Talk:Specialist (rank)

July 2008 "Rumor"

It is rumored that all Specialists are to be converted to the Corporal rank. If true, this would constitute another way too broad brush of an approach by the Pentagon/DA, creating way too many corporals. My suggestion: get rid of the ambiguously titled "specialist" designation & replace it with an E4 "Senior PFC" rank. For example, use the current PFC insignia & place a small shield in the center i.e., the same eagle & shield used for the now specialist rank. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ANRC (talk • contribs) 04:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Why does this rank exist?

Nothing in the article about why the Specialist rank exists. 140.185.96.57 (talk) 13:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The Specialist 5 rank should be brought back (they probably threw it away when they wanted to get rid of the Spec 6 ranks). But now politics is probably in the way of bringing back the Spec 5 rank. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.217.231 (talk) 04:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Specialist Is Everything Not Combat Leadership::

I was in the army at the time they began phasing out the Spec 5's and 6's. The Army at that time was wanting to develop leaders. That is fine and everything, but not everyone wants to be a leader - some just want to go to work and then go back home/barracks. The specialists were similar to the Warrant officers, they were technicians in the support fields, and were in leadership roles when a striped NCO wasn't around. Artillery, Infantry, Armory etc. were examples where soldiers need to wear stripes, because they need clear lines of authority/subordination. Quartermaster, Medics, Mechanics etc. are examples where specialists are needed in the chain. Too bad no one cares enough to prod the Pentagon on why they need to be put back into the ranks. MPA 22:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

MPA, I agree. However, the Pentagon/DA doesn't seem to be capable of even making corporals out of the specialists who are in de facto leadership positions. Junior enlisted ranks don't draw much attention from the Pentagon unless there's a perception of some impending crisis.

What is a specialist about at all?

This article gives me no real indication as to whether a specialist these days actually has a specialisation - i.e. are there communication specialists? Cooks? Mechanic specialists? Someone please explain, preferrably in the entry paragraph. MadMaxDog 06:45, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

A Specialist is just that, a Specialist in their MOS. they are experts in whatever job they have been trained in. i personally feel that the rank ought to be phased out and that all E-4's should be at the rank of Corporal and be Jr. NCO's. Keltik31 17:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Specialist (in as far as the US Army is concerned) is merely a rank - it is ZERO indicator of someone's skill level. The reason I say this is because you can either be promoted to Specialist early (by getting a waiver, which you have to work for), or you can get promoted to Specialist merely from time-in-grade, by doing nothing other than waiting. As long as you're not administratively flagged due to UCMJ or PT failure (or the overweight program), you will AUTOMATICALLY gain the rank of E-4 Specialist given enough time. It doesn't look as good as getting a waiver and getting promoted early, but the fact remains that there are a lot of dirtbag E4s out there who don't know their jobs and don't make a good enough attempt to learn their jobs - many of them remain E4s for years. On the same subject, I believe the RCP (Retention Control Point, basically the get-promoted-or-get-out point) for Specialist is 12 years - but given current events, you're more likely to get forcibly promoted to E5 Sergeant than getting kicked out. Anyone who's been in the US Army can vouch for the number of E5s out there who shouldn't be NCOs. To answer MadMaxDog - there are "specialists" in different fields, but what you're talking about are Military Occupational Specialties, or the MOS system. For example, 25B is "Information Systems Operator/Analyst". 25B is an MOS - a "specialty". It only means that the soldier is more likely to be put in a server room somewhere, maintaining computers, than to be put in (for example) a Stryker, driving around raising hell. It doesn't EXCLUDE the soldier from that, however - they're just as likely to work supply, or admin, or NBC - the Army will TRY to match your job with your MOS but there is no guarantee. Bottom line: "Specialist", as in the RANK, is only a pay grade. It is NOT an indicator of skill level or MOS - that is something entirely different. There are Specialists (E-4s) in every MOS in the Army that I'm aware of. 214.13.173.15 (talk) 19:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Prior to creation of the All Volunteer Army (1973) the Specialist E4 rank was not based upon simply having time in grade. The "magic" that accompanied certain promotions derived from what might be called "social engineering" by Command. Promotion to Specialist E4 was sometimes used as a tool to "spread the wealth", at times regardless of the qualifications of (some of)the people promoted. Of course, Command retained the right of inviolability if some of their approved promotions, including socially engineered promotions, later appeared ill-conceived due to the behavior of some of those promoted.

four year degrees

those new recruits that have a four year degree enter as e-4. Keltik31 17:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I always considered those four year degree specialists as "Shake and Bakes" they didn't come up through the ranks and had no idea how to do the job but were put in the position that requires some knowledge. JRSofty (talk) 19:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

"Sham shield"

Is the explanation of this slang valid? "Sham" after all, is also another word for "fake," making it potentially more derogatory. Nick Cooper 10:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Specialists outrank Privates so Privates tend to get tasked out first to do the less desirable work details, the little bit of rank is often just enough to save the Specialists from having to get involved. At the same time a Specialist dosen't have the added leadership responsibilities that a Sergeant does. This happy middle ground between ranks often keeps Specialists out of undesirable work. In the US Army slang if you are avoiding work you are said to be "Shamming". This is were "Sham Shield" comes from. Ultratone85 09:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

How much responsibility a Specialist has depends heavily upon how undermanned their unit is. I'm currently part of a 40-man unit filling an NCO position as our unit's Nuclear/Biological/Chemical NCO. The only difference between my current duties and that of a "real" NCO in my place is that I'm not in charge of any lower-ranking soldiers. In a larger unit I'd be expected to manage several Privates/PFCs. Most Specialists that do this well get promoted to Corporal, or sent to Warrior Leader Course if they're promotable. And yes, "Sham" is part of US Army vernacular. It means "to evade work", usually some irritating or unpleasant work detail. 84.173.175.159 14:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Add: I would consider this true since, my father was an SP4 1960-1964. He was in the Army Band as head trumpet at the beginning of the Vietnam conflict(Actually played at times with the USO). He was on his way out and the Army offered him Juilliard if he stayed another 4 years. Well, since he was already a "Shammer" he shammed his way out(he understood what was going on over there). End result was aside from 1 person from his unit that stationed in Alaska with him, the entire company he was with died in Vietnam. I may not have been born if he stayed in(something I always think about). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.152.30.123 (talk) 15:43, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Is a Specialist really a Specialist any more?

My dad was among the first Specialists when he was in the Army, 1957-1959. He had been in the Army National Guard and made it to Corporal (hard two-striper). Strange turn of events - when he got out of the Guard, he wanted to enlist in the Navy (I think he actually filled out the paperwork) but then got drafted into the Army! Because of his ArNG service, he went in as a PFC and after basic (he had to go to Army basic - back then the Guard didn't send its personnel to Army basic like they do now) he soon became a Specialist Four. It sounds weird, but that's the military.

???? R U Sure he got drafted?? ANG duty assigned a different selective service classification than no ANG duty.

He told me he got the SP4 because he had a technical MOS (radio repairman). As I understood it from him, a Specialist back then was kind of a rough equivalent to an enlisted version of a Warrant Officer - a specialist in a certain field. He was kind of a hellraiser back then so he never advanced beyond SP4 (he did get an honorable discharge!), but had he done so he probably would have gone to SP5. I never heard him refer to the "Sham Shield" and had anyone said that to him their face probably would have ran into his fist...even though he was hardly Soldier of the Year material, he was proud to have served. I think he told me the highest Specialist grade he ever actually saw was SP6.

But another weird thing involving this rank...my ex-brother-in-law was in during the 1970s and had held both the ranks of SP5 and Sergeant. He had two different uniforms with the two different sleeve insignia (I saw them). He rejoined in 1980 but went straight back to Sergeant stripes, then Staff Sergeant - he never went the "Specialist" route again.

Now it seems that I see very, very few Corporals in the Army (I knew one in the ArNG) but a lot of Specialists, and most of the ones I've met don't have a "special" MOS. I agree, this rank should be abolished and soldiers should go from PFC to Corporal, but after they have leadership training. The Canadians have a rank called Master Corporal (who are often drill instructors); maybe the Army could do something like that, or like the USMC and British Army with Lance Corporal.

I was in the ANG, and for a few years the Air Force had a similar thing. There were two ranks in paygrade E-4, Senior Airman (SrA) and Sergeant (Sgt), or just "buck." As I was getting out, the Air Force was phasing out Sgt but kept SrA in E-4. Now an SrA goes directly to Staff Sergeant (SSgt), which is weird - there's no "Sergeant" in between, and there's a rank of Technical Sergeant, which is kind of misleading because some TSgts don't really do anything "technical," though they're often in supervisory positions. It seemed odd anyway, having E-4's carry the title of "Sergeant"; I think AF ranks should be restructured with SrA being E-4 and Sgt being E-5...but nobody asked me.

AF won't ever change - their mentality is still affected from having once been part of the Army. So, they encourage the position that the average AF E4 is smarter than the adverage Army E4 by having, to them, fancier titles/rank symbols, which, to them, carry the message that AF E4s have greater responsibilites as a group. Who knows, they may have a point.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by ANRC (talk • contribs) 01:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Can an E-4 Corporal be a Drill in the Army, or does one have to be at least an E-5 Sergeant to be a Drill? An SrA can be a Military Training Instructor in the AF (I've known one). I don't think a Corporal can be a DI in the Marines. I'm not sure about a PO3 in the Navy/Coast Guard.--MarshallStack 16:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm a specialist in the US Army, and I think I may be able to shed some incite into your questions. I very much doubt that the term "sham shield" existed when your dad served, it's likely impossible to pinpoint the exact time of it's origin, but I tend to believe it probably came about in the last ten years. When your dad served there was a very different rank structure. Back in World War II non-combat MOS's wore "technical rank". So a mechanic E-5 was a Tech Sergeant, while an Infantry E-5 was a Sergeant. Sometime after the war they went to the system that your father would have seen. As I understand "Specialist" rank was worn by anyone who wasn't in a leadership position. So an E-6 who was a squad leader was a Staff Sergeant, while an E-6 who worked as a supply clerk was a Specialist 6. This explains your ex-brother-in-law's situation. For example if he were an E-5 Mechanic he'd likely be a SP5 but if they made him a leader of a motor section he'd be promoted to Sergeant. I think both of these systems where probably done away with because they may have seemed insulting to rear echelon soldiers who tended to wear them, because a Sergeant outranked a Tech Sergeant and a Staff Sergeant outranked a Specialist 6 even though they both had the same pay grade and worked equally hard to attain their positions. Today the rank structure is somewhat similar to the one that your dad would have seen except that it's less obvious. For example a Corporal is a Specialist (both E-4) in a leadership position, a First Sergeant is a Master Sergeant (both E-8) in a leadership position, and a Command Sergeant Major is a Sergeant Major (both E-9) in a leadership position. I've never been able to figure out why they no longer have ranks comparative to SP5 SP6 and SP7 when they have them for E-4, E-8, and E-9 but I guess that's just the Army for you. As for Corporal Drill Sergeants. I dosen't happen anymore (I not actually sure if it ever did). Today to go to Drill Sergeants' School you have to be at least an E-5 Promotable (meaning you're very close to becoming a Staff Sergeant). When you leave the School you will be a Staff Sergeant. I've never heard of anyone lower than an E-6 working as a Drill Sergeant in the Army but then again this may have been commonplace decades ago when the Army was much different. You can however go to Recruiter School as a Specialist but after the school they pin Corporal rank on you. Hope this helps. Ultratone85 08:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

It actually helps a lot, thanks, Specialist. Since I was in the AF/Guard and not the Army, the relationship between Specialists and "hard-stripe" ranks was puzzling to me; but, as I said, the AF used to have both Sergeant and Senior Airman in E-4. Going from SrA to Sgt was considered a "lateral promotion" but a Sgt still outranked an E-4. We had some odd ducks in terms of AF rank; we didn't have Warrants (the last one retired from the AF Reserve in the early '90s) and a First Sergeant could be anything in the SNCO tier; all s/he had to do was add a diamond to the stripes. BTW, SrA's can be both MTI's and Recruiters now.--MarshallStack 17:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Today to go to Drill Sergeants' School you have to be at least an E-5 Promotable (meaning you're very close to becoming a Staff Sergeant). When you leave the School you will be a Staff Sergeant. Check your facts, I went through Basic in 2005 and I had several Drill Sergeants that were E-5. Our Senior Drill Sergeant was an E-6. BCT location was Fort Jackson, SC. AIT @ Fort Gordon, GA - same thing, E-5 Drills with an E-6 Senior. 84.173.175.159 14:13, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

My 2 bits worth, based on my personal experience from my time in the Army in 1971-2. The folk version going around at the time was that the only ones who had the rank of corporal were sergeants who had been busted down. While that quite likely was just a rumor, the plain and simple fact is, I have never seen a corporal, neither in my days in the Army, nor during the 10 years I lived in a town with a very large army post immediately adjacent. Every single person I knew that was promoted to E-4 was promoted to SPC4, never to corporal. A number of soldiers who went through AIT with me were selected on graduation to attend NCO school; those that successfully completed this were promoted to buck sergeant. Furthermore, every single EM club I ever saw was for E-1 through E-4, and NCO clubs were restricted to E-5 and up. In theory, as I understood it, you were supposed to be at least an E-5 to serve even in as lowly a position as a fire team leader in any infantry platoon; however, the reality was (at least in Nam) that sometimes there was not enough E-5s, or at least enough E-5s with in-country experience and sometimes E-4s were put in such positions. I myself served for short periods of time as both a fire team leader and as a squad leader while holding the rank of SPC4. It sure looks like to me that, at that time, E-1 through E-4 were merely pay grades, passed on increasing experience, training, etc., and one had to reach E-5 to hold any authority based on rank (rather than position). Wschart (talk) 05:24, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Additions and Differing View by 24.187.64.230 - moved from Article page

SPC/E-4 Specialist does posses some minuscule privilege of a "junior--junior NCO." He or she can undertake a corrective action (used to be known as "smoking") towards his peers and lower ranking enlisted men, but only if he or she does punish him-- or her--self (a SPC can tell everyone to do 50 push--up's, but he or she must do "50" as well). Specialist Mafia does have also a positive meaning. A group of "squared--away" Specialists supported by some PFC's can take care of each other and lower ranking personnel in such a way that they can aid their NCO Support Channel (NCO's and enlisted men are not a constant part of the Chain of the Command; only Officers are a constant part of the Chain of the Command) to a great mutual benefit "Keep the SGT off their butts."

REAL LIFE EXAMPLES:

In my case, Mr SPC William Lindquist was my guide when I became a "full bird private" due to my college education. Later, SPC's from the Scout Platoon would come to me first before my own NCO's would have to get involved (problem: some people just do not listen and SPC--level corrective action undertaken against such a private may not be successful). Specialist Mafia may take the burden of serving on the CQ Desk away from the NCO's. SPC Zjajo, and I did impress 1SG Simpson by running the CQ Desk at HHC (OPFOR) 1-4 INF REG JMRC Hohenfels in the flawless manner, and by going beyond the call of duty by helping to clean--up many other platoons' common areas within the building just before the Command Sergeant Akuna's inspection.

SUMMING UP:

The Specialist's rank has been devalued, but the process is being slowly reversed. Specialist Mafia has also a positive meaning. The fact that Senior Specialists can obtain certain cleaning aids sometimes before the NCO's, and above the regulations, has a lot of to do with the fact that cleaning a Platoon's common area is usually a joint effort of a Corporal and a Senior Specialist supervised by a Sergeant (I have been put in "co--charge" of it for a few weeks).

VIEW ENTERED: DATE: 29JAN08 BY: (Ex) US Army SPC/E-4 Robert Kolakowski, Infantry ibn Stanislaw ibn Jozef; born 28DEC73; out of Eugenia Kolakowska nee Zielinska "ski vs ska;" Elizabeth, NJ, 07202 and Bialystok; 908-764-2878 (for my bud's from the Army ;)).

Moved from Article page by Wikimancer (talk) 10:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge with Specialist (Singapore)

I am proposing a merger with Specialist (rank) and Specialist (Singapore) into Specialist (Military). There is no meaning in the title "Specialist (Singapore)" and we should not have pages bias towards, and be exclusive to, the United States of America. I would love to hear more on this. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hellclanner (talk • contribs) 13:33, 11 September 2013 (UTC)