Talk:Stanisław Potocki (1659-1683)

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Requested move 30 August 2024

It has been proposed in this section that multiple pages be renamed and moved.

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– For alignment with WP:NCPDAB, especially to remove the lifespan ranges (especially the one using a hyphen). These people have more specific titles (szlachcic, voivode, etc.), but I think they are not used in English, so I am just suggesting "Polish noble" for all of them. For one of these, we have the birth year, but for the others we do not, so it may be best to consistently use the death year for all of them. Note that Stanisław Potocki (1734–1802) redirects to Józef Potocki (1734/35–1802). This seems to be an artefact of a previous error; see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 13#Stanisław Potocki (1734–1802). Note that there is also a non-disambiguated Józef Potocki. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:02, 30 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Bobby Cohn (talk) 15:29, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As in the Jan Działyński (1590-1648) case, I strongly suggest to use their highest title. In the Kingdom of Poland, and later in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, there existed a relatively stable hierarchy of senatorial offices (bishops, voivodes, greater castellans, lesser castellans). Below them were offices that did not grant a seat in the Senate (from these, generally only starosts gain notability on Wiki). These titles have fairly commonly accepted translations into English. Therefore, among those you mentioned, we should change to:

Marcelus (talk) 09:00, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Side note: we also should keep in mind that this "titles" aren't aristocratic titles, but name of the offices they held. Marcelus (talk) 09:02, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BarrelProof I checked and we can move Józef Potocki (d. 1723) to Józef Felicjan Potocki, as this was his full name. Marcelus (talk) 12:26, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But not his common name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:44, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Wikipedia WP:AT / WP:NCP does not include middle names if they are only being included for disambiguation purposes. They are only included if they are part of the common name. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 14:45, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Necrothesp, @BarrelProof they are part of his common name, that's how he is called in the Polish Biographical Dictionary. Marcelus (talk) 18:26, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK; no objection. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, of course he is. Anyone is in a biographical dictionary. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:45, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If we use role descriptions, I think "starost" and "voivode" should be lowercase. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:31, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good note Marcelus (talk) 22:32, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. I'm not generally keen on using the names of offices as disambiguators. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, but 'Polish noble' is only an apparent disambiguation, as it applies to every case mentioned. So, it's actually more practical to leave only '(died 1760)', etc. Marcelus (talk) 12:20, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We generally try to avoid doing that. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:44, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly, and that's what you get if you use non-specific disambiguator such as "Polish noble". They all are Polish nobles! Marcelus (talk) 18:28, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose use of "Polish noble", as it doesn't reduce the ambiguity at all. Just the death date is acceptable, and I think better than the Polish office terms that will be cryptic to most readers of English. Dicklyon (talk) 05:21, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Relister's comment: ~~seems to be consensus against using the office titles in the page names for all pages,~~ (disputed below, so I've stricken to allow continued conversation) and there seems to be consensus for Józef Potocki (d. 1723) to Józef Felicjan Potocki (though I will wait to complete this move so as to close all at once). Relisting to see if there is consensus for the following pages, listed here as nominated:

Thanks, Bobby Cohn (talk) 15:29, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have the impression that we have a consensus that using 'Polish noble' doesn't really make much sense. So at this point, the main issue is whether to use the date of death or the name of the office, such as 'voivode,' 'starost,' 'hetman,' etc. I lean towards the latter, but I don't oppose the former solution. Marcelus (talk) 06:51, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Stanisław Potocki (1659-1683) → Stanisław Potocki (starost of Halicz), Stanisław Potocki (died 1760) → Stanisław Potocki (voivode of Poznań), Józef Potocki (1734/35–1802) → Józef Potocki (starost of Leżajsk) and Józef Potocki (d. 1723) → Józef Potocki (starost of Bełz), per Marcelus, paired with the creation of a Józef Potocki (disambiguation) page that would list, analogous to the Stanisław Potocki disambiguation page, the primary Józef Potocki as well as Józef Potocki (starost of Bełz) and Józef Potocki (starost of Leżajsk). As for terms being cryptic to users, various noble and governmental titles that may not be known to English speakers are used as parenthetical qualifiers for English Wikipedia entries covering all linguistic groups. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:15, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have consensus that Józef Potocki (d. 1723) should be moved to Józef Felicjan Potocki. Marcelus (talk) 17:40, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since Polish Wikipedia does indeed list Józef Potocki (d. 1723) / Józef Potocki (starost of Bełz) as Józef Felicjan Potocki, I would likewise support this alternative option. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:18, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]