Talk:Sir Edward Crosbie, 5th Baronet

Potential copyright violation

ManfredHugh, it looks like the text you added in this edit is a copyright violation. If you think I'm wrong about that, could you explain? Cordless Larry (talk) 13:31, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Cordless Larry I may be able to do something to rectify this, but it will involve me reading my source 10 in full (Turtle Bunbury. Writer and Historian The Trial and Execution of Sir Edward Crosbie) but I suspect everything can be covered by this source. Would this help, if I read it to check? I'm onto something else right now, but I could do this later if you wish. In any event it is all covered in my source 9 (if I recall correctly!), but no more of that can be used, right? Anne (talk) 14:02, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

The problem isn't the availability of a source, Arbil44, but rather that the content of a copyright source appears to have been copied into the article word-for-word. See the comparison here. That source can be used; it just can't be copied. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:12, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Well, it looked to me as though everything had to be deleted, when I looked at your link Cordless Larry. If ManfredHugh would join this discussion, it would help, rather than only partially restoring my day's work. Anne (talk) 14:51, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

I was simply suggesting that the offending copied source be abandoned altogether, and the same information sourced elsewhere. Wouldn't that resolve the matter? Anne (talk) 14:16, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that would be one way, but it's not necessary to use a different source to resolve the copyright issue - that just requires the offending text to be removed. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:44, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Regarding the missing infobox - Google brings up the following and credits wikipedia. Click on that and it brings up this article, which has no infobox. This is the information I've just seen: Sir Edward Crosbie, 5th Baronet was a Protestant gentleman executed in Carlow, Ireland, for alleged complicity in the United Irish Rebellion in May 1798. Wikipedia Born: 1755, Wicklow, Ireland Died: 5 June 1798, Carlow, Ireland Partner: Castiliana Westenra (1790–) Children: Sir William Edward Crosbie, 6th Bt., Hester Dorothea Crosbie Parents: Mary Daniel, Sir Paul Crosbie, 4th Bt. Siblings: Richard Crosbie Great-grandparents: Dorothea Annesley, Charles Howard, Maurice Crosbie Anne (talk) 14:33, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Here's the standard OTRS response text for queries about Google's Knowledge Graph:

Wikipedia has no control over what appears on Google or other search engines, including what pictures and information occur in the summary at the right of the search results, so you will need to contact Google directly if you have an issue with content that appears on Google.

The box on the right side on Google searches is generated by Google's Knowledge Graph. This uses a wide variety of sources, so while there may be a section labeled as "Wikipedia", images or other text before or after the Wikipedia excerpt may be from sources completely unrelated to Wikipedia. We have no control over how Google presents our information, but Google's Knowledge Graph has a "Feedback" link where anyone can mark a field as wrong. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:48, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Cordless Larry, ManfredHugh has just deleted everything I have done today, rather than addressing the issues you have raised. My edits were not the subject of your concerns, it would seem. Please will you revert? Anne (talk) 14:37, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Cordless Larry, ManfredHugh has partially restored what I have spent the day doing. Please could you restore it all. I went to a lot of time and trouble.Anne (talk) 14:45, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

ManfredHugh, the offending text is in the section Sir Edward Crosbie, 5th Baronet#Trial and execution. Your attempt to resolve the issue removed other parts of the article, but not that. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:52, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Cordless Larry, ManfredHugh is not taking part in this conversation; however, I have offered to re-do Sir Edward Crosbie, 5th Baronet#Trial and execution. Would that not be the simplest solution? I am slow when working here, but given some time I am reasonably confident I could do this. Is this not acceptable? Anne (talk) 15:09, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

I will delete the offending text now and if you could have a go at re-writing something to replace it, that would be much appreciated. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:11, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Cordless Larry, I need to know what I am replicating, and it vanished before I could copy it! Please check my Sandbox, where I hope I have salvaged it from your edit. Please confirm. I do not want to work on this if I don't know I'm basing it correctly and not missing something! Anne (talk) 15:21, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Sorry folks, I didn't have this article on my watchlist. Unfortunately now that so much of what had been in the article has been blocked, I cannot see what the actual copyright issue might have been.ManfredHugh (talk)

Arbil44 and ManfredHugh: the text was paragraphs 2, 3 and 4 from this source. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:22, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Arbil44, please note that I've removed the text from your sandbox. If it's a copyright violation here, it's a copyright violation there too. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:32, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Cordless Larry unfortunately you have also removed my revised edit, which I had just completed before your total deletion. I was only needing the copyrighted material there briefly while I reconstructed it. Unless I can have your revert reverted, just briefly, while I finish what I was doing, I'm afraid I shall have to walk away. I tried to save my work, but there was an edit clash. I was deleting the copyright material as I went along. I cannot reconstruct without the fabric of what I am reconstructing in front of me. Nor can I recreate from the now blank page. Anne (talk) 16:56, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

As I note above, the text is the second, third and fourth paragraphs of this. Wikipedia shouldn't be hosting copyright violations even temporarily. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:59, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

I created a new section, which I was about to suggest you look at, but you have deleted my work. I haven't got the heart to start again from scratch. It wasn't nearly as easy to use Bunbury as I had hoped. I only needed a short time, and I did it, but now my edit has gone up in smoke. Anne (talk) 17:08, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

I will e-mail it to you, Arbil44. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:09, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

You emailed me the copyright material. As I mentioned, I had created a new section, but was unable to save it because of a clash with your removal. I cannot start from scratch all over again. I was only trying to help. Anne (talk) 17:23, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Anne. I would retrieve that text if I could but I don't think that's possible. Thanks for your efforts to rectify the situation. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:32, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Cordless Larry My completed draft is in my Sandbox. I do not want to place it on the main page without permission to do so - sorry - too many problems over this already. I have paraphrased everything I have included from the copyright source. Those references are already formatted, but the others are not. Quotation marks make it clear what has been C&Pd. If you ever have a moment to format the other references, it would be better, because there is a great need for 'a' - 'b' - 'c' to be incorporated throughout the article, and that is entirely beyond me. I have also given source material which could be used to create an Infobox (which is also in my Sandbox). I will leave that to someone else too (also beyond me). Alternatively it could be used to create a "Family" section, but it is entirely copied from source. Anne (talk) 00:14, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

The new "Trial and execution" section looks good to me from a copyright point of view, Anne. From a stylistic point of view, the quotes could do with in-text attribution (e.g. "Author X states that..."). If you add the text, I can fix any issues with the references. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:25, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

OK, will do. Anne (talk) 08:29, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Please will Cordless Larry sort out the references throughout the article (I have replaced the unacceptable source at the beginning of the article, so that needs formatting too), and, hopefully, create an infobox? Please would Nthep say whether this image [1] may be used for Crosbie's page? I will now move the new edit over to the article, which will hopefully no longer be a Stub? Anne (talk) 09:05, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Apparently that image is not of Crosbie. Who knew!Anne (talk) 00:40, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the references, Cordless Larry. Can "This article has multiple issues" go now? And surely it is no longer a Stub is it? Maybe someone will do an infobox? And maybe Nthep will allow the image? Anne (talk) 11:20, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

I've now added a basic infobox that can be further filled out. The tone could still use some work in places (e.g. "Loyal to his king and country" - according to whom?). Cordless Larry (talk) 14:21, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Addressing firstly your "citations needed". Every one of them is covered by Turtle Bunbury, but I do not know how to include that reference, especially since you have formatted that source already. I have tried to complete the infobox to the best of my ability. I am sorry that not only have I made a mistake, but his allegiance to Britain is very important (I wanted to add the flag) but that did not copy and paste for me. Turtle Bunbury covers everything in the Infobox btw. As for "Loyal to king and country" - that is the entire tenor of the document put together by J.J. Woods - the entire point of their outrage that he was murdered as a traitor. If you insist, I will try to find the exact same words in Woods' piece. Precise locations of birth were not often recorded back then because babies were born at home. Bunbury states that he was "raised at Corby Park", his ancestral home.Anne (talk) 14:53, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

<ref name=Bunbury/> will add a reference to Bunbury. As for "Loyal to king and country" being from Woods, that's fine but it should be attributed to Woods in the text rather than stated as fact. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:03, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Right now I am devastated that MarnetteD has undone my day's work - doing my level best to get the Infobox sorted out. WPians really should not arbitrarily delete without establishing if the edditor tried their level best and only made one mistake. Please will you revert her edit and correct my one mistake. And, Please, make sure Crosbie's LOYALTY is displayed by the British flag? I cannot fulfill everyone's requirements of me. If I've done something wrong it was only because my BEST was not good enough. Anne (talk) 15:12, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

So you like leaving the infobox a total mess? You could try asking for help at the WP:HELPDESK. Also see WP:INFOBOXFLAG. MarnetteD|Talk 15:31, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

I did not know how to correct the mistake and thought someone might be kind enough to correct my mistake here (| birth_place = Ancestral home, Crosby Park, Ireland). I cannot see what is wrong with it. Cordless Larry knows how hard I have been working to upgrade this article over the past three days. He also UNDERSTANDS that my IT skills are absolute rubbish, which causes me enormous stress once into an edit page. I've had to correct a page which was marked as full or errors. I've had to spend days of my time doing this and all I have experienced is deletion after deletion. All you needed to do was to correct my one error, rather than delete what took this total idiot hours to achieve. Anne (talk) 15:37, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

I keep having to correct your errors. Try paying attention to the edit summaries. There are fields that do not exist in this infobox. Among those are "residence", "religion" and "allegiance". If you try looking at the page after you hit save you would notice that. Please stop adding them to the page. MarnetteD|Talk 18:15, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Cordless Larry I C&Ped from the Charles Asgill page. I put it all in a Word document and changed the information accordingly. I.e. there is a flag on the CA page, but this article would not accept it. I will now leave all this in your and MarnetteD's capable hands, because I cannot take any more of this never-ending-criticism/deletions. I have spent days on all this and the only person to thank me for all I HAVE done here was ManfredHugh, (and one from you earlier on thread). Thanks go such a long way. Constant barbs finishes it for me, along with the 69 emails in the psst 24 hours.Anne (talk) 18:33, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Cordless Larry - "| residence = Viewmount, Carlow, Ireland (1792–1798)", "| religion = Protestant" (very important in this case) and allegiance "Britain" fields have been deactivated - please will you format them so that they show? These are important factors throughout Crosbie's story. All are very significant and his loyalty wrongfully cast into doubt to the point of execution. Anne (talk) 15:49, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

I will take a look when I get time. Just to note that the Bunbury source doesn't seem to support the claim that Edward Crosbie was born in 1755 (it does say his brother Richard was, however). Cordless Larry (talk) 16:34, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Cordless LarryIn the middle of s Zoom call, but so much is being expected of me, let me answer this one: "The young man had been raised at Crosby Park before going on to Trinity College, Dublin, aged 15, as a fellow commoner in 1770". This requires a calculator. Answer: 1755. Anne (talk) 17:46, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I see. But presumably he might have been born in 1774 and have gone to Trinity before his 16th birthday in 1770? Cordless Larry (talk) 17:59, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Cordless Larry That is why I put c.1755, but that was deleted. Anne (talk) 18:12, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Sorry Anne, but when I said that opinions from Woods need to be attributed to Woods, this isn't what I meant. You've simply added your own interpretation of the source, which is editorialising and doesn't belong on Wikipedia. We can only report what sources say, not our interpretations of them. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:44, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Cordless Larry. Done. I hope the Reverend's letter will suffice.Anne (talk) 18:06, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately not as you've phrased it. "Crosbie's loyalty to king and country was demonstrated in an extract from a letter" - demonstrated appears to be your interpretation of the letter, which doesn't belong in the article. If there's a source that says that the letter demonstrates this, that can be cited, but you can't include your own interpretation of primary sources. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:11, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

I will look at all this later. I have a Zoom meeting to attend now. Besides, I am very badly shaken by the constant and repeated deletion of my work. I am being constantly undermined by this when my confidence on an edit page never goes above rock bottom. Two episodes yesterday and then again today. I've never been in an Infobox ever before. Personally I think it was brilliant that I only made one mistake. That did not deserve the whole damn lot to be wiped out. It had all taken me hours of C&Ping from CA and trying to do it all off line.Anne (talk) 16:55, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

I understand your frustration, Anne, but please do remember that your work can all be retrieved from the page history, so it's not wasted even if it is reverted. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:06, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Cordless Larry I hope I have covered your queries and that no more will be expected of me. I only came here because of the appalling and attrocious misjustice dished out to Crosbie, but now it seems to be only me, and me alone, who can rectify anything at all. Even my one IT error cannot be nicely rectified without simply deleting everything, which took me so long to achieve.Anne (talk) 18:06, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Extinct Baronetcies of Nova Scotia (Ireland)

Please would CrumbleCrumble explain why the link to Extinct Baronetcies has been removed? This website states that it became extinct in 1936 [2]. If CrumbleCrumble is not a user, how do I alert them to this Cordless Larry? Anne (talk) 16:35, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Anne I removed the link because the category contains the pages for the titles themselves rather than the people who held them. Thus, since Crosbie baronets is contained within that category, it would be redundant to include the individual baronets of the title. CrumbleCrumble (talk) 16:39, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Oh, OK. Anne (talk) 16:46, 12 December 2021 (UTC)