Talk:Missions in Spanish Florida

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Mission in New Smyrna Beach

Does anyone have records of a Mission being located near New Smyrna Beach, Florida? There are local "legends" as well as some old ruins that are attributed to a Spanish Mission in New Smyrna Beach - but no records seem to be available. Gamweb (talk) 00:01, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Presidios west of the Florida peninsula

The only mention of a presidio I see at Tristán de Luna y Arellano is for Presidio Santa Maria de Galve, founded in 1698. There is no earlier presidio west of Tampa Bay listed in Childers. As far as I know, Tristán de Luna y Arellano's expedition did not try to establish missions, and so is outside of the scope of an article about Spanish missions, even if it did establish a presidio that Childers overlooked. The Spanish mission system in Florida never extended west of the Apalachicola River valley. By the time Pensacola was established in 1698, there were few Indians living in the area, and I have not read of any efforts to establish missions among them. - Donald Albury 00:21, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Did you see the link to the University of West Florida archeology website? There was a much earlier attempt to establish a presidio at Pensacola, way back in 1559. It did not last long, and information is sketchy, so it's unknown whether Luna planned to establish a mission, although it's likely that priests / missionaries were with the expedition. However, since the sentence is just listing presidios that Spain attempted to establish to defend La Florida, the early Pensacola attempt should be included, as it lasted longer and included a larger garrison than the Tacobaga site at Tampa Bay.

Isn't it frustrating how little information has been discovered about the Spanish Florida period??? Zeng8r (talk) 20:48, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any mention of a presidio on that page. I will note that Childers states that there were no presidios west of the Apalachicola River prior to 1698, when the Presidio Santa Maria de Galve was founded on Pensacola Bay. Even the Presidio San Marcos de Apalachee, the only presidio between Tampa Bay and St. Joseph Bay, was not established until 1718, although the site had apparently been used as a port since soon after the Apalachee missions were established. In any case, the presidios at Pensacola Bay and St. Joseph Bay were established to block French expansion eastward from Louisiana, and had no substantive connection to the Spanish mission system in Florida, which is what this article is about. - Donald Albury 02:26, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The text of the article, as it stood earlier this year, said:

The first Spanish missions to the Indians of Florida, starting with the foundation of St. Augustine in 1565, were attached to presidios. Between 1565 and 1567 ten presidios were established at major harbors from Port Royal Sound to Tampa Bay to prevent other European powers from establishing bases in the area. Most of the presidios were unsustainable. San Mateo was destroyed by the French, the entire garrison at Tocobago was wiped out, and most of the other presidios were abandoned due to a combination of hostility from the native inhabitants, difficulty in providing supplies, and poor weather. By 1573 the only remaining presidios in Florida were St. Augustine and Santa Elena, and Santa Elena was abandoned (for a second time) in 1587.^[1]

Subsequent edits obscured the connection between the text and the citation. The attempt to establish a colony at Ochuse in 1559 is outside the scope of the paragraph. The paragraph was not about attempts to protect Florida from foreign settlements, per se, but about how the first missions all had presidios attached, an experiment that failed. - Donald Albury 11:53, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Late response, but so far I have found (in present-day Florida) Santa Maria de Galve, San Marcos de Apalachee, Fort Matanzas, Fort (Gracia Real de Santa Teresa de) Mose, San Mateo, (in present-day Georgia) Presidio San Pedro de Tacatacuru, Presidio de Guale (alongside Santa Catalina de Guale), and Fort San Juan (in North Carolina.) GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 05:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See Presidio#Florida. As far as I know, Fort Mose was not a formally designated presidio. Donald Albury 15:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, sorry. I meant in coordinates. Fort Mose I'm not sure of. I will check. GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 15:58, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Childers, Ronald Wayne (2004). "The Presidio System in Spanish Florida 1565-1763". Historical Archaeology. 38 (3): 24–32. JSTOR 25617178.

Mission sites located in Spanish Florida

Yesterday I added every single precise coordinate I have to the list.

I wonder if anyone else has sources/references for any other missions that I do not have locations for?

For example, the Santa Maria mission along the Alapaha river. I have seen mentions of it but never an actual site located. If anyone has any sources for it or other missions, I would appreciate it if you put them here.

Or something like Santa Cruz de Capoli. I have seen mentions and even a picture of a site located for this mission but no maps. If anyone has more info on any missions with no coordinates, please send. :)

I will also be adding San Buenaventura de Guadalquini’s coordinates soon. GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 22:24, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't see this because I was busy editing in my own text editor and talking back and forth with Donald on his talk page. If you haven't noticed already, a heads up that I've made the move of content from "Spanish missions in Georgia" to "Missions in Spanish Florida" as discussed. Carlstak (talk) 23:10, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’m glad this move was done 🙂 GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 00:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All that I have found for the Santa Maria mission is that it was probably on the upper Alapaha River. Hann's Summary Guide repeatedly gives Santa Cruz de Capoli's distance from other missions in Apalachee Province in leagues, which doesn't help. He mentions that B. Calvin Jones has located a site he believes is Capoli, but cites a personal communication for that. A search for publications by B. Calvin Jones might turn up something. There are a lot of missions for which no candidate site has been proposed. The assignment of missions to sites can be rather tentative. The Fig Springs mission site was originally identified with Santa Catalina de Afuerica, but has since been identified with San Martin de Timucua. The location of San Buenaventura de Potano has been disputed, Donald Albury 23:40, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Santa Cruz de Capoli has a site (8Le151; https://repository.lib.fsu.edu/islandora/object/fsu%3Acastrocollectionanthro), but I don’t have any other mentions of this site that I have found. San Buenaventura de Potano I am trying to do more research on, so I will try and see if any other sites are mentioned. GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 00:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

29.496396198307377, -82.23038853185155 are the coordinates for the Richardson site (8AL100) (https://www.aucillaresearchinstitute.org/uploads/3/2/3/5/3235856/0734578x.2022%5B81099%5Dwillet_paper.pdf). Using their maps I was able to locate where the aerial photo was taken. I will add these coordinates for now because most papers seem to take it for granted that this is where the mission was located. GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 05:39, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

White had published a lot of archaeology articles, but I guess he got too invested in finding the de Soto camp on his own land. It was a bit awkward for me as someone I know was quite supportive of White. Donald Albury 15:40, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, in this chain of 4 missions (from left to right, the sites are 8JE2, 8JE1, 8JE100, and 8JE106; Aspalaga, Ayubale, Ivitachuco, and Asile), the documents I've read seem to be saying that the mission names given to these sites are inaccurate. I have the exact coordinates for what was said to be Ivitachuco and Asile. Aspalaga and Ayubale I'm still working on, but I'm not really sure whether I should add these coordinates, because if I did I'd feel like I essentially said "yeah, these sites correspond to these exact missions." GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 19:14, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://repository.lib.fsu.edu/islandora/object/fsu:176179 (which gives a few maps for Asile) and https://repository.lib.fsu.edu/islandora/object/fsu:310082/datastream/PDF/view (page 35 literally gives coordinates for the border of the Ivitachuco site.) GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 19:22, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

_{31.95746, -82.54272}^[1]^[2]^[3] may be the location for Utinahica. GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 23:09, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added a couple new coordinates, What do you all think about Mission de Tocabaga (https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=44277)? GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 01:09, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Historical Marker Database is not a reliable source, as the content is user-generated, like that of WP. Carlstak (talk) 21:10, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

True, but at least they upload pictures. We can see the markers for ourselves if we ever go there, I guess 🤣

There's also another marker near that one (https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=46671), but so far I haven't found any other sources for this supposed mission yet. GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 21:20, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the markers themselves are reliable either, as the text on them is usually written by nameless state functionaries, who are unlikely to be credentialed experts in the subject matter, or by local historical groups that erect them, and who aren't necessarily reliable sources for information either. I've seen incorrect info on such markers. Small-town historians are often incompetent to be writing historical matter and prone to falsely interpreting historical sources. I could name some, but they're living, and I wouldn't want to embarrass them. Carlstak (talk) 21:44, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I know someone who wrote the text for a local historical marker. Historical markers are no better than blogs. They may have at least some correct information, but they are not reliable sources. There is no guarantee that historical markers are even near the location of the place they are commemorating. BTW, @GoldenArmorYeah:, I noticed that you cited a blog for at least one mission's location. That will have to come out. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources#User-generated content. Donald Albury 22:34, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which one? I will take it out and try and cite a reliable source.

Also, while I was trying to expand San Pedro de Mocama's article, I found a record of at least a presidio in that area called Tocabaga. So I did find something. The Presidio System in Spanish Florida 1565-1763, page 2. GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 22:51, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tocobago was a chiefdom at the northern end of Old Tampa Bay. The presidio there was destroyed by the Tocobagos lass than a year after it was established. San Pedro de Mocama on Cumberland Island was the location of Presidio Tacatacuru. Donald Albury 23:12, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. It was only the site of missionary efforts (no mission established) and a presidio, then? GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 23:24, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not a formal mission, but the soldiers were supposed to instruct the Tocobagos in Christianity. As I recall, that was the case at several, but not all of the presidios. Donald Albury 23:35, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I think it was for the San Carlos de Chacatos location, right? I'll see if I can find any other mention of it being there and reupload if it is correct. GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 22:53, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was no presidio in Chacato territory. The Spanish built a stockade at the northern end of Apalachicola Province in 1689, which was abandoned in 1692. The fort is often called the Apalachicola Fort, but I have not seen it called a "presidio". There do not appear to have been any "presidios" created in the Florida ruled from St. Augustine after 1567. The "presidios created in western Florida from 1696 until 1755, including the Presidio San Marcos de Apalachee, created in 1718, appear to have been under the control of the government that eventually settled in Pensacola, not under St. Augustine. The colony that became Pensacola was subject to New Spain, not to St. Augustine Donald Albury 23:25, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I was referring to the mission location where I had cited a blog I keep seeing the same locaiton but I think it's all linked to the same guy putting it up there. I'll try and find another more reliable source for it. GoldenArmorYeah (talk) 23:38, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

^ Merrill, William. "Anthropology, History, and American Indians: Essays in Honor of William Curtis Sturtevant". Smithsonian Institution Press: 128 – via Academia.
^ https://archaeology.uga.edu/sites/default/files/2021-12/uga_lab_series_34.pdf
^ https://docs.house.gov/meetings/II/II24/20220512/114732/HHRG-117-II24-20220512-SD251.pdf

[childers-1] Childers, Ronald Wayne (2004). "The Presidio System in Spanish Florida 1565-1763". Historical Archaeology. 38 (3): 24–32. JSTOR 25617178.

[2] Merrill, William. "Anthropology, History, and American Indians: Essays in Honor of William Curtis Sturtevant". Smithsonian Institution Press: 128 – via Academia.

[3] ttps://archaeology.uga.edu/sites/default/files/2021-12/uga_lab_series_34.pdf

[4] ttps://docs.house.gov/meetings/II/II24/20220512/114732/HHRG-117-II24-20220512-SD251.pdf

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