Talk:St Cross College, Oxford

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name

"Ultimately" is your view. There is a cross, then a "holy cross", then a "st cross", then a church called st cross, then a road called st cross road, then a college on st cross road, then a st cross college and then a crest that matches the name. Please respect other sensitivities in the college and the intentions of the founders of the college. Please do not give a religious character to St Cross; it is not a PPH. 15/03/07 Vanuatu92

Please respect the fact that the college is not religiously affiliated. The name was NOT given as a religious meaning but because of the location of the early buildings. Vanuatu92

Anyone know the colours from the scarf? – Kaihsu 16:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All right, they are added now, but the width and proportion might be wrong. – Kaihsu 15:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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St Cross College is not a constituent college of the University of Oxford

St Cross College is not a constituent college of the University of Oxford nor is it a permanent private hall, but it is rather a society or department of the University that calls itself a college. It is indeed a graduate college, but it is not a constituent college because it does not have a Royal Charter and is dependent on the University. You can find this spelled out in the University Statutes and Regulations as follows: https://www.admin.ox.ac.uk/statutes/regulations/517-122.shtml

This is not a secret, but it is not well known. St Cross admits this on its on webpage as follows:

"St Cross is one of the smaller graduate colleges at Oxford, with one of the smallest endowments (less than £8m). To all intents and purposes we operate as a College with a governing body, however, we are still a department of the University. This is the primary reason for asking you today to consider making or changing your Will to benefit the endowment of St Cross. Our aim is to become independent but we have some way to go before the College can be eligible for Royal Charter status." Link: https://www.stx.ox.ac.uk/alumni/support-st-cross/legacy

In effect, St Cross is a graduate college that is legally a society of the University. The correct wording for this article would be "St Cross College is a graduate college of the University of Oxford. Somewhere could be added: It is not a constituent college, but rather a society of the University and is thus not an independent college with a Royal Charter (as are all constituent college of the University), but remains subject to University oversight until such time in the future that it achieves Royal Charter. --IACOBVS (talk) 08:36, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See discussion below. While St Cross is not a "college of the University" by statute and rather a "society of the University", the term constituent college is not an official term used by the University of Oxford. All colleges, societies, and Permanent Private Halls designated by University statute are constituent members. St Benet's Hall refers to itself as a "constituent body" of the University. Thus, I see no reason now to deny this designation to Cross. My objection is thus withdrawn. --IACOBVS (talk) 22:29, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Constituent college?

St Cross College should be described in the article as a constituent college? In practice they are a college, and are named "College", but according to the University statuses, they are a society, not a college.--MiguelMadeira (talk) 12:56, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest amending the opening sentence to say that St Cross is a constituent college of the University of Oxford, but adding another sentence at the end of the first paragraph to say that St Cross does not have a royal charter and is therefore formally a society rather than a college of the university. The Kellogg article could be amended similarly.

The Administration section of the article already gives more detail on formal status of St Cross as a society.

I agree that St Cross is formally a society, not a college. However, I think it is reasonable to describe St Cross as a college as the organisation section of the university's main website says "There are 38 Oxford colleges", which includes St Cross and Kellogg (link https://www.ox.ac.uk/about/organisation?wssl=1). The graduate admissions section says "The University has 38 colleges" (link https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/colleges/introducing-colleges?wssl=1). The only passages which distinguish societies and colleges that I can find in the main site are formal documents which contain phrases like "colleges, societies, and Permanent Private Halls".

Constituent college seems to be a Wikipedia term: the Collegiate university article says "A collegiate university is a university in which functions are divided between a central administration and a number of constituent colleges." At Oxford functions are similarly divided between the university and its Societies St Cross and Kellogg. I can only find Constituent college in 2 job advertisements on the Oxford University main website and nowhere on the Cambridge main website so it does not seem to be an official Oxford or Cambridge University term.

I think that the term constituent college is confusing but it is used on all the Oxford and Cambridge college wikipedia articles so presumably there is a consensus for using it. It would be a major project to post on 69 college talk pages and collate responses.81.86.211.166 (talk) 10:38, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"I suggest amending the opening sentence to say that St Cross is a constituent college of the University of Oxford, but adding another sentence at the end of the first paragraph to say that St Cross does not have a royal charter and is therefore formally a society rather than a college of the university. The Kellogg article could be amended similarly". I agree - but I liked to know what is the opinon of @IACOBVS: (and of the other contributors of the page, of course).--MiguelMadeira (talk) 11:47, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello @MiguelMadeira: - thanks for asking me. If the goal is accuracy, then both St Cross and Kellogg should be deemed graduate colleges that are not yet independent within the collegiate University of Oxford. The word 'constituent' is admittedly tricky. A Permanent Private Hall (PPH) is still a constituent body of the University even though not a college. To add to this confusion, Regent's Park College is a PPH while St Edmunds Hall is a college. Many non-Oxford entities assume Regent's Park is a constituent college because it has the word 'college' in its name. I suggest a Compromise: A solution may be to call them constituent graduate institutions of the University of Oxford. IACOBVS (talk) 12:39, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @IACOBVS: and @MiguelMadeira:.

IACOBUS, thanks for rejoining the conversation. To help reach a consensus, could you respond to the arguments in my post dated 21 August 2018? It would be useful to know what you agree with and what you disagree with and why.81.86.211.166 (talk) 08:57, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello @81.86.211.166:. I am replying to your points of 21 August as requested. First off, the University of Oxford does not control the word 'college'. To be a constituent college, as used at Oxford, a college must be independent, have a royal charter, be accepted to the Conference of Colleges in the University of Oxford (http://www.confcoll.ox.ac.uk/) and be accepted by the University itself. St Cross and Kellogg are colleges of the University, but they are not constituent colleges in the accepted sense. So, while the other entries for the 36 colleges (minus St Cross and Kellogg) can proprely be described as constituent colleges, the entries for St Cross and Kellogg should just say 'college'. You are quite right that the term constituent college is not an official term used by Oxford or Cambridge. They use the terms college, permanent private hall, society, and recognised independent centre. St Cross and Kellogg are unusual in that they are treated as societies by the University, but as departments of the University for accounting purposes. This is why I would simply drop the term constituent college for these two entries only and simply call them colleges.--IACOBVS (talk) 02:45, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @IACOBVS:, I think the key phrase is "constituent college". Can you provide some evidence for the accepted sense of "constituent college" of Oxford University you refer to in your post of 27th August? I understand that you are saying it is not just a "college" of Oxford University which is "constituent". I looked online and did not find anything conclusive.81.86.211.166 (talk) 09:39, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @81.86.211.166:.The University of Oxford does not use "constituent college" in its statutes or regulations, but simply recognises them as "Colleges of the University" under Statute V: Colleges, Societies, and Permanent Private Halls (https://www.admin.ox.ac.uk/statutes/782-121.shtml). Colleges of the University are designated as such by University statute and subject to approval of the Queen in Council (the Privy Council). Statute V.5 designates St Cross College and Kellogg College as Societies of the University, The word "constituent" is not official but adjectival - it describes an academic body that is deemed to be an official member of the collegiate University. Thus St Cross and Kellogg are constituent societies of the University, just as St Benet's Hall and Regent's Park College as PPHs are constituent halls of the University. It really depends on how specific you want the entries to be. Hope this helps. IACOBVS (talk) 03:07, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @IACOBVS:, I think we agree on the facts but not on how to interpret and present them. I would summarise the issue in three questions.

1. Is St Cross a constituent of Oxford University? I think we agree it is and I have found an official source, The Education (Listed Bodies) (England) Order 2013, (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/2993/made) which lists the 44 bodies which are "a constituent college, school, hall or other institution" of the university.

2. Is St Cross a college of Oxford University? This is debatable. The organisation section of the university's main website says "There are 38 Oxford colleges", which includes St Cross and Kellogg (link https://www.ox.ac.uk/about/organisation?wssl=1). The graduate admissions section says "The University has 38 colleges" (link https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/colleges/introducing-colleges?wssl=1). However the statutes of the university recognize St Cross as a Society.

I think it is reasonable to describe St Cross as a college as the university does so, but explain the formal status later.

3. Is St Cross a constituent college of Oxford University if it is a constituent and a college of Oxford University? I would say yes as I have not found evidence that constituent college has a different accepted meaning.

Is my summary reasonable, and if so how would you answer the questions?81.86.211.166 (talk) 09:14, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @81.86.211.166:, I think we agree that St Cross and Kellogg are constituent bodies of the University of Oxford. They are graduate colleges, but not "Colleges of the University" in the statutory sense. In the statutes, they are societies of the University. So, I will reverse my previous entry and say St Cross and Kellogg can be called constituent colleges as long as a clarification is added in the entries that legally they are societies of the University and not fully autonomous colleges with a royal charter. Both colleges wish to achieve this status in the future subject to securing the required funding. IACOBVS (talk) 12:13, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @IACOBVS:, Thanks for the discussion, I have learned something about constituent colleges in talking with you. I have rewritten the second sentence of Kellogg and St Cross to say that each "does not have a royal charter and is therefore formally a society rather than a college of the university." Each also has a more detailed administration section. Do you think I should change the wording at all before I check that MiguelMadeira is also happy to go back to "constituent college"?81.86.211.166 (talk) 18:14, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @81.86.211.166:, I vote yes to your solution. Now I wager Regent's Park College will probably want to be called a constituent college even though it is legally a Permanent Private Hall of the University! But that is for someone else to decide! :) IACOBVS (talk) 22:20, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]