Talk:St. Bernard (dog breed)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Bad news: the dogs are out of job

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/29/international/europe/29bernard.html

October 29, 2004hello

This Time, It's the Faithful Hero That Needs the Rescue

By Ian Fisher

Great St. Bernard Pass, Switzerland, Oct. 27 - The only dog right now at the 950-year-old hospice of St. Bernard is a very nice golden retriever named Justy.

[Rev. Frédéric Gaillard:] "... This is noA guy admitted], in some ways, technology has outstripped the need for the dogs. ... [T]hey have not actively worked in rescues for at least 50 years.

I think the dogs are out of job. And this page may need an update. -- Toytoy 16:45, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)

For one thing this date is not very up to date. You people need to look at your calendars and get with the program. This is 2006!

No offense to Golden Retrievers but they are kind of sissy dogs.(Just my opinion) You need a nice strong boy to do the job. St.Bernards are your dogs.

ok you have a point here but who really cares! Yes helicopters are great and all but these dogs have been doing this job longer and they definately are good at it. I have to go right now but i will try and write some more later. If any people that read this and agree with me can you write some on here and let me know. I appreciate it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.174.244.2 (talk • contribs) .

To clarify, this is the talk/discussion page about the article, not the article itself. What the previous user posted here was a correctly dated & referenced piece of information about what's going on out there now and suggested that the article should be updated to reflect a more current status. If you can also cite a source that's more recent that says that this information is not correct, please do so. Elf | Talk 22:28, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Osteosarcoma Reference

I put in the osteosarcome reference (to be seen in the source test), but strangely, it is not displayed in the article. Can somebody with better HTML knowledge than myself please correct this? 130.92.9.58 13:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. --84.72.116.77 11:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Famous St. Bernard

What about (Bernie Winters's dog) Schnorbitz? :) 81.31.97.129 19:25, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

heaviest dog?

Recently added: "however, it holds the world record for world's heaviest dog (310lbs". I can't find an item for this on the web; all I find are Mastiffs that top out around 282 lbs. Can someone corroborate? Elf | Talk 21:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I cannot confirm that this weight is or is not a record for this breed, however the world record for the heavist dog ever recorded to date is held by Zorba an English Mastiff or Mastiff at 343lbs per the 1989 Guniess Book of World Records Charon9

OK, I've removed it from the article. Elf | Talk 15:37, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

currently the haviest dog is a mastiff weighting at 382 lbsUpol007 (talk) 13:18, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Naming

""St. Bernard" was in widespread use until the middle of the 19th century. The dogs were called "Saint Dogs","Noble Steeds", "Alpenmastiff", or "Barry Dogs" before, and in parts of North America, they're still called "Saints"."

So what is the article saying they're called now since it says ""St. Bernard" was in widespread use until the middle of the 19th century,". I've never heard a St. Bernard refered to as anything but a St. Bernard. 68.166.68.126 (talk) 23:02, hello! July 2008 (UTC)

DMOZ/Open Directory Project

Place club links, kennel links, rescue information links, and other breed-specific informative links on DMOZ at www.dmoz.org/Recreation/Pets/Dogs/Breeds/Working_Group/Saint_Bernard/, not in the Wikipedia article "External links" section. Instructions for submitting links are on the DMOZ page.

Other famous St. Bernards should include the dog mascot of the United States Merchant Marine Academy at Kings Point, NY. His name is Polaris. When a midshipmen, we'd take turns each evening walking Polaris across campus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.113.1.166 (talk) 08:01, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Temperament section

There is a proposal that Temperament sections be eliminated as they usually contain very similar vague and unreferenced platitudes. Please comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs#Temperament sections.--Hafwyn (talk) 15:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I marked it as unreferenced. Also, the inclusion of the puppy picture with this section seems to be a bit disingenuous. I can't explain it in wikipedia speak, but I feel that it's (possible) cuteness might be attempting to back up some of these "platitudes" in sort of a promotion for the breed. I think the picture is good to have, just not here. What do you think? Teimu.tm (talk) 13:40, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

"...not having learned to distinguish between a child and other, smaller animals."

The article states:

"A St. Bernard not properly introduced to and socialized with children from a young age poses a threat, not having learned to distinguish between a child and other, smaller animals."

Admittedly, English is not my native tounge, but meseemeth that the grouping of children together with "other, smaller animals" does not ring quite right.

195.216.44.200 (talk) 00:19, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

The St Bernard does not have the weight pull record.

I have seen countless videos on youtube of pitbulls pulling twice the amount specified in this article and just yesterday i saw a Harlequin Great Dane pull almost 10,000 lbs, so is there any objections to me deleting this section?--CarbriniTek (talk) 09:21, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Article protected

Due to a content dispute on this article, I have protected this article for three months, which is the normal progression from the prior period a few months back when the article was protected one month.

If you want to make changes to the article during this period, first gain consensus, then propose the specific change you want with using the tag {{editprotected}}, and an admin will come along and make the change, provided that either the change has consensus, or the change is non-controversial. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:10, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Minimac, 5 February 2011

{{edit protected}}

I have discovered that some of the content was copied and pasted from http://dogshaadi.com/breeds/working-dogs/saint-bernard/ and would like to see it removed. In particular I am looking at the Temperament section.

Minimac (talk) 09:44, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Good catch; it looks like the entire Temperament section was (in some places) outright copied and pasted and (in others) paraphrased way too closely. It looks like we'll need to remove the entire temperament section and work on it here on the talkpage. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:42, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

 Done Section removed  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 23:07, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks very much for finding this issue and making sure that it received attention. :) It was listed for evaluation at the copyright problems board so that we could fully evaluate it to be sure the provenance of the material. In this case, fortunately, it seems that they have copied from us. More detail is available in the "hidden" section of the "backwardscopy" template now at the top of the page. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 15:43, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for that. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:30, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Barry

The stuffed "Barry" who was reputed to have made 40 rescues is a popular exhibit at Naturhistorisches Museum der Burgermendiz Bern. Someone should add that. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:20, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I would presume that this is noncontroversial. {{editprotected}} 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:47, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Basically, this is already in the article. I do think that the museum name should be wikified as Naturhistorisches Museum der Burgermendiz Bern.

The following citation shouild be used instead of the one that is in there. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:43, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I've tweaked the reference as you requested. As to the link to the museum, shouldn't this follow the name of the article? (You could make the case for moving the article to a different title if you feel strongly.) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:36, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

It's now in the citation. We always have the problem with institutions in other countries with other languages than English. No worries as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for helping out. Hope this controversy gets resolved, as a full lock down is kind of a pain in the keyboard. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 23:26, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

References

Bamse

The Saint Bernard is an amazing breed that has a few hip and heart problems, but other than that they are good. The notation that deads with "Bamse, a Norwegian dog honoured for exploits during World War II memorial statue in Montrose, Scotland where he died in 1944" appears to be a run-on sentence. (two sentences running into one another. It also fails to convey who Banse is, and I think that could be beefed up at bit (I know it's in the other article, but this was one heckuva dog and he deserved more than 20 words in this article). That's just my suggestion. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 23:50, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Drooling and Slobbering

The sentence that deals with this lacks essential wiki links and any citations. I propose the following: Due to having loose flews, drooling is common in St. Bernards, particularly males. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:22, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

This has been here for a week, and I've seen no one dissent. I would suggest that this is "noncontroversial, and should be included. {{editprotected}} 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:47, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

 Not done Your edit was not saved because it contains a new external link to a site registered on Wikipedia's blacklist. The following link has triggered a protection filter: www.associatedcontent.com

• If you feel the link is needed, you can request that just the specific page be allowed, without unblocking the whole website, by asking MediaWiki_talk:Spam-whitelist page.  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 02:09, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

References

Typo

{{editprotected}}

In the sub-section "Related breeds", there is a spelling mistake:

"St. Bernards share many characterisitcs of many Mountain dog breeds."

Dr Gangrene (talk) 03:12, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Done Favonian (talk) 14:14, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Heaviest dog?!?

The St.Bernard isn't the heaviest dog breed. Tallest would be the Irish Wolfhound, heaviest would be the English Mastiff. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mastifflvr (talk • contribs) 06:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

As I can see from your nick you are a mastiff lover. However, it does not change reality. The St Bernard dogs are the heaviest dog breed as well known by public. Even Benedictine was heavier than Zorba that you may reference. Please note, even you may consider Zorba (for 1989 only) was heaviest it does not make his breed is heaviest.

On the other hand, making a dog very heavy is not a good thing; it is obesity and a sickness. We should not be happy because our dog is a FAT dog.

Please note that heaviest breed is a completely a different subject than heaviest dog.

The English Mastiff is the heaviest living dog with Hercules, It is also the heaviest ever with Zorba and the English Mastiff is also the heaviest breed from breed standerds.--CarbriniTek (talk) 16:24, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

---

Mastifflvr is correct. The English Mastiff, on average, is the largest/heaviest breed. I have been around both; and I have--but not with me--two books citing the the normal sizes of both breeds. However, a quick check with the American Kennel Club's website lists a standard male St. Bernard's minimum shoulder height as 27.5 inches and an English Mastiff's as 30 inches minimum. For bitches, 25.5 and 27.5, respectively. Both dogs have the same build. So, common sense alone would tell someone that a typical Mastiff is going to weigh in heavier as well.

That statement needs to be omitted from the article. If there are other credible published sources saying otherwise, they should, at the very least, be referenced. Melnium 13:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

---

AKC Mastiff link for shoulder height: http://www.akc.org/breeds/mastiff/index.cfm AKC Saint Bernard link for shoulder height: http://www.akc.org/breeds/saint_bernard/index.cfm

Also, I looked again. I cannot find any expert organization on the internet stating what is the largest/heaviest breed (i.e. American Kennel Club). However, the Westminster Kennel Club did state that the Saint Bernard was, "Neither the tallest nor heaviest of breeds..." So, unless it can be documented that an expert organization, such as the AKC, etc., does in fact define the Saint Bernard as the largest/heaviest breed, then the comment should be stricken from the article in light of this expert documentation.

Link to Westminster Kennel Club Saint Bernard article: http://westminsterkennelclub.org/breedinformation/working/stbern.html Melnium 14:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

No, Mastifflvr is not correct. There are official club sites shows St Bernard is larger size. There is no official record shows English Mastiffs are higher or larger. Even Guinness does not have a record for heaviest dog anymore and no record shows Zorba was heavier than 314 pounds.

http://www.bernhardiner.de/index.php?section=link5_2&menu=menu5&change=eng http://www.bernhardiner-club.ch/engl/Pages/Standard/standard.htm

These sites show official standard for St Bernard height is over 35 inches and I remember another one shows over 95 cm, which is higher. I will find it and provide here later. There is no official record shows Mastiff has over 35 inches, instead they show 30 – 32 inches.

This article has a couple of absurd, unverified claims in it, specifically about
weight (+300lbs? hahahahaahah) but also your broken English attempts at defending
the St Bernard as the "largest dog breed" are pretty hilarious also. You say the breed
is "over 35 inches" when YOUR OWN LINK says 27.55 inches for the breed standard.
Obviously you are a partisan, but don't expect people not to call you out on 
your flat exaggerations and outright falsehoods.

This is probably formatted wrong but it needed to be said. The worst thing about wikipedia is page defacement by a poster with an agenda!

The Mastiff :"Zorba" was indeed weighed at over 300 lbs, as was the Saint "Benedictine", but there seems to be no primary source for the claim of 367 lbs. Indeed, there seems to be no secondary sources- all the reference are tertiary sources that are recycling themselves. I've looked. Collieuk (talk) 23:09, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

One of the sources being used- the one I just removed- got its information from an earlier version of the Wikipedia article, which negates its value since Wikipedia can't be used as a source for itself. The other one appears to be a personal website, so can be left in, but supporting the Benedictine claim solely based on that would unquestionably violate WP:UNDUE, especially since the Zorba refs are far more comprehensive. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I have checked all of the citations in the "Heaviest dog?!?" section, and none of them support the statements in the article. I have changed the Zorba one to give the most up to date Guinness figures, but I would ask someone to provide valid citations and/or delete the existing ones. In particular the reference to Benedictine Daily Double (Switzerland 1970) has no support on the Internet. I can only find this name in this Wikipedia article and on a site which has obtained it's information from this article. "Benedictine Daily Double" does not fit the format which a Swiss dog name would be expected to have. Please note that every time you edit, you see the statement "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable".Collieuk (talk) 16:10, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll back off for the time being on this, as I've been told a source will be provided. However, it still needs to be sourced, and if it remains unsourced for too long (I don't work on definitive time schedules; let's call it roughly a few weeks) I'll reinsert the statement that the claim isn't verified. Of course, if a source is found later, we can reinsert it at any time. Sound reasonable? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 13:55, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Note that the reference now provided to "Benedictine Daily Double" is to a site called Brainyquotes.com which accepts entries submitted by the public. The reference did not did not appear on a web search on the 28th October, 2010. My belief is that it was created subsequent to that date so that it could appear as a reference in Wikipedia. I believe this to be tantamount to vandalism, and I would request that this matter be taken up by someone.Collieuk (talk) 15:18, 27 November 2010 (UTC) Correction: the site is www.brainyhistoy. com, but submissions are taken at www.brainyquotes.com Collieuk (talk) 15:25, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Good catch; I think you're onto something. Is there any way to definitively check when it was posted to that website? And even if it was there before, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't clear WP:RS; the people over at WP:RSN might be able to give a better answer. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:42, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

After consulting the people over at WP:RSN (permalink here), the two sources used to support the Benedictine claim were not sufficiently reliable for Wikipedia standards. As such, I have removed the claim altogether. Do not restore it without a more reliable source. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:05, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate Mastiffkennel's efforts at finding a new source; however, I feel that the sources being used are inadequate for such an exceptional claim, especially when measured against the sources used to support the claim for Zorba (which are also in the article as of now). I have also tried a couple of other venues (the content noticeboard and RSN), and have been unsuccessful in getting any sort of firm opinion on what to do, so I figured a 3O would be good now that this dispute involves only two of us. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:38, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

{{3O}} I'd like to put in a request at WP:3O to resolve this. Since it seems to be down to myself and User:Mastiffkennel (Collieuk hasn't edited either this page or the talkpage in a couple of months), I'll put in a request now. The text in the above section will provide context, as will the following links. Here is the discussion I started at the content noticeboard, which seems to have stalled, and here is a permalink to two discussions at RSN (which are extensions of the first discussion linked in the section above); the two sections are titled "St. Bernard redux" and "BrainyHistory.com". The basic dispute here is, given the available sources, whether or not to include anything about the "largest recorded dog" claim for a St. Bernard named Benedictine (or Benedictine Daily Double). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 08:25, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Brainyhistory doesn't appear to be a reliable source. Several editors, including an administrator, dispute the reliability of the sources used by Mastiff. I don't consider myself an authority on reliable sources, but WP:SOURCES is very explicit and it would be hard for Mastiff to argue against it. I suggest you leave a friendly notice at Mastiff's talk page, and if he restores the material again submit a report Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:36, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, I will point Mastiffkennel to the discussion here. Thank you very much for your time. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:40, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I double check with brainhistory admin and it seems info received from dog's owner or a member of their family. So it seems it is a reliable source for me. However, I don't understand Blade's huge effort on this section to not let Zorba to go second. I own two mastiffs also and they are my lovely babies however truth is truth.[mastifkennel]

Well, consensus is against you that this is a reliable source. I made the effort because this is an encyclopedia, and I felt and feel that including claims of this "Benedictine" is violating WP:UNDUE as the sources are nowhere near the same quality as those for Zorba. Even still, just getting the information from the dog's owner isn't reliable; anyone can make up anything they want and say it. It has to be verified; if what you describe is correct, then it's hearsay and can't be included without some sort of additional veracity. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:40, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

The following was put in as a reliable source on the size issue. "Meet the St. Bernard: The Heaviest Dog". Dogs Data. Retrieved October 9, 2012. I fixed the form on the source, but don't necessarily endorse the source or that the source supports the claim. 22:46, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Here is another source that mentions Guinness and the 1895 New York Times. "St. Bernard". World's Largest Dog. Retrieved October 9, 2012. Any takers? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:13, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

The latter one was clearly copied from Wikipedia, which we can't use. The first one was also likely copied, and even if it wasn't, it doesn't look like anything approaching a source strong enough for such an extraordinary claim. This is compounded by the claim that this St. Bernard was Swiss and somehow lived to 14 (as St. Bernards basically never live past 10, and even that only rarely, that's prima facie preposterous). As is stated somewhere above, the source regarding the mastiff Zorba is Guinness, which until 2000 (when they stopped accepting heaviest pet submissions) is about as solid a source as you'll get; barring that, if there really was a St. Bernard that big then surely some kennel association would make some mention of it. That there haven't been any would indicate it's probably unfounded. As a quick aside, my guess (which is in one of the content noticeboard threads above) is that we've run into a Slow Blind Driveway situation where someone put something on Wikipedia and a few online sources picked it up from us; my full rationale for that explanation is in the thread I alluded to. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:29, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Buck not a St Bernard

Buck in "Call of the wild" is described thus: "His (Buck's)father, Elmo, a huge St Bernard, had been the Judge's inseparable companion, and Buck bid fair to follow in the way of his father. He was not so large,—he weighed only one hundred and forty pounds,—for his mother, Shep, had been a Scotch shepherd dog. Nevertheless, one hundred and forty pounds, to which was added the dignity that comes of good living and universal respect, enabled him to carry himself in right royal fashion" obviously Buck wasn't a purebred St Bernard; is it correct to include him in the list as done here? (Excerpt taken from chapter 1 of the book) Yogesh Khandke (talk)

What you say is true. However, the article correctly states that he was "half" St. Bernard. In that at least the book was clear. More problematical is the use of the term "Scotch shepherd dog" which probably refers to Scotch Collie but might refer to English Shepherd. In any event, the dog is iconic, and I think he should continue to be included. It wouldn't hurt to put in your quotes is a source, although I think it should have a page number.7&6=thirteen (☎) 08:47, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't have a page number as I have taken it from an E-book, page numbers change when one rotates the device 90 degrees. Regarding whether we should have dogs which are half or less of the breed be best left to a consensus, perhaps we could have a separate section for Buck as a half St Bernard, certainly not in the list of "famous St Bernards". Yogesh Khandke (talk) 09:19, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

I put in a footnote that explains this. WP:BRD. i would say that it clears up any confusion. We can wait for consensus to split it off into a separate section. Do you have other half St. Bernards you think should be included? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 09:43, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Did a little copy editing, the IP is me too; I forgot to log in. The other part of the note, the one that explains the mother's breed should be supported by a reliable source. The excerpt too should have page number and the like as you rightly mentioned above. Finally I wouldn't want Buck in a list of St Bernards as he isn't one, hope my repeating that doesn't bother anyone. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 12:19, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Yogesh, we'll have to look for a source on the phrase "English Scottish Shepherd Dog." I suggest you put this in a subsection, if you want. I would only note that in the Clark Gable movie version he was a St. Bernard, as indicated in the footnote. But you are right that in the book he isn't. In fact, the words London used were probably a deliberate choice to avoid picking a breed. At the time of the Dreyfus movie, Leonbergers were a very rare breed, and were not AKC recognized. Being derived from a mix of St. Bernard, Newfoundland (dog) and Great Pyrenees, they looked a lot like the very large dog that London had in mind. And they didn't bring with them viewer preconceptions about a breed. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:30, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Unless we have a reliable source that gives us information on the bitch's breed or what Jack London had on his mind when he described the bitch, it would be OR to write what has been written about her in the footnote. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 01:53, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

"In Imagining the Primitive in Naturalist and Modernist Literature" Gina M. Rossetti, here Rossetti writes that London's story is a glorification of his Anglo race yet Buck's mixed breed status complicates the understanding of this philosophy. (Page 48) Yogesh Khandke (talk) 02:15, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Heads and Tails p. 82 seems to have some language that defines "Scottish Shepherd dog". Here's a more particularized discussion: "Name That Breed – A Collie By Any Other Name…". Old-Time Farm Shepherd. Retrieved 9 October 2012.. Here's another source which puts the definition and discussion into historical context about the time that London wrote what he did: "Defining a Breed: An Apologia of the OTFS". Retrieved 9 October 2012.. Of course, if you Wikipedia the phrase you'll also see some connections. As to racial glorification, etc., you seem to have a quote. What do you want to do with it? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 02:54, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Nothing it was just an example of a quote and its verifiable reliable source presented, no I don't want it here, perhaps when I have the time I could put it in the book's article or London's article. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:23, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

I checked the sources linked above, they do not refer to Buck in particular. It makes the statements made in the article entirely speculative, regarding the bitch to which Buck was born. I suggest that the statement ought to be removed. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

dogsdata.com is not a reliable source

To the person adding dogsdata.com urls, please desist. The guidance at Wikipedia:External links and Wikipedia:Citing sources very clearly would indicate that the links to that site are not authoritative, no matter how hard you may be trying to do so. Anything that you gather must surely have an earlier reliable source, and that is what should be cited. — billinghurst sDrewth 08:53, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

This has been going on for about two years now, which is why I put the commented out message in the article. Looks like it's been semiprotected for now, I'm sure it'll reappear the day the semiprotection expires... The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:49, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Avalanche: the demise of the traditional breed ??

I was told, by the gnarly old brother, when I stopped at St Bernards Pass in the 1980s that the avalanche tale was one told to visitors as the real reason was sadder and less dramatic.

The classic St. Bernard looked very different from the St. Bernard of today, because an avalanche killed off many of the dogs used for breeding

Most of the breed simply succumbed to distemper brought up from the valley by the increased numbers of people and animals using the pass in the 19th century. Many travellers would simply ignore the monks' quarantine attempts and visit the famous dogs in their kennels thus exsacerbating the spread of distemper. By the 1900s the traditional breed was extinct and the breed today is an invented one. A cross created from the Newfoundland and the Pyrenean sheepdog. Historically speaking disease is a much more efficient killer than most natural disasters. Making the avalanche tale just a sad addendum in the demise of the ancient breed.

Not quite! The mastiff was bred into the St. Bernard as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.27.242.138 (talk) 10:35, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Benedictine -- real or not?

Currently, there is a comment in the "record size" of this article stating that "No evidence of a 357 or 367 pound St. Bernard named Benedictine or Benedictine Daily Double exists..." However I found an article in Readers' Digest which would appear to contradict this claim: [1] I don't edit dog related articles very often, so I apologize if I am wrong, but I think that Readers' Digest is a reliable source, thus contradicting the claim that there is no evidence that this dog existed. Jinkinson talk to me 21:24, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

At a glance, I'd say it's likely that that's either a circular reference (if the RD writer got his facts from Wikipedia) or poor research (if the RD writer got his facts from googling and not noticing he was using user-submitted content elsewhere). There's no cited source on the RD article, it looks like the sort of article pieced together from research elsewhere, and years of edit warring on our article have failed to surface any reliable sourcing for the Benedictine tidbit. However, I believe you're right that RD is generally considered reliable-enough; we may be in a situation where verifiability ends up trumping truth. I'd like to hear opinions from other editors about RD's reliability before anything gets put back into the article, though. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:36, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Agree. I would consider them unreliable for this specific piece of info. There are actually two verifiable Benedictines. Benedictine V Schwarzwald Hof(born 1970) is stated on the breeder's website as 310 lbs.(wiki wrongly states 315 lbs) The 1981 Guinness entry list the weight as 305 lbs. It's possible he had gotten heavier, or the breeder mixed it up with his son Benedictine Jr.. Junior was born in 1982 and noted in the 1992 Guinness as weighing 310 lbs.[2][3](He was just noted as the heaviest St. Bernard. Zorba was already 343 lbs.) The 2001 version still list Zorba as the heaviest dog, at 343 lbs. Junior was probably dead by this time, so if there is a Benedictine that weighs 357 or 367, it isn't Junior but a third dog named Benedictine. What are the chances of three exceptionally large St. Bernards all being named Benedictine? If this third dog is real, you would expect a world record like that to to get more coverage from reliable sources than what exists. --Dodo bird (talk) 05:59, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Is this question related to this addition? That information seems indeed to have no independent sources, all sources are circular. The IP here has been promising to add that reliable source 'later', but does not seem to be able to provide that. Regarding the RD - I am afraid that they picked this up indeed. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 03:56, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 January 2014

The second source is unavailable, and thus the wok cannot be cited. Gameon123321 (talk) 19:33, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

are you suggesting that the document does not exist, or only that we do not have a working link anymore. The latter is not necessarily a reason to invalidate a source. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 20:28, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Done. I have updated the reference with a new URL. --Anon126 (talk - contribs) 00:28, 16 January 2014 (UTC)