Talk:Spread of Islam

NPOV needed

This article has a few passages with clearly biased points of view and should be written much more neutrally. Examples of quotes include "The infamous Hakim (Al-Hakim bi-amr-Allah, the sixth Egyptian Caliph, 996-1021, who became the god of the Druze) determined to destroy the Holy Sepulchre (In 1010.)" Infamus? God of the Druze? What? "Yet, in spite of all, Christianity failed, and Islam succeeded in gaining the Iranian race." I think there is a much better way of saying that. --213.174.190.59 17:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The Spanish section talks of the 100 or so years of the Convivencia as if it extended throughout the 700 years of Al-Andalus (some of the Muslim kingdoms were extremely cruel) and reflects this idea of Islamic enlightenment against a European cruelty which was also only a particular time and aspect. This is racist. It should be improved. I'll try to find the time, but... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.102.232 (talk) 18:54, 6 September 2009 (UTC) yes i am not a muslim and i find this quite biased —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.133.109.207 (talk) 18:47, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. I just deleted the following paragraph which was on its own at the end of the Southeast Asia section, with no source at all. Even if it had had a source, it would be biased. "

"I become more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers and his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle"."

I normally don't just delete anything - or even make more than very minor edits - but I admit to losing patience with respect to the aggressiveness with which some views are pushed. I don't edit war, so if this section is put back I won't even know about it. alacarte (talk) 12:34, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Poor title

The title of this article, Islam Spread, sounds like some sort of butter or margarine product. I don't understand why this page was moved from Spread of Islam to here. I'm going to move it back because Spread of Islam is grammatically correct and this is not.--Lendorien 18:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Good call. Spread of Islam is the title I had in mind when I came here (without any searching).--Adoniscik (talk) 02:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Might well this sentence: non-Muslims were subject to some restrictions on participation in political life. . . Be more accurately stated : "non-Muslims were subject to restrictions on participation in political, and even social life." Cutugno (talk) 20:49, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I still think it is a poor title. 'Spread' is still a margarine-like word, and worse, it has links to pathologies, e.g. the spread of disease. The page 'spread of christianity' redirects to 'history of christianity'. I think this page should be titled the same - 'the history of islam'. Amphibio (talk) 12:15, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Merge suggestion

I don't think this page should be merged with Islamization. Spread of Islam is mostly (or should) deal with the historical aspect of the religion's spread, whereas "Islamization" is a more recent concept, mainly to do with the more recent political manuvers. .--bandishhh 22 June 2007.

As an editor interested in historical aspects of Islam (and author of The coming of Islam to Indonesia (1200 to 1600)), I agree with bandishhh's assessment. Merbabu 08:02, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Merge does not mean simply that this page dissapears. Maybe what is needed is for the recharecterization of the Islamization page then or having it redirect to this one. Right now it has a lot of information that I see is pretty much an overlap with what we have here and it can all go into one page. Either here or there or even somewhere else. Right Islamization seems to trace the historical spread of Islam better than this page.--Tigeroo 00:18, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup to-do

• Spotty sourcing. Some sections are well sourced, others not at all.
• Different styles of sourcing. Some sections use different styles of sourcing than others. styles need to be unified.
• Data duplication. Some sections seem to repeat information.
• NPOV check. May contain issues with a lack of a nuetral POV. --Lendorien (talk) 19:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
• Corrected the spelling of the word "persecution" in the fifth paragraph of the section on Early Islam, which had been misspelled "persuction". -- 9:40, 02 January 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.50.0.245 (talk)

Map would be good

At least one map with details would help the reader to make a better picture about the topic.--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 10:08, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I've added one, but more are needed. The page is currently very text heavy and consequently dull. Fig (talk) 11:39, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Semi-protection

This article has been semi-protected. Semi-protection prevents edits from unregistered users (IP addresses), as well as edits from any account that is not autoconfirmed (is at least four days old and has at least ten edits to Wikipedia) or confirmed. Such users can request edits to this article by proposing them on this talk page, using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template if necessary to gain attention. New users may also request the confirmed user right by visiting Requests for permissions. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 23:15, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, a map of the world at various times would be very helpful, or individual continents during relevant periods. -- Beland (talk) 20:42, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Neutrality Tag Needed

This article is completely biased. It overlooks and glosses over forced conversions and is dishonest about how Islam treated Jews and Christians. Please add a neutrality tag and/or fix the article. 214.13.69.132 (talk) 11:49, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Phases

RiseofIslam (talk · contribs) is removing it from the sections. please explain your position and build up consenss first--DBigXray 12:16, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Islam in the Eastern Europe

Why is there no mention in this article about the spread of Islam in Eastern Europe (modern-day Russia and Ukraine)? Its spread begins with the conversion of the Volga Bulgars and large numbers of Khazars to Islam, followed by their conquest at the hands of Mongols, and later the establishment of the Golden Horde, who's majority Turkic (Cuman & Kipchak) were Islamized, along with the ruling Mongols and others, all of whom would become known as Tatars by the Russians. The Islamic period here would end when the Russians conquered the khanates that resulted out of the disintegration of the Golden Horde and forcefully assimilated a large part of the Muslim population.

I think this is very important for the history of Islam, yet it is rarely ever mentioned in many Wiki articles dealing with Islamic history, and when it is, the Tatars are usually misrepresented (whether innocently or purposefully) as "Mongol invaders converting to Islam and oppressing the Russian people", when in reality the Russians had not yet settled the areas of the Golden Horde and the majority of "Tatars" are descended not from Mongols, but from indigenous Finnic, Iranic, and Turkic peoples; the Mongols only formed a small elite ruling class.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Fernirm (talk • contribs) 18:10, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree with 'Fernirm', and as for a neutral POV that should be mentioned, I know what you are talking about with the belief of the islamic invasion mentality of early Russia, however it is Russia that gradually grew into those areas which were often not ever populated by Russians or ever owned by Russia/Muscovy/Kievan Rus (mostly around the Kazakh border and very southern caucasus). Its a matter of finding the sources from anthropological/archeological data and presenting their academic views in the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by SandeepSinghToor (talk • contribs) 08:04, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

IP Removed "he believed" from summary.

In this diff and IP removed the words "he believed" from "The spread of Islam began when, around 613 CE, the prophet Muhammad (570 – 632 CE) began to share the revelation which he believed God (Allah) had started to give to him three years previously." Is this appropriate? Does this make the article fall into or out of line with articles of a similar nature? I don't spend enough time working on religious articles to know, but I thought I'd bring it up. Zell Faze (talk) 11:40, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Well he believed does not sound very academic but in an attempt to not show bias language is used that neither acts as if it was absolutely true or absolutely false, therefore wording it in a way that shows this might have led to the he believed, I still think it should be more along the lines of, he is said to have witnessed etc. As in how a documentary might say, the lion is taking a nap, we could talk about it without making about his personal belief etc. which I think could be contested, I believe claim is another word used, although not sure on what consensus there is around this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SandeepSinghToor (talk • contribs) 08:00, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect sources

This article needs to have its sources checked, as [13] is incorrect: it says Hourani, but when examining page 198 in his book A History of the Arab Peoples the cited source does not support the statements using it on Wikipedia. However when examining page 198 in Ira Lapidus' book A History of Islamic Societies it supports the statements in the Wikipedia article. I would assume that it is simply incorrectly cited, and since I for some reason cannot change the "Notes", I hope someone else can correctly change it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.218.200.246 (talk) 07:51, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Spread of Islam/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

My degree was in history and this article reads more like something you'd see on a nationalist-type website. This is really not very accurate and should be scrapped and a new impartial contributer found.

Last edited at 19:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 06:45, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Expansion during Muhammad's lifetime

Can someone include information regarding the spread of Islam while Muhammad was alive? I was wondering if he started the military campaigns of conquest to expand Islam or if he spread Islam peacefully and only defended himself militarily when attacked. Thinker78 (talk) 00:48, 16 March 2020 (UTC) The Prophet Muhammad and his followers were subjected to persecution and torture by the Quraysh masters in Mecca and forced to migrate towards Abyssinia and the Prophet towards Medina, there the tribes of Aws and Khazraj converted to Islam, and the Quraysh were afraid of the Prophet’s control of trade routes towards the Levant, and that was the reason for the war — Preceding unsigned comment added by Romeo778 (talk • contribs) 16:05, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

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"Islamic Crusades" listed at Redirects for discussion

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"Muslim Crusades" listed at Redirects for discussion

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"History of Islamic conquests" listed at Redirects for discussion

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"Arab expansion" listed at Redirects for discussion

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Social studies

Spread of Islam 39.34.149.189 (talk) 11:52, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

39.34.149.189(talk)11:54,9 october 39.34.149.189 (talk) 11:55, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Proposal for Updating the “Spread of Islam” Wikipedia Page to Include Colonial Aspects

The “Spread of Islam” Wikipedia page currently focuses on the expansion of Islam through military conquests, trade, and missionary work. However, the narrative would be more accurate and comprehensive by incorporating elements of colonialism, as Islamic expansion shared several features with colonial enterprises. This proposal outlines why and how these aspects should be integrated into the page, with citations from reputable sources.

1. Defining Colonialism and its Relevance: Colonialism is the practice of extending a nation’s sovereignty over other territories by establishing control over the political, economic, and cultural life of the subjugated peoples. Islamic expansion, especially during the Rashidun and Umayyad Caliphates, fits this definition as it involved imposing rule over vast regions, controlling local economies, and spreading Islamic culture and religion.
2. Imposition of Islamic Rule: Islamic expansion wasn’t solely a military conquest but included the establishment of Islamic governance and legal systems (Sharia). The Caliphates replaced pre-existing governance structures in the conquered territories, imposing their political systems and legal frameworks, which is a key characteristic of colonialism.
3. Islamic rulers often exploited the economies of the conquered regions for the benefit of the central authority. The collection of the jizya (a tax levied on non-Muslims) and control over trade routes allowed the Islamic empire to economically benefit from the territories it governed. This exploitation of resources is a key characteristic of colonial rule.
4. Though Islamic expansion was not always accompanied by forced conversions, the imposition of Islamic culture, religion, and language (particularly Arabization) over time reshaped the societies of the conquered regions. The spread of Islamic governance, language, and religion fits within the colonial model of cultural domination, much like European colonialism spread Christianity and European languages.
5. To provide a fuller understanding of Islamic expansion, the page should be updated to reflect the colonial dimensions of the early Islamic conquests. Specifically, the introduction should be expanded to state that Islamic rule involved not only military conquest but also the long-term imposition of political systems, economic exploitation, and cultural dominance—key elements of colonialism.

For example, the page could include the following: “The spread of Islam was not merely a religious movement but also involved the establishment of political control, economic exploitation, and cultural dominance over the conquered regions. These features align with the broader definition of colonialism, where a dominant power exerts long-term control over foreign territories.”

Conclusion: The renaming or updating of the “Spread of Islam” page to include the term “colonialism” would provide a more accurate depiction of the historical events. By acknowledging that Islamic expansion involved not only military victories but also long-term political, economic, and cultural control over conquered populations, we can offer a more nuanced and factual account of Islamic history.

This approach allows the reader to better understand the multifaceted nature of Islamic expansion and aligns with modern scholarly interpretations of colonialism in its various forms. Sprmni (talk) 18:22, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

@Sprmni, please write proposals in your own words instead of generating them using an LLM. It's not reasonable to expect other users to discuss a proposal with you that you didn't actually write. Remsense ‥ 论 20:01, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

These are my own words, grammatically and structurally corrected using an LLM.

Moving forward I ask that you focus on the substance of the discussion rather than the style of writing, as the phrasing is not related to the content in question. Please engage with the key points being raised. Sprmni (talk) 00:06, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

My reasoning was not stylistics, but that you cannot reach consensus regarding matters that you didn't yourself articulate to begin with. Now that you've clarified that these are your points, I gladly accept that. However, I ask that you not do this going forward, if only because the presentation generated was genuinely much more difficult to understand than it needed to be as a result of the LLM's lack of context. We'll understand you perfectly fine. I've reformatted it for accessibility purposes—this is even harder to read for editors using screen readers than it was for me. Remsense ‥ 论 00:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the points themselves: you've provided sources, but it would be nice if you cited specific page numbers and brief quotes supporting the language you want added to the article. Remsense ‥ 论 00:38, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

References