Talk:Sonic the Hedgehog/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Indrian (talk · contribs) 19:29, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

I’ll do this. It’s a big topic, so I may attack it piecemeal. Indrian (talk) 19:29, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

This is a very big article, so I'll also help out and review it. Namcokid47 ^(Contribs) 17:11, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Lead

• "Sonic the Hedgehog is a Japanese video game series and media franchise created by Sonic Team and owned by Sega" - This is the lead, so I know we don't want to get bogged down in minutiae, but the modern entity known as "Sonic Team" did not create the franchise. The first game was developed by a group that did identify itself as "Sonic Team," but this was not an official business unit within Sega at the time. Sonics, 2, 3, and Knuckles were created at STI in the United States, while Sonic CD was developed by a separate team in Japan led by Ohshima. The Sonic Team as understood today was constituted when Naka returned to Japan from STI. Obviously the lead should not go into all of that, but I am not sure "created by Sonic Team" really captures the facts either.
  • Changed to just "created and owned by Sega," if that's any better. JOEBRO64 00:57, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
• "The main Sonic the Hedgehog games are platformers developed by Sonic Team" - Again, not every "main game" was a Sonic Team creation, though that is certainly true of anything done in the last couple of decades or so.
  • Added a "mostly". JOEBRO64 00:57, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
• "was developed after Sega requested a new mascot character to replace Alex Kidd" - There is a long-standing myth that Alex Kidd was a mascot character for Sega, probably because of a feeling that a game designed to compete with Super Mario Bros. must necessarily also have starred a character designed to compete with Mario. Alex Kidd creator Kotaru Hayashida addressed this situation himself in an interview. When asked "Was there ever any talk about having Alex Kidd be the official corporate mascot for Sega?", Hayushida responded: "At that time Sega didn’t really have any official framework in place for the promotion of such a character, and we weren’t lucky enough to have Alex Kidd get that big naturally."
  • Removed. JOEBRO64 00:57, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Development

• "Sega's mascot, Alex Kidd, was considered too similar to Mario." - Again, Alex Kidd was never a mascot, though Sega certainly may have promoted him as one if the games had been more successful. Western media sources get this wrong a lot because they did not have good access to Japanese-language sources even just a decade ago. We have a greater understanding of this now.
  • Removed. JOEBRO64 00:57, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
• "although designer Hirokazu Yasuhara said the instruction was given to only him, artist Naoto Ohshima, and programmer Yuji Naka." - If you look at the back and forth between Yasuhara and the interviewer in the original source, he does not actually appear to be contradicting the standard narrative. Its clear Yasuhara did not understand the original question and asked for clarification and focused on "how we wound up choosing between an armadillo and a hedgehog." When he answers the next question about who made that decision, he talks about it being the three of them, which is completely true. They had a rabbit early in development, decided to change the character to either an armadillo or a hedgehog during the course of development, and finally settled on what became Sonic. This was all AFTER any contest would have taken place. So his answer is accurate, but its not quite answering the question the interviewer was trying to ask. Ohshima himself remembers multiple teams presenting ideas for a mascot character in The History of Sonic The Hedgehog, which is criminally underused in this article at the moment. Yasuhara only became involved with Sonic after those initial decisions and therefore would not have first-hand knowledge of that phase of design.
• "Regardless, the winning character was a teal hedgehog created by Ohshima" - This is not quite accurate, the winning concept was Naka and Ohshima's platformer with a rabbit character in the leading role at the time. Ohshima remembers the concept being selected when only he and Naka were on the project, and the hedgehog character was not in place until after Yasuhara also joined the team. This is all a bit hazy and there may be some problems with the memories of the participants when regarding the sequence of events, but Ohshima laid it out thusly in an interview:

Q: Oshima, you were the one who came up with the original plan for Sega’s hit of hits, Sonic the Hedgehog, right?

A: Yes. I had been with Sega for exactly three years, when the President announced a company-wide petition for new ideas for “a product that will be a big hit in America!” I brought him my plans for Sonic and they were accepted. Persistence is key, as they say, and I had always thought that after three years of training at Sega, I would like to try designing my own game.

Q: So you worked up the presentation for the Sonic project all on your own, then.

A: Yeah. I had previously worked in promotions/advertising, so I prepared a variety of different documents to present. I also asked Yuji Naka to prepare a working game sample to show, and I even had our toy guy create some plushies and stationary sample goods. I bombarded them with all that in my presentation: “with this game, Sega can take over the world!” (laughs) I had worked with Naka on the Phantasy Star planning, and we continued to work closely together after that.

Q: Did you already have the idea for a hedgehog character at that point in the planning stage?

A: No, when I first imagined the plans for this game, the character wasn’t yet decided. The idea for Sonic came out in the course of various discussions with Naka.

So there was a contest for a game that could be successful in the United States and perhaps serve as a flagship franchise, while at the same time Sega was looking for a mascot. In The History of Sonic The Hedgehog, Ohshima identifies these as two different drives happening at roughly the same time. Yuji Naka and Naoto Ohshima were already working on a "Mario killer", Ohshima submitted his ideas, as did many other Sega employees, and the Naka-Ohshima project was selected for further development. Yasuhara came on board, and more intense work was done on the character, which by this time Sega hoped could serve as a mascot. This has been jumbled up a lot in Western sources, but this seems to be the narrative that connects interviews given by Naka, Ohshima, and Yasuhara over the years in English and Japanese.

• "Although Sega of America CEO Michael Katz and Sega of America's marketing experts were certain that Sonic would not catch on with American children" - I don't know who these "marketing experts" are supposed to be, but while Katz's reservations are well known, there is no indication of widespread dissatisfaction with the game or the character at Sega of America. SoA did submit some suggestions for modifications to the character's look and backstory so it would work better in the United States, and Naka's team made these changes, albeit reluctantly.

That's a lot to get started on. Once we get through the early genesis (har!) of the character and the game, things should go a lot smoother. I am going to stop here for now to let you take in these first comments. Indrian (talk) 00:16, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Indrian, hi! Would you mind telling me the page numbers of The History of Sonic the Hedgehog that this is covered in? I don't have access to the full book; I only have the portion that covers Sonic Adventure since I worked on that a while ago and got the scans from another user who has since retired. I'll get to addressing the rest ASAP. JOEBRO64 00:41, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

I've done my best to address the inaccuracies without the book, but I think there may still be a few gaps we could fill in. Just let me know what you think. JOEBRO64 01:18, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

TheJoebro64 Looking good so far. I will continue through the article shortly. As for those page numbers, the material I am pulling from is in two parts of the book. The overview of the first game's development runs on pages 20-33. The Oshima interview is on pages 96-101.

Indrian, I've added it. JOEBRO64 00:57, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Comment: just butting in to say that the detailed review so far and Joe's responses have been great. Nice work, guys. Popcornfud (talk) 16:11, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! You've certainly played a big role in getting this article here, btw. JOEBRO64 00:57, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

TheJoebro64, I haven't been doing any sort of structured or methodical copyediting, just jumping in and doing random bits and pieces on the train or whatever. I'll probably continue to fiddle with it but don't let that interrupt the GAN. If it does become distracting or disruptive just let me know and I'll come back later. Popcornfud (talk) 14:29, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Okay, continuing from where I left off.

Development Part 2

• The paragraph on Sonic 3, Sonic and Knuckles, and Spinball is a little bit muddled in its flow. I think my problem with it is that Sonic & Knuckles is mentioned up front when the concept of such a game did not exist from the beginning of development. I would personally do the following structure, though I am open to other ideas as well:

• Cerny leaves, American and Japanese developers are divided into different teams
• The Japanese developers start work on Sonic The Hedgehog 3. They have ambitious plans to use the forthcoming SVP to go with a partially 3D look. A contest is held among STI staff to create a new sidekick. Takashi Yuda's echidna is chosen.
• The developers are forced to abandon the 3D look due to delays with the SVP. The game will also miss holiday 1993. To compensate, the American staff of STI create Sonic Spinball.
• With a McDonalds promotion locked in for February 1994, Sega demands Sonic 3 be done in time to tie into it. Naka decides to split the game in two, with a playable Knuckles pushed off to the second part, Sonic & Knuckles, to be released in Fall 1994.
• With both Sonic games complete, Naka returns to Japan as a producer and forms Sonic Team.

This may mean expanding the one paragraph into two, but I think there is enough material to make it work.

Done. JOEBRO64 00:25, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

• " Sonic Adventure, released in 1998, was one of the largest video games ever created at the time" - I read the original source, and while the immense size of the game world is mentioned several times, I see no claim that it was "one of the largest" games ever. How would that even be measured? By world size, Daggerfall dwarfs it (and practically any other game known to humanity). By playtime, plenty of 100+ hour RPGs already existed at that point. Maybe they mean in terms of a 3D world, but again, the source does not actually make the claim. This should be removed.
  • Replaced. JOEBRO64 00:25, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
• "and introduced elements that became series staples" - Since this article is on the whole series we don't want to get too bogged down on specifics, but a claim like this requires at least a couple examples.
  • Done JOEBRO64 00:25, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
• "Sega released an expanded port of Sonic Adventure 2 for Nintendo's GameCube, chosen for its 56k technology" - In the sourced interview, the 56K modem comes up in regards to Phantasy Star Online, not Sonic Adventure 2. I'm pretty sure Sonic Adventure 2 cannot even be played online.
  • Fixed. JOEBRO64 00:25, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
• I notice that in the "Jump to 3D" section, there is more inclusion of critical reception. I think we should be consistent about this and report this info for every main series Sonic game in the narrative where possible rather than have these elements randomly start to appear partway through the development section.
  • I think I've addressed this. Let me know what you think. JOEBRO64 00:25, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
• Another general thing I see is that I think we are losing Izuka in the article a little. Starting with Sonic Adventure he becomes more and more important in the design of Sonic games, but the article never really indicates that he is the director for practically every mainline Sonic game starting with Adventure. I think we can do a better job of introducing him to the narrative seeing that after the "big three" he is easily the most important creative force on the series.
  • I've included him a lot more, including that he directed the Adventure games and Heroes, how he's in charge of the series now, and some of his commentary. JOEBRO64 00:25, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
• Just spitballing here, but I wonder if the racing, Olympic, and handheld remake games should be confined to their own sections? The article does a pretty good job of explaining the ebb and flow of the mainline Sonic series, but the narrative gets a little muddled when its chugging along pretty well and then we get a paragraph talking about side projects. I am not saying we have to go this route, but I think its worth exploring.
  • I took all the crossovers and dumped them in the Crossovers section. Does that address this? JOEBRO64 00:25, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Story

• This section is mostly fine, but since we have a lot of info on the original lore of the character, not mentioning that he was also supposed to be part of a rock band and have a human girlfriend seem like significant omissions. We should probably cover that facet of the character's backstory.
  • Added it. JOEBRO64 00:26, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Crossovers

• So per my above statements, maybe this is the place to put some of the side games by reworking it into a "Spinoffs and Crossovers" section.
  • See above. JOEBRO64 00:26, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

And that takes us all the way through "Music" (no complaints in that section). This feels like another good place to stop for a time. After you have had time to digest this round, we will move on to "Related Media." Indrian (talk) 23:54, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Indrian, I've replied above. (I'm also assuming you have no comments about the characters and gameplay sections?) JOEBRO64 00:27, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Indrian, I don't mean to bother you, I just wanted to check in. JOEBRO64 15:53, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

It has been a crazy week to put it mildly, but I'll get back to this very soon. Indrian (talk) 07:22, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Indrian, I totally understand. Stay safe, that's more important than anything. JOEBRO64 17:46, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Indrian, just a reminder JOEBRO64 17:48, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Okay, thank you for being exceptionally patient. Let's get this done.

Other Media

I have some specifics broken down by subsection below, but as a general observation this section seems to shift between using past tense and present tense when describing events in these adaptations. For instance, "the Sonic cast teleports from their home planet" in Sonic Underground but "Sonic was a member of a resistance force" in Sonic the Hedgehog. There are a few other examples as well, so I would give the whole section a once over for consistent tense.

I believe I've resolved this. JOEBRO64 20:17, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Animation

• "inspired by Batman: The Animated Series" - Looking at the source, this appears to be speculation by the author. While there are ways that opinion could be worked into the article if you really want to, right now it is being stated as fact, which cannot be claimed from the source.
  • Removed. JOEBRO64 20:17, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Comics

• "A Sonic the Hedgehog manga series was published in Shogakukan's Shogaku Yonensei magazine" - Passive voice.
  • Injected some adrenaline in it to make it more active. JOEBRO64 20:20, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
• "At the time of its cancellation, Archie's Sonic the Hedgehog was the longest-running American comic book to never be relaunched" - This statement is a bit confusing and misleading. The original article is pointing out that of comics active in 2017, it was the longest-running without a relaunch with a new #1. As written, this could be interpreted as the book being the longest running ever since relaunch is undefined, which is certainly not true. Even if this were better defined in the article though, I am not sure I see the significance, as plenty of series ran way longer than Sonic ever did. This says more about the current state of the comic book industry, which loves #1 issues to try to boost collector value, than it says about the enduring popularity of the Sonic comic book itself.
  • I've changed it "... by 2016 it was one of the longest-running American comics in the market." I think this makes more sense. I can remove it entirely if you don't think that's an improvement. JOEBRO64 20:20, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
• "making it the second-highest-grossing film of 2020" - As 2020 is not over yet, this should be qualified with "so far" or "to date" or something. Of course with COVID-19 completely screwing with box office, it may actually keep a relatively high ranking.
  • Done. JOEBRO64 20:20, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Commentary

• "and Sega of America marketing director Al Nilsen" - This should be former Sega of America marketing director, yes?
  • Yes. Done. JOEBRO64 20:21, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
• "although Naka justified the additions as necessary to please fans" - As written, the article indicates this is Naka's justification for the criticism levied by the journalists, Whitehead, and Nilsen, but looking at the sources, Naka made his comments in 2005, while the sourced criticisms were made in 2009 and 2017.
  • I've clarified that Naka's comments came earlier. JOEBRO64 20:21, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Cultural Impact

• "Celebrity fans include horror film director John Carpenter, actress Lacey Chabert (who voiced a character in the 2006 Sonic the Hedgehog), and wrestler and actor Dwayne Johnson." - Its a video game series that has sold hundreds of millions of copies; I am sure a whole host of celebrities have played the games and enjoyed them. I don't see how that has a cultural impact. Its not like food or fashion or whatnot in which a celebrity endorsement spurs increased attention or patronage.
  • Removed. JOEBRO64 20:22, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

And that is finally it for the first go around. I know you have already addressed my first comments from long, long ago. Once you have addressed the rest, I will give the article another read through. I am going to officially put the nomination  On hold, though doing so is almost satirical at this point. Things should honestly move much more quickly now on my end for the remainder of the review. Thanks once again for your patience in these unusual times. Indrian (talk) 19:17, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Indrian, responded above. Thank you for taking the time to review! I didn't mind the wait; I just moved on to some other projects in the meantime. JOEBRO64 20:22, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Indrian, just a reminder JOEBRO64 13:32, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I just needed a block of time to give the whole thing one final read through. Everything looks good, and I will go ahead and promote. Thank you for the hard work and apologies once again for the extended review cycle. Indrian (talk) 07:09, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

No problem! Thank you for your thorough review! JOEBRO64 19:46, 25 June 2020 (UTC)