Talk:Square One: Michael Jackson

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Jordan Chandler is the accuser not Evan Chandler. The court case is well documented to prove it was Jordan, it's not debatable.

Proof it was he:

Back in 1993, when the first charges of sexual abuse were leveled at Michael Jackson by a 13-year-old boy named Jordan “Jordie” Chandler

In mid-August 1993, during an appointment set up by Chandler with psychiatrist Dr. Mathis Abrams, Jordan described being molested by Jackson, including incidents of kissing, masturbation and oral sex, which Abrams reported to the authorities.

Jackson was first accused of child abuse in 1993 by Jordan Chandler. That accusation led to an extensive law enforcement investigation but no indictment. Jackson reportedly settled a civil lawsuit in 1994 with an undisclosed payment to Chandler's family.

On August 17, Chandler took his son to a psychiatrist, where Jordan revealed the details of Jackson’s abuse, including fondling and oral sex. Per California law, the allegations were then reported to the police, who launched an investigation into Jackson.

"In January 1994, Jackson settled the case for $23 million, with $5 million going to the family’s lawyers. Prosecutors dropped the criminal case after the boy declined to cooperate." Bananasasas (talk) 15:02, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes Jordan did accuse him but only after his father told him to do so. None of these articles say anything about the full timeline of events how Jordan's allegations emerged. Jordan did not accuse Jackson of anything on July 9 when Pellicano was interviewing him in Jackson's condo. The Chandlers did not dispute that. But on July 8 Evan Chandler already told Dave Schwarz that he will "humiliate Jackson beyond belief" "he harmed his son" Jackson "will be destroyed" he "has the evidence". All that is in the transcript which is available in court, thanks to Dave Schwarz suing Evan Chandler, case number SC031774 castorbailey (talk) 22:30, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Evan Chandler was the accuser. He initiated the allegations to begin with. Jordan went along with it as he was a young impressionable kid. Nonetheless, you can’t change how the information was presented in a film that does not belong to you. The film meets Wiki’s notability guidelines and is fair and balanced. The content is not twisted like some anti-Jackson websites and social media users who hide behind fake pictures and have dedicated their lives to alternative facts. The current version has been stable for a long time. It will stay as is. TruthGuardians (talk) 16:11, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Please quote a source that states Evan Chandler is the accuser and not his 13 year old son, Jordan Chandler. Why not include Jordan? Jordan told his psychiatrist, the police, and the court (in his civil case) that Michael Jackson molested him. The film discusses Jordan Chandler's court case with Jackson whereby he is the accuser. [htotps://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/1994/01/orth199401 "In August, a 13-year-old boy had accused Jackson of sexual molestation] "On August 17, over a three-hour session, Jordan told Abrams he had been abused by Jackson that went on for several months, which included kissing, masturbation and oral sex. Jordan repeated these allegations to police and gave a description of what he alleged was Jackson's penis. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-12-18-me-3080-story.html "On August 18, the Los Angeles Police Department's Sexually Exploited Child Unit began a criminal investigation into Jackson." 2601:582:4682:5270:A876:A299:C537:A951 (talk) 07:06, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Both Evan and Jordan accused him, it's not either or. But Evan did it first, and that is not debatable, a combination of sources prove that. 1. the transcript of the July 8 recorded phone conversion. LA Superior Court , case number SC031774. The TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO CASSETTE MARKED EXHIBIT NO. 10 D. SCHWARTZ AND E. CHANDLER FILE NO. TPA81793.MK On that tape Evan said "but I truly believe my son is being harmed greatly and that his life -- he could be fucked up for the rest of his life" and "I have the evidence". He also said "this man would be humiliated beyond belief he's not gonna believe what will happen to him beyond his worst nightmares" "he won't sell one more record". He was accusing Jackson of harming his son in a way that if made public would "humiliate him behind belief" and would end his career. Nothing but molestation allegations could have had that effect. 2. The other source is Ray Chandler's and Evan Chandler's book All that Glitter. June Chandler's sworn declaration states Evan and Ray wrote that book together, publisher Judith Regan's statement show the Chandlers were ready to publish that book in 1994 already. In that book Evan is quoted saying on July 16 "I know about the kissing and the jerking off, so you are not telling me anything I don't already know" All that Glitter, page 91. Diane Dimond quotes Evan too "I know about the kissing the jerking off and the blow jobs" page 60 Be Careful Who you Love so does Gutierrez "I know about the kisses, the masturbation and oral sex" Michael Jackson was my lover, page 102" . all that without Jordan accusing Jackson of anything. 3. Pellicano's statement that he questioned Jordan and Jordan denied any abuse. That Pellicano talked to Jordan on July 9 is confirmed by the Chandler book. 4. Jordan's own statement to Dr. Gardner, published by Court TV, proves that he did not accuse Jackson on his own, he admitted that his father asked him if he was molested so the idea that he was did not originate with Jordan but his dad. BTW Jordan lied to Gardner, Evan in fact repeatedly asked him not just once, in fact he "went on the attack" not just simply asked him. This from a man who was caught on tape talking about how he would "win big" by "humiliating" Jackson. castorbailey (talk) 22:21, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

You are here arguing semantics as you call Evan Chandler an accuser for his belief which doesn't make him an alleged victim which is what we understand to be an accuser. The true accuser, Jordan Chandler, has a police report, notes of abuse in their psychiatrist report, and has sworn under oath in a statement to or by the court. You have not proven your claim and it stands that the official accuser is Jordan Chandler. Anyone that backed up Jordan Chandler is not an official accuser of Michael Jackson, just someone who believes Jordan Chandler was sexually abused as he accused Jackson. Bananasasas (talk) 23:02, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Actually you are arguing semantics by calling Jordan "official accuser". Anyone who is accusing someone of a crime is an accuser, not just alleged victims and one can be an accuser without filing a lawsuit or talking to the police, in fact according Jordan himself he was already an accuser before doing any of those, and nobody denied that Jordan accused Jackson anyway. The issue is that his father accused him first and the idea that Jackson molested Jordan did not come from Jordan himself but his father Evan as proven by his own book and the July 8 transcript and Jordan's own admission to Dr. Gardner. That Jordan after his father coached him filed a lawsuit and a declaration do not negate the fact that Evan Chandler did accuse Jackson of performing sex acts on the boy without the boy claiming any such thing. Do you think we should ignore sources like the Schwarz transcript, Chandler book, Gardner transcript and Pellicano's statement? It's not just that Evan supported Jordan's accusations that would be the case if Jordan had accused Jackson on his own and Evan had believed him then. But Evan actually threatened the boy unless he confirmed to him that Jackson did do the sex acts claimed he already saw. Evan Chandler was clearly an accuser himself not just a supporter of Jordan. castorbailey (talk) 23:27, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

It's not a case of Jordan making allegations to his father and then his father using it to extort MJ. It's a case of Evan actively pressing his son to make allegations against Michael Jackson while he already hired a lawyer, asked Jackson for money, and support for his movie career before and when Jackson refused he started pressuring Jordan to make allegations against Jackson. Jordan initially said MJ didn't molest him. Only after Evan basically kidnapped him, isolated him from everyone, and pressured him to make allegations together with his shady lawyer is when Jordan started to mimic allegations that his father had been making. You can’t separate the parents from the impressionable children they forced to lie (as some from the guilt cult do in the Arvizo case as well). These allegations would not exist without these shady parents’ greed for money. I’ll give you 2 sources: Square One and All that Glitters. Thanks for exposing your IP address. Good day. TruthGuardians (talk) 08:11, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

First off, Your claim that there was extortion is false. Simple research proves this. Secondly, your comment "Thanks for exposing your IP address" needs explaining. Is there a reason I should hide it and what are you implying? You have given me a source that I watched, mainly this film. It does acknowledge my point that Jordan Chandler, who was the 13 year old boy that reported abuse to his psychiatrist, the police, and said same in his court case of 1993, is the official accuser. Naming anybody else is an opinion as it is not official and unsourced. It is also your opinion that there was extortion, no such case was ever filed with the courts and a complaint to the police was filed only after an article in the press addressed there was no official accusation. "Jackson’s advisers lodged a complaint with the Police Department, however, only after The Times reported that one had not been filed." “We’ve declined to file today criminal charges of attempted extortion,” said Michael J. Montagna, a deputy Los Angeles County district attorney who heads that office’s organized crime unit. “The evidence does not show that any crime has been committed.” Thirdly, you are accusing a father of kidnapping his son. This is not a word that doesn't require proof such as police report. Do you have proof of this kidnapping?

Finally, "All that Glitters" was written by Jordan's uncle and uses the direct quote on the back of the book (from what I see) from Jordan to his psychiatrist in 1993,"He (Michael) said that we had a little box, and this was a secret - and it's a box that only he and I could share. You put the secret in the box and nobody can know about what's in the box but him and me. He said that we weren't conditioned, but if this box were revealed to other people, like regular people of today's society, they're conditioned and so they would believe it was wrong. And so that's why I shouldn't reveal what's in the box." I haven't see more quotes from this book and if you plan to quote it, do so. The quote the book displays does reinforce that Jordan is the accuser. Good day? Bananasasas (talk) 19:41, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

It's a proven fact that Evan Chandler did demand 20 million from Jackson on Aug 4 1993. "In August, Chandler and his attorney met with Jackson’s attorney and demanded $20 million in exchange for not going public or to the authorities with the abuse allegations." It's also a proven fact (confirmed by Chandler's book) that Evan Chandler only took Jordan to Dr. Abrams to report allegations after Jackson refused to pay him even 1 million. When you demand money while threatening someone with public accusations it's extortion. There can be a number of reasons why someone is not charged for it though including biased police and prosecutors castorbailey (talk) 23:07, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Extortion is not “false” extortion was just not proven or disproven in a court of law. It is known knowledge that the only reason why extortion was dropped because Jackson attorneys sought to file such charges too late and a settlement was still being considered, per the exact same LATimes article you shared (also see 1993 child sexual abuse accusations against Michael Jackson ). The article verbatim says, “Montagna cited the Jackson camp’s slowness to act on the extortion claim and its willingness to negotiate with the boy’s father for several weeks as two reasons why prosecutors did not bring an extortion case. Montagna also said the discussions between Jackson’s representatives and Barry K. Rothman, the attorney for the boy’s father at that time, appeared to be attempts to settle a possible civil case, not efforts to extort money.“ Of course anyone working to prove a case in ones favor would claim no proof to extort. To imply that extortion was “false” is to imply that it was proven as such or that you have some insider knowledge that’s not known to anyone else. The kidnapping claim above is admitted hyperbole, but at least I’m not attempting falsely accusing a 14-time acquitted, FBI investigated, dead man unable to defend himself. While Evan may not be the actual legal accuser, there are plenty of sources that suggest that the allegations are his and not Jordan. Hence the reason why Square One exists.TruthGuardians (talk) 22:01, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi, Bananasasas. Per WP:STICKTOTHESOURCES, you are right to stick to what the sources state. On Wikipedia, that's what we go by for material such as this rather than personal opinions (such as whether a claim is false or a child was pressured to make a false statement). A number of the Jackson articles are contentious articles and this area is under discretionary sanctions; see Wikipedia:General sanctions/Michael Jackson. You have to be careful editing these articles. Make sure that you don't engage in WP:Edit warring, for example. With regard to disputes, you can look to WP:Dispute resolution. QEDK and NinjaRobotPirate have enforced the discretionary sanctions thus far. No one should be focusing on your IP in the above way, by the way. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 20:14, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

That Evan Chandler not Jordan Chandler accused Jackson first is not merely an opinion, it's proven fact. Jordan didn't accuse Jackson of anything before his father put him in his dental chair, gave him some IV drug and "went on the attack". That is both according to the Chandler's own book and Jordan Chandler's own statement to Dr. Gardner. Why should we ignore those sources?castorbailey (talk) 22:24, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Sighs again at Jimcastor (castorbailey) predictably appearing out of the blue at a Jackson article he'd never edited before until this dispute and when he hadn't edited Wikipedia since May 6, 2020. Bananasasas, this type of thing is why the Jackson articles are under discretionary sanctions. And Jimcastor should know by now that I am not interested in his arguments about Jackson. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 15:44, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Flyer22 Frozen My sourced edits were wiped out without an explanation such as why the "Reception" section which breaks the rules (Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Film#Audience guidelines)and these 2 other pages to reference,1993_child_sexual_abuse_accusations_against_Michael_Jackson Trial_of_Michael_Jackson. I have shown that Jordan was the accuser not his father by linking a site that shows the actual court documents. "J. Chandler v Michael Jackson Defendant, Superior Court of the State of California for the County of Los Angeles, Case No. SC 026226."

@TruthGuardians: do not post defamatory smears like that again, please. From what I can tell, Evan Chandler is no longer alive. That means WP:BLP doesn't apply, but the general sanctions certainly do. I have no idea who made what accusations or what the documentary says about them. However, if the documentary includes opinion and commentary, this can be included and attributed to the documentary. For example: "The documentary says that X made the claim of Y because of Z." Forum-style rants on talk pages are disallowed, as is edit warring (repeatedly undoing others' edits). NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 21:08, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

May I ask what exactly were "defamatory smears" and why Evan Chandler is protected against them but Michael Jackson is not? castorbailey (talk) 22:39, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

can we also get reactivate protections for all of Michael Jackson articles? That would be great. These accounts popping up with their first edit ever on Jackson topic is why they were enacted in the past. That’s exactly what we have here. TruthGuardians (talk) 22:11, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, NinjaRobotPirate. WP:BLP also applies to family members who are still alive. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 15:48, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

TruthGuardians My comment never called it false exortion and I am correct in putting forth that there was no extortion which is a legal definition not an opinion. There was only an accusation of extortion. In the same sense, Michael Jackson was charged with extortion in his 2005 case and found not guilty. We cannot say now that there was extortion by the legal definition. Opinions are another thing. "Prosecutors had charged the singer with four counts of lewd conduct with a child younger than 14; one count of attempted lewd conduct; four counts of administering alcohol to facilitate child molestation; and one count of conspiracy to commit child abduction, false imprisonment or extortion." Bananasasas (talk) 23:02, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

When there is proof an act was committed because the one who committed it admitted it in his own book should we still deny it happened just because he was not charged for it? Or do you have a different word for what Evan did in Aug 1993, demanding 20 million while threatening Jackson with public accusations if he doesn't pay? Per wikipedia: Extortion is obtaining benefit through coercion. Coerce: to achieve by force or threat Do you deny that in Aug 1993 Evan Chandler wanted to obtain 20 million from Jackson by threatening him? castorbailey (talk) 23:54, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

[WP:CONTENTDISPUTE|content dispute resolution process.]] There are edits here being reverted here such as the name of the sworn accuser Jordan Chandler which is correct and well sourced. Any other entry is not being disputed by actual sources just by opinion. "In December 1993, the boy outlined his accusations in a sworn declaration, recounting his year-long friendship with the King of Pop." "During our relationship Michael Jackson had sexual contact with me on many occasions," the statement alleges."

There are edits being made that are attempted to rewrite someone else’s work. Accusers are who the documentary says they are. Not what one wants it to be based on a source that is not this documentary. TruthGuardians (talk) 00:25, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Under "Release", it says "Square One was first released at TCL Chinese Theater on September 28, 2019 with people close to Jackson and other celebrities in attendance". The premiere was not mentioned at all nor were any celebrities named in that Spanish article if that is the source of the quote. Why does the article exaggerate "celebrities" attended the first screening without proof or names?

However, this is yet another source that proves Jordan Chandler is the accuser. "Danny Wu ha decidido abordar (y poner su veracidad en duda) el juicio realizado en 1993 en el que Jordan Chandler acusó a Michael Jackson de pederastia. Sería este el primero que emprendería las acusaciones legales contra el icono del pop." "Danny Wu has decided to address (and question his veracity) the trial carried out in 1993 in the one Jordan Chandler accused Michael Jackson of child abuse. This would be the first to launch the legal charges against the pop icon."

I had edited out the "Reception" section as those sites are not allowed ***Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Film#Audience guidelines these sites can not be added to entries.*** The site were https://letterboxd.com/film/square-one/ and https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/square-one.

Another edit wiped out with no explanation are useful links: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/1993_child_sexual_abuse_accusations_against_Michael_Jackson https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Trial_of_Michael_Jackson Bananasasas (talk) 23:02, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Please show us a source that defines accuser exclusively as someone who is an alleged victim? Cambridge dictionary defines accuser as a person who claims that someone has done something morally wrong, illegal, or unkind Do you deny that on July 8 Evan Chandler did accuse Jackson of harming his son and claimed he had evidence against Jackson and on July 16 he accused Jackson of performing sex acts on the boy when the boy himself did not allege that? castorbailey (talk) 23:39, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

A child cannot bring such a lawsuit without an adult so his parents are part of the lawsuit. Jordan Chander was called the “alleged victim” or "accuser" and each of his parents was called the “witness". "An accusation is a statement by one person asserting that another person or entity has done something improper. The person who makes the accusation is an accuser, while the subject against whom it is made is the accused." Note is says person not persons. Their son told his story what was done to him as the accuser What do you think Evan and June Chandler are claiming was done to them? His parents can be witnesses but not accusers if not directly involved as nothing was claimed to be done to them. Bananasasas (talk) 06:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

It is false and misleading to claim that Jordan Chandler denied sexual abuse when he identified Michael Jackson's penis to the police and confirmed this in court as well He even described the sexual "abuse, including fondling and oral sex" to his psychiatrist. Jackson "had to pay $25 million to Jordie Chandler and his family in order to settle a civil suit in which Jordie, then 13, charged that Jackson had masturbated and fellated him during their relationship." "It turned out that Jordie Chandler had been able to draw very accurately certain distinctive markings on Jackson, which gave the boy’s lawyers the ammunition they needed to settle the civil suit at such a high price." Bananasasas (talk) 06:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Discussion and a consensus about an alleged accurate description of Jackson’s genitals have already been debated on wiki elsewhere. It was determined that there is no accurate description. Never was one or else an arrest would have been made, instead two grand juries never even indicted Jackson. Furthermore, Maureen Orth and that Vanity Fair article has been banned from being used as “source.” Consensus was reached on that long ago too. We are sticking to facts, not rumor and innuendo. TruthGuardians (talk) 17:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

TruthGuardians "Photos and drawings of Michael Jackson's private parts" did match. The images were collected during the 1993 investigation into the singer's allegedly inappropriate relationship with then-13-year-old Jordie Chandler. Prosecutors hoped Chandler's drawing of Jackson's distinctive blemishes, allegedly corroborated by search-warrant photos, would prove Jackson was not 'shy and modest" with sleepover guests."

Yes that's legitimate question who are those celebrities? Those two links are in the article itself. No need to repeat them again as useful links castorbailey (talk) 00:20, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Flyer22 Frozen There seems to an effort to change the well documented history of Jordan Chandler's court case on this page. He was the only Plantiff. If Evan Chandler was also an accuser as they are trying to push in edits, then he would have also been named as a Plaintiff. This page is under attack by this agenda. Still. Bananasasas (talk) 15:23, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

You can seek out WP:Third opinion or start a WP:RfC. If an RfC is started, the talk page would likely be semi-protected to combat new accounts flooding in; see WP:Meatpuppetry. If new accounts flood in, they will also likely be WP:Blocked. No need to WP:Ping me, by the way, since this page is on my watchlist. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:49, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Woody, QEDK, Banananasas is clearly edit warring, insisting Jordan was the sole accuser (in his own words, "it is not debatable"). Other editors and I did agree, per sources accepted here, that Evan Chandler and then his son, Jordan, did accuse Jackson, but he reverted our edits so the article reflects his perspective. Bananasasas, this Wikipedia article pertains to the movie Square One and what is described in the film.

Since there is a disagreement, I am now initiating a vote (see following section). Israell (talk) 08:21, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

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VOTE: "Evan Chandler did accuse Michael Jackson of molesting his son Jordan Chandler."

I am now initiating a vote since there is an escalating dispute as to who did formally accuse Michael Jackson of child sexual abuse: Evan Chandler, his son Jordan Chandler or the two of them. Bananasasas insists Jordan Chandler was the sole accuser, while several other editors (me included) agree that the two of them did formally accuse Jackson.

I ask that Banananasas' edit[1] that reads: "Square One is an independent investigative documentary that examines the original child sexual abuse allegations by Jordan Chandler, a 13 year old boy, against Michael Jackson." be changed back to "Square One is an independent investigative documentary that examines the original child sexual abuse allegations brought against Jackson first by Evan Chandler and then by his son Jordan Chandler."

@Popcornfud, SNUGGUMS, Drmies, *Treker, SNUGGUMS, JG66, Deboleena.ghy, Hammelsmith, TruthGuardians, Akhiljaxxn, Orientls, QEDK, and Jimcastor: I am now pinging you for consensus. Other editors are invited to vote as well.

My statement is the following: "Evan Chandler did accuse Michael Jackson of sexually abusing his son Jordan Chandler." Israell (talk) 09:17, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

• Strong Support Sources to support my vote: 1., 2., 3. 4., 5., 6..

Source 1: "Did Sega pull his name in the wake of the first wave of child molestation charges, in late 1993, whereupon Evan Chandler accused Jackson of sexually abusing his 13-year-old son?" Source 2: "When the late screenwriter and dentist Evan Chandler accused Jackson of sexually abusing his son Jordan “Jordy” Chandler in 1993, according to the Telegraph, both Robson and Safechuck took the stand to defend the musician." Source 3: "In mid-July, as a custody battle over Jordan began to ramp up, Evan Chandler claimed Jordan disclosed to him that Jackson had molested him on several occasions." Source 4: "In 1993, dentist Evan Chandler accused Jackson of molesting his 13-year-old son, Jordan." Source 5: "In 1993, child abuse allegations against him surfaced after 13-year-old Jordan Chandler and his father Evan Chandler accused him of misconduct." Source 6: "Evan Chandler filed a civil suit against Jackson on September 14, on behalf of his son." Israell (talk) 09:25, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

• Weak support I'm not as well versed in the situation as the other people here seem to be, but from reading the sources it does appear that Mr Even Chandler did accuse Jackson.★Trekker (talk) 09:22, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

• Strong Support Evan Chandler unquestionably accused Michael Jackson of abusing his son before his son accused him of anything. The transcript of the July 8 phone conversation between Evan Chandler and Dave Schwarz was submitted in the Superior Court of the State of California for DAVID SCHWARTZ VS EVAN CHANDLER filed 07/08/1994 case number SC031774 where Evan Chandler said "I truly believe my son is being harmed greatly and that his 2 life -- he could be fucked up for the rest of his3 life" and "I believe that Jordy's already irreparably harmed" and "He's an evil guy. He's worse than bad. I have the evidence to prove it." In his book All that Glitters, Evan tells his son "I know about the kissing and the jerking off so you're not telling me anything I don't already know" before his son accused him of anything. And Jordan Chandler's lawsuit where he accused Jackson in court was filed by and through his guardians Evan and June Chandler (Superior court of the state of California J. CHANDLER VS MICHAEL JACKSON filed 09/14/1993 case no SC026226) thus June Evan Jordan all accused Jackson of molestation in court castorbailey (talk) 12:17, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support Evan most certainly did accuse Michael of abusing Jordan. No doubt about it. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 13:04, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

• No support: Court files only list Jordan Chandler as the accuser. I don't understand how this is controversial. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 14:54, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
  • By definition anyone who accuses someone of wrongdoing is an accuser not just a person who is a plaintiff in a lawsuit. People who accuse someone in the media but can't file a lawsuit are still accusers. And even in Jordan's lawsuit it's stated that he filed through and by his guardians June and Evan which makes them accusers in court too. Check the lawsuit, case No. SC026226 in LA Superior court. By your logic Jordan Chandler only became an accuser when the filed his lawsuit. He accused Jackson long before that. And before him his father already accused him of molesting him. Read his book. castorbailey (talk) 15:30, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
    • BrothaTimothy, I do not understand this fetishism about the court filings. What is your interest in this? Also, did you recruit the IP and the brand-new Baagh account, who simply echo your argument and whose comments are practically identical? Drmies (talk) 20:46, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
• NO support, Jordan Chandler as the accuser tania loft 2A02:120B:2C69:F700:54F7:581E:B61F:BA35 (talk) 15:14, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
• NO Support: Court files only list Jordan Chandler as accuser. Baagh — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baagh (talk • contribs) 15:22, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

COMMENT I'd like to point out that the two above people have never edited Wikipedia before voting here, a little suspect.★Trekker (talk) 20:43, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

• Strong Support Per sources above. Also, this article is about what’s portrayed in the film. It is clear that Evan made the first accusations and that Jordan made them shortly thereafter and that civil lawyers pace them public. TruthGuardians (talk) 16:00, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
• I would Support this If it is added that Evan Chandler accused Michael Jackson because Chandler claimed that his son (Jordan) told him (Evan) that he (Jordan) was abused. That would at least provide some context. Jordan then spoke to a therapist about his alleged experiences with Jackson, and the therapist reported these claims to the police. You could use this source. Best to all, Hammelsmith (talk) 18:37, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: QEDK and NinjaRobotPirate, one of you might want to consider temporarily semi-protecting this talk page while this unofficial RfC is going on. Already there is an IP and the Baagh account weighing in, and that is without this section yet being an official RfC. Someone else might want to turn it into an actual RfC for wider input. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 01:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Given the obvious canvassing that happened during Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cultural impact of Michael Jackson (2nd nomination), it's tempting... but it's difficult for admins to justify protecting talk pages that aren't being subject to "the most severe cases of vandalism" or something similar. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:28, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I mentioned it because Wikipedia:General sanctions/Michael Jackson notes that semi-protecting talk pages may be used in cases of obvious sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry, which came about after extensive discussion that included agreement that the Jackson talk pages will at times need such protection. As is clear by other statements above, the IP and Baagh are obvious. But since it's only two at the moment, maybe semi-protection is not needed. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 03:17, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, if turned into an official RfC, there would need to be some tweaking to the wording or fresh wording would need to go above the initial wording. I state this per the neutrality that WP:RfC requires. And per WP:Consensus, consensus is not a vote (unless it's something like WP:RfA). Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 22:17, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I see that despite what I stated above about turning this into an RfC, an RfC tagged was added and the RfC is currently unsorted. Oh well. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 19:36, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@Flyer22 Frozen: Semi-protected for two months per GS mandate. Anyone can request an unprotection after the RfC elapses. @Israell: Your ping did not go through for some reason, and thank you very much for asking but I am only involved in this area as an administrator, so I'll have to decline. --qedk (t 愛 c) 19:06, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

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Square One has a glaring mistake within 20 seconds with an information graphic that is false. Film needs to editing with correction to be factual.

Less than 20 seconds into Square One, there is a glaring mistake with the screen reading "On January 25th, 1994, Michael Jackson settled a civil lawsuit with the Chanders for $15 million". The New York Times reported "In January 1994, Jackson settled the case with The Chandlers for $23 million, with $5 million going to the family’s lawyers. Prosecutors dropped the criminal case after the boy declined to cooperate. Jordan Chandler ultimately received 15,331,25.00 alone and was paid in a trust outside of payments to his lawyer or parents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bananasasas (talk • contribs)

And? What is the reason for talking this to the talk page?★Trekker (talk) 20:29, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

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Coatrack stuff

What exactly does these huge sections have to do with this film?★Trekker (talk) 15:03, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

User:Lucieindasky Please stop adding this stuff, it doesnt belong in the article based on what Im seeing.★Trekker (talk) 16:57, 19 June 2020 (UTC)