he had never been ``softer on a team than he was on the Maroons in Los Angeles.


--dan, dan and dan 04:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

confirmed the status conferred on that clash by the game's governing body at the time So it's always been an official match (obviously it has). Wasn't somebody making up something up about it suddenly becoming official, some years later April 1987, Ken Arthurson was quoted as saying: `It's an exciting experiment but the match isn't and won't be billed as an exhibition match So it's status was known even before it was played. You're mistaking opinion for fact, it's always been an official match, and has always counted in the records.So thanks for clearing that up so conclusively, i've made the appropiate changes --Paul 06:14, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Paul you have not acted in good faith as your last revision has taken out 1980/81 without sources. Furthmore, 1987 was already included in our stats here at Wikipedia as official, there was a footnote saying it was disputed, which it is. The source above disputes the canonicity, not refutes. I can only assume that your changes are vandalism, as they are contrary to sources, and they will be treated as such henceforth.--dan, dan and dan 06:49, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
taken out 1980/81 Wrong - 80,81 and 87 were there, but as usual you ignore anything I write, and as usual dont address any specific points I make. The ARL, NSWRL, and QRL all consider 80, 81 and 87 as the same as the other 74 games, in what language is that a dispute? Why you think any other sources have any authority in the matter is beyond me. the source above disputes the canonicity, not refutes Then why are "asterisking" the games won tallies? Either its all good (as in fact it is), or someone *is* refuting - these people are merely expressing an ill-informed opinion, and have no say in the matter. changes are vandalism You may remember, I made the table to start with, it's my work that was defaced and continues to be so.--Paul 13:29, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Paul, I have read all of your writing. Like some of the other work that has been on this page (eg, eligibility) it is factually incorrect. To address what you have just said:

  1. "The ARL, NSWRL, and QRL all consider 80, 81 and 87 as the same as the other 74 games": Untrue. The QRL includes this match in player records, but not the interstate tally. The QRL has authority. This is sourced. Your assertion is unverified. Read Wikipedia:Verifiability. Regardless of what you think of the Courier-Mail sources, it says in black and white on the policy page "One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they should refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by a reputable publisher." Write back to me when you have read and understood this. Until then, your current edit war will be considered nothing other than vandalism.
  2. Why have a footnote? To show that there is a dispute. There are three sources for the dispute. You are removing them for no reason. See Wikipedia:Verifiability
  3. Vandalism: Regardless of who orginally wrote the pages, removing verified, factually correct material is vandalism.

--dan, dan and dan 20:40, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

--dan, dan and dan 06:49, 26 November 2005 (UTC)--dan, dan and dan 06:49, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

There seems to be a mistake in the American Controversy section. It's got a quote from Ken Arthurson, then the next sentence says "Ken Arthurson disputed this, saying...". Is the wrong name on one of those quotes? Or should it say "Ken Arthurson later contradicted himself, saying..."?--Jeff79 22:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Ken Arhturson later expressed a different opinion.--dan, dan and dan 05:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

State against state, mate against mate

When and by whom was this tagline first used? And can we find the right place to put it into the article? I think it should be mentioned as it reflects a great deal of what State of Origin is all about.--Jeff79 02:19, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

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