Talk:Solidary Democracy

Fair Democracy ?!?

Where does this translation come from? The italian word "solidale" is not equivalent to the english "fair". We are not allowed to arbitrarily invent new names here. There are no references. Lets cite the rules WP:UE: If there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject (German for German politicians, Portuguese for Brazilian towns, and so on). ... In deciding whether and how to translate a foreign name into English, follow English-language usage. If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader. When obeying the rules,we have to leave the italian name as it is: "Democrazia Solidale".--Sajoch (talk) 20:29, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Fair is not the exact equivalent of solidale, but it is quite a good translation, in my view (have you ever heard of fair trade translated int commercio solidale in Italian?). Fair Democracy is a translation "without loss of accuracy" and, as you know, I strongly believe that English translations are better for readers' sake. There might be exceptions, but this shouldn't be one. --Checco (talk) 08:18, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

In your view?!? Please read WP:NPOV and WP:NOR.--Sajoch (talk) 08:28, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes in my view. So what? If you disagree, please seek consensus for a different article's name. --Checco (talk) 08:44, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Sajoch, the translation "Fair Democracy" is invented (and it isn't the first time...), therefore I also agree to use the name "Democrazia Solidale" for this page --Maremmano (talk) 21:23, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Checco that the article should have an English language name if possible. Are 'Consensual Democracy' or 'Solidaristic Democracy' adequate alternative translates? I offer them as suggestions, admitting quite openly that my own working knowledge of Italian language and its nuances is very limited.--Autospark (talk) 01:50, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Consensual Democracy is worse than Fair Democracy, Solidaristic Democracy is a little better, but if a party that has an english name and an immediate translation can not have an english title, I see no reason to call with an english name a page about a party that is not mentioned in any English source and that hasn't an immediate translation. Therefore, for me, the best title for this page is the italian name, Democrazia Solidale --Maremmano (talk) 22:12, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

While I still think that "Fair Democracy" is the best translation, also "Solidaristic Democracy" would be OK in my view. I would ask User:Autospark to check other possible translations and especially whether "fair" is a viable one. --Checco (talk) 15:28, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I withdraw Solidaristic Democracy as a suggested name, which I belatedly realise is inelegant and possibly ungrammatical English. I'd like to replace that as a suggestion with Solidary Democracy (solidary being a relatively obscure English word). However, as my ability with Italian is rudimentary, I may be affected here by 'false friends'. I have had United Democracy and Ethical Democracy suggested to me by Italians in conversation, the later is almost similar to Fair Democracy. That may be a viable alternative. What do you think Checco and Maremmano?--Autospark (talk) 19:32, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

United Democracy and Ethical Democracy are bad ideas, instead Solidary Democracy could be a possible translation, but if a translation isn't possible, the title should be the italian name, other italian parties (whose names could be easily translated) have kept the original name (in some cases for very questionable reasons)...--Maremmano (talk) 20:28, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

@User:Autospark: I agree with User:Maremmano that "United Democracy" and "Ethical Democrarcy" are very bad translations, while I support both "Solidary Democracy" and, obviously, "Fair Democracy". What matters to me most is that this article has an English name. There are exceptions to this "rule", but this shouldn't be one. --Checco (talk) 09:18, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

"Solidary Democracy" is quite correct, but I don't understand one thing: for you are exceptions only the parties that are named "Lega" (Lega Autonomia Lombarda, Lega Nuova, etc.)? --Maremmano (talk) 20:40, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

It can happen that an otherwise notable topic has not yet received much attention in the English-speaking world, so that there are too few English sources to constitute an established usage. (...) If this happens, follow the conventions of the language in which this entity is most often talked about (German for German politicians, Turkish for Turkish rivers, Portuguese for Brazilian towns etc.) In this case: Italian for Italian parties. Every translation that is not even verifiable with a single English-language source would be original research. --RJFF (talk) 15:23, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Right, if in the coming days there will not be news, the page will be moved to the italian name --Maremmano (talk) 21:27, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Please seek consensus from other WP editors first.--Autospark (talk) 22:35, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Autospark and please let me add that we are not talking about personal names, rivers or towns here (no-one would invent translations for them!); our case is quite different and has to do with a party, whose name is clearly translatable from Italian to English, as we have done many times before. "Solidary Democracy" goes well with Autospark, Maremmano and I: why not implementing it? --Checco (talk) 13:03, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Because I think, such as other two users, that Democrazia Solidale is the best title, therefore there is the consensus for the Sajoch's proposal --Maremmano (talk) 13:47, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Apparently it is not clearly translatable to English, otherwise you would not have discussed half a dozen of different translations, some of which were proposed by one user but rejected by another. PONS dictionary (which I consider very reliable) translates it as "supportive". --RJFF (talk) 19:03, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Essere solidale con qualcuno would translate into "being supportive with someone", but in this case "supportive" is not OK. Solidale means "fair", "co-operative", "interested in/inspired by solidarity" and "characterized by or involving community of responsibilities and interests" in this context, thus I would keep "fair" or use "solidary", which is "quite corret" also according to Maremmano. --Checco (talk) 14:26, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

The best translation is probably "Solidary Democracy", however in this discussion an agreement has been reached to rename the page with the italian name. Without novelties, in the coming days the page will be moved to "Democrazia Solidale" --Maremmano (talk) 21:49, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

No agreement has been reached on a rename. I would prefer either keeping the existing article name or moving to Solidary Democracy.--Autospark (talk) 00:38, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Autospark: either "Fair Democracy" or "Solidary Democracy" should be this article's name. If "Solidary Democracy" is the "best translation" for Maremmano, let's go with it. --Checco (talk) 12:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

The concurring opinion of 3 users prevails on the opinion of 2 users. Maybe the opinion of Checco & Autospark is hierarchically more important, but I doubt it.--Maremmano (talk) 20:25, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Ok, there is the consensus on Sajoch's proposal, I move the page to the italian name--Maremmano (talk) 16:07, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Three users v. two against the established name of the article is not consensus. --Checco (talk) 11:04, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

"established name"?!? Don't make us laugh: it is pure original research. The rules should be respected. EOD--Sajoch (talk) 11:23, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

In effect. "Established" by you, Checco...--Maremmano (talk) 21:43, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity . . .; nor is it the result of a vote. --Checco (talk) 08:44, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Third senator

@User:Nick.mon, User:Wololoo, all users interested and knowledgeable of Italian politics: Recently, an IP user (User:82.58.206.181) added a senator to the party; is that correct? if yes, who is the third senator? --Checco (talk) 05:48, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Article's name

Time has come, in my view, to move the article to "Solidary Democracy", for consistency with most articles on Italian parties (the only exceptions are Forza Italia and the parties including "Lega" in their name). User:Autospark and I have supported that name for long, User:Nick.mon is consistently using it in his edits, even User:Maremmano wrote that "Solidary Democracy" was the "best translation". I would like to add that the expression "solidary democracy" is meaningful and correct in English—and has been used in some publications (e.g. here and here). Of course, User:Sajoch's and User:RJFF's opinions, and Maremmano's general preference for Italian names still matter, therefore I welcome them, as well as Autospark and Nick.mon, to contribute again to this discussion. --Checco (talk) 13:48, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

As you said I always write "Solidary Democracy" in my edits, so, in my view, we can move the article. -- Nick.mon (talk) 13:59, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Fully support moving the article, as above.--Autospark (talk) 14:00, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

I am not too keen on this move, but I do not object either. --RJFF (talk) 12:20, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

I moved the page. Thank you all for your comments. --Checco (talk) 18:01, 30 January 2018 (UTC)