Talk:Sogdia/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Iazyges (talk · contribs) 22:38, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Suggestions from Iazyges

• Hello again pericles, I am adding these comments here, feel free to add them or reject them, I will be adding more. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:38, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
• "even served as one of the official languages of the early Turkic Khaganate." Maybe "even served as one of the official languages (I'm skeptical that they recognized official languages at such a time, or at least to a modern standard.) along with _____"
• "Their merchants and diplomats traveled as far west as the Byzantine Empire." Because of the way this is laid out, it could be construed as either the sogdian merchants or the imperial chinese merchants.
• "who inherited his late father's empire in 323 BC.[27]" given that the macedonian empire fragmented like a dropped glass, it seems weird to say he inherited the empire.
• "The Greco-Bactrian king Eucratides I apparently recovered sovereignty of Sogdia temporarily." apparently seems a bit weak, perhaps remove it replace it with "may have" if it isn't fully authenticated (as far as ancient things like these can be)
• "that by the 4th century they may have monopolized trade between India and China." Maybe an explanation as to how they could do it, my assumption is that the chinese, by trading through the tarim basin, did not have another route, however to the common reader this could make little sense.
• "the latter had the members of the embassy poisoned to death." Poisoned to death is somewhat redundant, while it does establish that they died beyond doubt, the common reader may find it redundant.
• "It appears, however, that direct trade with the Sogdians remained limited in light of the scanty amount " Scanty may not be the most encyclopedic word to use, perhaps low?
• "Eastern Roman gold coins were used more as ceremonial objects like talismans confirms the pre-eminent importance of Greater Iran in Chinese Silk Road commerce of Central Asia compared to Eastern Rome.[67]" Perhaps a short thing saying that no trade was known to have happened between western rome, or else expand if it had?
• "other Sogdians settled down in China with their families for generations. " maybe remove with their families
• "which split the loyalties of the Sogdians in China, with some following him and others siding with the Tang." maybe remove ",with some following him and others siding with the tang", unless we have a general idea of what percent supported them, it seems redundant.
• "of Dunhuang is evident in a large number of manuscripts written in Chinese characters from left to right instead of vertically, mirroring the direction of how the Sogdian alphabet is read." Nothing wrong with this one, just really interesting.
• "The Islamic Umayyad Caliphate (661–750) initiated the Muslim conquest of Sogdia during the early 8th century. The initial conquest was carried out by Qutayba ibn Muslim (669–716), " Perhaps "Qutayba ibn Muslim, Governor of Greater Khorasan in the Umayyad Caliphate (661-750) initiated the Muslim conquest of Sogdia during the early 8th century."
• "The Sogdian ruler (i.e. ikhshid)' Perhaps the "i.e."

Second wave

• Sorry for the delay, i've been working on clearing the 12 year backlog for roman and byzantine MILHIST.
• "The Sogdians were noted for their tolerance of different religious beliefs but Zoroastrianism was their main religion as shown some examples of material evidence." Perhaps "The sogdians were noted for their tolerance of different religious beliefs, however most of them followed zoroastrianism.
• "At Turfan, Sogdian burials were brought in line with traditional Chinese practices, yet they still retained essential Zoroastrian rituals," brought inline may not be the most encyclopedic words, perhaps were similar to?
• "in addition to their full names, in hopes of protection from harm granted by the Buddha." the "From harm" may be redundant.
• "The Sogdians also practiced the faith of Mani, Manichaeism, a faith that they spread to the Uyghurs. The Uyghur Khaganate (744–840 AD) developed close ties to Tang China once they aided the Tang in suppressing the rebellion of An Lushan and his Göktürk successor Shi Siming, establishing an annual trade relationship of one million bolts" Perhaps specify what a bolt equates to? such as "one million bolts (or ____ ____'s)"
• "The Uyghurs were also followers of Buddhism, so it is perhaps no surprise" so it is perhaps no surprise seems a bit to casual for an encyclopedia, but its your choice, perhap "So it should come as no surprise."
• "Apart from the Puranic cults mentioned above, five Hindu gods were known to have been worshipped in Sogdiana, namely: Brahma, Indra, Mahadeva (Shiva), Narayana, and Vaishravana, who had the Sogdiana names of Zravan, Adabad and Veshparkar respectively." This one is somewhat confusing, it lists 5 indian gods than list 3 sogdian names, the reader (and I) don't understand if 1. They mixed some of the gods together (which would be highly interesting and should definitely be expanded upon, or else 2. the first 3 gods are respective to the 3 sogdian names, which should be stated, or 3. Basically 2 but they are out of order.
• "1%,[116] far lower than the estimate for the contemporary Greco-Roman world." Perhaps state the estimate?
• "Manumission was also permitted when a slave woman gave birth to her master's son, which allowed for her elevation to the legal status of a commoner, yet she could only live as a concubine and not as the wife of her former master.[119]" This may need to be explained further, such as "In order to not be penalized under the tang law for fornication with a slave, if a slave was to give birth, she was generally freed."
• "In Tang poetry Sogdian girls also frequently appear as serving maids in the taverns and inns of the capital Chang'an.[123]" Do we know if it is a fact that they tended to be serving girls (unsure if this is being used as a euphemism), or merely mentioned in tang poetry?
• "A document dated 731 AD reveals that precisely forty bolts" Again how much is a bolt? It would be useful considering that the wikipedia page for it is a stub, not linked, and doesn't itself give a definitive answer.
• "A person from Xizhou, a Tokharistani (i.e. Bactrian), and three Sogdians verified the sale of the girl." Do we know what positions of authority allowed them to verify that? Were they officials, or merely friends and or relatives who informally verified this?
• I find no problems with the citations, given that it takes up roughly 1/3 of the article, I did switch them to 3 columns however for ease of reaching the bottom.
• Thats the end of my comments, feel free to ping me when you have fixed them or rejected them, other than these comments I see nothing stopping this from being GA quality. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:54, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Response by PericlesofAthens

Hi Iazyges! Thanks for carefully critiquing the article. These are really good suggestions! I've already made a dozen edits to the article to reword certain parts per your suggestions. I hope they are to your liking. For instance, I provided a clarification about the role of Sogdian in the Turkic Khaganate, it being a court language used to write documents, so yes, not exactly an "official" language in the modern sense (in modern nation-states). I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the ikhshid part, though. What exactly is wrong here? In either case, great suggestions. Keep them coming! Pericles of Athens^Talk 12:20, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

@PericlesofAthens: sorry, I realize I forgot to finish that one, It was meant to say "Perhaps remove the i.e. and say (or Ikshid) or else (Ikshid in their tongue or language).

Hello once again, Iazyges. I have once more edited the article according to your suggestions. I tried to address the majority of your points, but there are a couple that need to be discussed, particularly the two points about bolts of silk. This was not currency; this was a bartering item. There was no fixed price for silk. It would be impossible and moreover a fluctuating and subjective statement to try to claim that there was a fixed value for a bolt of silk. The value is actually indicated by what was exchanged: in the two instances cited, one million bolts for a hundred-thousand horses, and forty bolts of silk for a single young slave girl. You're honestly not going to get a better understanding than that, and it would be pointless to create an exhaustive list of historical exchanges and items that were worth various different amounts of silk bolts. Aside from that, I believe I've addressed all of your concerns! The article is much better for it, because I didn't even catch the fact that someone had basically plagiarized and copied word for word from Kumar (2007) to write about the Hindu deities. I had to reword that entire paragraph to avoid plagiarizing him and felt compelled to quote him directly in one sentence. In either case, thanks for the review! Cheers. Pericles of Athens^Talk 02:09, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

@PericlesofAthens: I've closed it now. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 02:14, 11 October 2016 (UTC)