Talk:Sophia Bekele/Archive 1

Archive 1

Cleanup

This is well on its way to being an excellent article, thanks to those who have been working on it.  :)

In order to improve it further, I recommend:

• Take out the URLs that are in the body of the text. Only include the most significant ones at the bottom, in the "External links" section
• Be careful of the tone of the article, which right now is too much on the promotional side. Any time that there is an aggrandizing adjective, there should be a reliable source which confirms that that adjective was used in the press or in a book somewhere (self-written press releases or websites don't count)
• Remember that we're here to provide an encyclopedia. The article should be written in a very neutral fashion, as in, "Here is who Bekele is, this is why she's notable." Anything else might be okay for a promotional website, but not for Wikipedia.

Good luck! --Elonka 14:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Elonka: Thank you for your comments of "excellent" article and edits proposed. It is an excellent input from you on teh edits and the corrections are noted. pls give me time to get some of the citations

There is one section however, in the categories that I will have to re-input back. Sophia Bekele is noted for her achievements in Business and Information technology and other areas that I had included in the original article. I presume the editor perpahs just worked on the 1st few paragraphs and was aligning the categories towards that.

As for conflict of interest, I am not sure there is, perhpahs yes, I was impressed with Sophia Bekele whom I chose to write about and use her article as a model article for some of the work we do at UC Berekeley University library, particularly at the African center. Sophia is someone that came to our university for a presentation on business and what works in Africa. She is noted for being successful in what she does in the information technology field and business. Therefore, to simply put her in a category of 'people from Ethiopia' and a 'model', seem to undermine who and what she is. Modeling is not the focus of the article, which by the way from the previous publishings as well seem to be a a part time interest.

What the focus of the article shoud be if I did not present it weel, sorry is that she is a women in Business, in the Information Technology field.

Therefore, please note my calrifications above and allow me to put back the original categories. If you feel that the categories that I chose for her does not merit her work, please also let me know why.

Thank you. I will keep on editing! I value your feedback.

Lashford (talk) 03:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Sure, let's definitely keep working on it together. The main thing to keep in mind, is that the article should stay very neutral, and that anything that's in the article should be sourced to a reliable source, rather than personal knowledge. --Elonka 03:20, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Sources

I see that a lot of the information in this article (some of it word for word) has come from this pdf.[1] I'm not comfortable that it (an editorial in an unspecified publication) satisfies our standards of reliable source, so I'd be cautious about using it. There are also possible implications of copyright violation, so be careful about how much wording comes from it. --Elonka 03:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

(followup) Most of the sources in this article appear to be self-written. I did my own search through major newspapers, but all I could find was a business filing for CBS International, as well as a brief piece about mobile phones where Bekele was one of the customers who was interviewed. All the ICANN stuff that I've checked so far is either trivial mentions (like Bekele was a speaker at a conference) or self-written letters and statements and articles by Bekele herself.

I'm still not willing to give up on proof of Bekele's notability (especially because Ethiopian papers are not well-represented in American libraries), but I'm getting more and more doubtful. Especially because it appears that Sbekele (talk · contribs) also tried this a couple years ago, self-promotion from the CBS International website (AN thread) though that time the bio was put on User:Sbekele and then deleted as a copyvio. In short, this article needs to be trimmed way down, and some reliable sources that are non-trivial mentions, need to be produced. Bekele, if you're reading this, my recommendation would be to contact local press in Walnut Creek, and see if they'll do a profile of you or your business. At least that would be a source we could use! The majority of information that should go into this article should be information that is verifiable from third-party published sources. --Elonka 10:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all for your puts and editing. I think all your concerns are valid. I have tried to improve based on eg. that you have used. I spoke with sophia yesterday. here is some clarification. I have put my responses in BOLD

[2] I'm not comfortable that it (an editorial in an unspecified publication) satisfies our standards of reliable source, so I'd be cautious about using it.

THIS IS AN ARTICLE WRITTEN BY KAY KAUFMAN FROM GOLDEN gATE UNIVERCITY. i THINK YOU ALREADY MWNTIONED IT. IS THERE ANYTHING WE CAN SUBMIT FOR YOU ON THIS?

"All the ICANN stuff that I've checked so far is either trivial mentions (like Bekele was a speaker at a conference) or self-written letters and statements and articles by Bekele herself. I'm still not willing to give up on proof of Bekele's notability (especially because Ethiopian papers are not well-represented in American libraries), but I'm getting more and more doubtful.

I AM A BIT BUZZLED ON THE ABOVE STATEMENT. I SPOKE WITH SOPHIS. SHE WAS APPOINTED AS A PUBLIC OFFICER AT ICANN, WHERE THERE IS A PRESS RELEASE IF IT. HER PRESENTATIONS AND POSITIONS SHE TOOK REGARDING HER CONSTITUACIES SEEM VALID. i AGREE ETHIOPIAN NEWSPAPERS ARE NOT WELL REPRESENTED IN US, BUT I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT WIKIPEDIA REPRESENTS INTERNATIONAL VS. US INTEREST. IN THAT NOTE, SOPHIA HAS VARIOUS BUSINESS PROFILES DONE IN ETHIOPIA AND DOES SHE HAVE TO DO THE SAME IN AMERICA?

Especially because it appears that Sbekele (talk · contribs) also tried this a couple years ago, self-promotion from the CBS International website."

I SPOKE WITH SOPHIA ON THIS, SHE SAYS SHE JUST DID A CUT AND PAST FROM THE WEBSITE, YES, SHE SAYS SHE DID NOT KNOW ALL THE RULES OF WIKIPEDIA, I.E THAT IS SOMEONE ELSE SHOULD BE WRTING ABOUT HER.

The majority of information that should go into this article should be information that is verifiable from third-party published sources.

THE SOURCES THAT I HAVE RESEARCHED ARE FROM VALID INSTITUTIONS, BE IT ICANN, THE UN OR THE COMPANIES SHE WORKED FOR. MAYBE YOU CAN HELP ME PINPOINT EXCACTLY WHaT YOU NEED TO MEET YOUR STANDARDS.

THANKS

Lashford (talk) 15:07, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The best sources would be those that are published in major sources that have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. The "Golden Gate" piece can definitely be used for some things, but anything like a major claim of notability should probably have multiple sources. But it's better than some of the other sources that are currently in the article, because it's something that someone else wrote about Bekele, instead of something that she wrote about herself. See WP:AUTO.

I'm a bit surprised that I haven't found anything about her company in American press, not even from Walnut Creek, where she is supposedly based. Neither did I find anything about film appearances, or even about her modeling. Am I searching under the wrong name? I have tried variant spellings such as "Sophia Bekele" and "Sofia Bekele". Did she model under a different name? What about Fick's book? I don't have a copy easily available to me, but how much space did he devote to Bekele? Was it a mention in one line, or an entire chapter? --Elonka 15:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

CBS International is a company she set up to transfer technology to emerging economies. So the focus of her work and contract were outside US.

As for film and modeling, she used the same name, but it was a part time work she did and not necessarily in famous films that will put her in exposure, same as a hobby of golf and bicycle. She has shot commercials with ATT phone and the role as 'extra' in films is very minor so I can in fact I agree to remove those two, but the modeling work she did on and off for many years. She did not take it serious enough to keep records. She says she has a full potfolio and was professionally represented. She did mostly runway work.

The Dave Fick Book, I have a copy. He has devoted a whole section on her from East Africa and very few were represented from her country at this level as well. The book is available at amazon.com.

Addistiionally, the publication she wrote was onlt on for Addis Fortune, but for Addis Capital, Addis Reporter, Golden Gate University, Africa Tribune, Ethiopian review to name a few. I hope this helps. Thanks Lashford (talk) 00:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Travel

Currently the article says that Bekele has been to 260 countries. We very much need a source for this kind of claim, especially since the United Nations lists less than 200. --Elonka 09:06, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

AGREE...MY FAULT... IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN 260 CITIES INSTEAD. I HAVE CORRECTED IT...THANKS

Lashford (talk) 15:09, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Elonka-

Thanks for your help....Sorry, I saw this comments after I have removed what u called editing war. Ok, then, I will restore it again. But is it not possible to use a user page until all the debates of "self promotion" is completed. Also, what seem to be th eproblem with this profile. I have seen a lot of people that are profiled in the 'information technology sectio' or p 'people in business' etc... that have not acheived much, but they seem to have gotten a space in Wikipedia? I am totally at a lose now. Thanks for your help again and let us please talk. Lashford (talk) 16:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Tags

I have (again) restored the {{coi}}, {{peacock}} and {{cleanup}} tags to the article. I realize that the original author (and/or Bekele) may not like them, but it is for the best right now. If the tags continue to be removed, there may be further repercussions, ranging from having account access blocked, to having the article nominated for deletion. And trust me, a deletion discussion would be highly unpleasant for Bekele, as several Wikipedians who had never heard of her, would then debate whether or not she was famous enough for a bio. To be honest, as the article's sourcing stands right now, the verdict would stand a strong likelihood of being "delete", and there would probably be several unkind things said about Bekele's self-promotion. That discussion would then be publicly archived on Wikipedia. So please, just leave the tags alone for now, until we can get things fixed, thanks. I'm genuinely trying to help here, believe it or not.  :) --Elonka 15:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Elonka --- I note whay u said here----

"would then debate whether or not she was famous enough for a bio. To be honest, as the article's sourcing stands right now, the verdict would stand a strong likelihood of being "delete", and there would probably be several unkind things said about Bekele's self-promotion."

May I please ask if the cause is that the article is taken in the category of " famous people or a bio?" the intent is not that at all. The intent is to note the notable achivements of Sophia Bekele relative to het business accomplishments, maybe then we can reconsider the article for that instead of what you call a 'bio' and edit it within that framework, instead of the personal stuff, cause I think that seem to be the one that cannot be refernced right?. thanks

Lashford (talk) 17:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Elonka-

Thanks for your help....Sorry, I saw this comments after I have removed what u called editing war. Ok, then, I will restore it again. But is it not possible to use a user page until all the debates of "self promotion" is completed. Also, what seem to be th eproblem with this profile. I have seen a lot of people that are profiled in the 'information technology sectio' or 'people in business' etc... that have not acheived much, but they seem to have gotten a space in Wikipedia? I am totally at a lose now. Thanks for your help agaon and let us please talk.

Lashford (talk) 16:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

If you give me specific examples of other bios that you have questions about, I'll try to explain. In the meantime, the best thing that you can do is to search for other sources that talk about Bekele, and/or to remove information in this article, which does not come from what Wikipedia calls a reliable source. --Elonka 20:06, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks you agian Elonka: Agree with you. I tried to summerize your concern re: citations here. Please advise on the citations required for the following: Otherwise, yes, we can remove anything that does not link to an on-line reference is that it?

1. Share ownership:  ???
2. TV Commercials and Extra role on film: it was a long time ago and aside from the agency that booked her, she does not have any evidence to show evidence. She has not kept a record. ( she can send you the resume she was using at the time for representations, but that is all.
3. 260 cities: She has few of the around the world trip videos, which is on her personal blog (whatidowhereido.blogspot.com), which she has public, the rest is on flickr, which is private, but will make it available for your viewing for this purposes only.
4. Travel Diary: is part of the personal blog at the above address. Can I refernce her personal blog? or directly to the video?
5. Reflect upbringing:  ??? 6. Donation of street lamp and dedication: She says she can provide evidence of it via a photo.
7. Have found happiness: ??? 8. Work evidence for Onscreen, Intel, BDO etc… can present reference for your verifications
9. Hig-level advisory boards: This is the same as the pointed items below. As you can see they are all considered : “high-level” by the institution’s standards. UNGAID, AISI, ICANN, WAC etc… most of her associations can be googled, but she can also provide reference if that is what you like.

Note: Please also refer to the book on Dave Fick and, she can also provide contact to him, who has done a lot of research in Africa on Entrepreneurship and her profile is listed amongst the many in the book for her work in Africa.

Additionally, also note that most of the newspaper references are online , all major universities including UC Berkley have African studies and all major newspapers from Africa are archived at the library of congress.

Thank you and let me know if you require anything further. Sorry, I did not know I should not edit the article once you folks started the work! Let me know when I can go and remove/edit information. Lashford (talk) 21:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Elonka:

I am presneting this to you for deletion, since the edits and the facts gathered is not represnetative of the story if it is to be written like a biography.

Bekele returned to the United States in 2003, and become a corporate consultant

I see no point of pinpointing on facts while the reasons behind them are not reported. for eg. sophi'a return to the US to be a corporate consultant has a story behind it that is usful an cause for a curiousity for a reader, that is why I put the original there. You have deleted the references to the companies she consulted with, and it seem like it is only half a story reported. Where is the proof for anyone that she become a corporate consultant as well , if we do not say who she worked for? I appreciate if you correct this.

In 2002, she was a panelist on one of the informal panels about economic development at the United Nations, representing her Ethiopia with her company CBS International.

Here also, I do not understand why this is singled out, she just presented her project profile in Kigali at a high level summit, which you have delete and the various presentations she has made at ICANN as well. Is there a reason why you are choosing one over the other?

Bekele is involved in public affairs commentary and has written for Ethiopian periodicals such as Addis Fortune.

Here also, the citations you made is representative of only one newspaper. There are various sources that is evidenced in the site that you obtained this from. Is there a reason that u have singled this one out?

thanks—Preceding unsigned comment added by Lashford (talk • contribs) 15:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your efforts here, and I see that you are working hard to learn The Way of the Wiki, and your formatting is improving.  :)

Please do go ahead and edit the article, just be careful what information that you add.

For many of Bekele's accomplishments, it unfortunately does not matter whether the information is true. What matters if whether the information has been published. Blogs do not count as published. See WP:SELFPUB.

In terms of the things that I have been changing, I am not trying to give more weight to anything yet, I am just doing "first pass" editing.

Sources do not have to be online, in order to be used. However, they do need to be verifiable by other editors who have access to libraries.

In terms of what you can do:

• Please format all references on the article, per Wikipedia's citation format. See WP:CITE. The most useful one for you will probably be {{cite web}}:

{{cite web |url=  |title= |accessdate=yyyy-mm-dd |author= |date= |work= |publisher= }}

• Please remove any information from the article, which does not come from a published source

• Please be very careful that the information in the article, accurately reflects what's in the source. For example, there was a section that said that Bekele had given presentations to the United Nations General Assembly. However, the source didn't say that, instead, it was a United Nations press release which announced some official presentations, and also mentioned that at the same time there were to be some informal panels, Bekele as a panelist. I find it very concerning that the source was exaggerated in that way, just as I found it concerning about the claim that Bekele had been to 260 countries. To be honest, my concern is that the entire article is full of exaggerations like that. So every source must be reviewed carefully to ensure that it is being used properly.

I will continue to help as I can, but this article needs many hours of work, and I can only help a little bit each day. But bit by bit, I am confident that it will get better!  :) --Elonka 15:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for all your work Elonka - Yes, I guess I am learning the Wiki edit way, true. I was writing it more like an editorial. Despite, I have made corrections to some of the error I have made, like 260 countries vs. cities. Regarding the UN General Assembley, however, if you read clearly, the UN General Assemblet held a high level meeting in ICT and sophia was one of the Panelist and presenters. She in fat gave a presentation during the General Assesmbley held for ICT, so I will edit it that way. Thanks.

True also, I takled to het about press realeses of her work in US media and she says she did not think about it in the past, since her market is overseas, but I think she has been alert to it since you mentioned it, which is good.

Thank you again and I appreciate your input. It is also fund to learn the Wiki way, although i tell you I do not quite like that polict that Wilki only publishes from a third source. i.e for eg. I saw all the trips sophia made on her video she released... why it is that that story have to be published to believe it is true. Does Wiki not trust its editors/contributors to do the research and state what they evidenced as tru without the requirement of publishing. Thanks for explaining if you can. Lashford (talk) 16:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)