Talk:Siege of Leningrad/Archive 3

This is an archive of past discussions about Siege of Leningrad. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Image

Would you mind to change the image in the infobox? It is sort of ridiculous to use the mediocre post-war propaganda painting while we have plenty of authentic pictures. Colchicum (talk) 17:32, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Point noted. Will investigate who put it in and whether they have a view. But it is always better to have good contemporary images rather than after-the-event propaganda posters.

So where are the plenty of authentic pictures? JHB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.109.19.89 (talk) 09:23, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Uh, just not the one with distrophia... While Wikipedia is not censored, shocking content should still be limited... I think. --Illythr (talk) 22:11, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Why, when it portrays with appropriate poignancy by far the greatest element of the human suffering, and the greatest infamous significance, of the Siege of Leningrad? Those who would close their eyes to this are deluding themselves. --JHB (talk) 08:29, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Contradictions

I have had to remove "The shelling of Leningrad began on September 4" (1941), from "Encirclement of Leningrad", because in other places it states that it began in August. Which is correct? - I imagine August (maybe by the Finns?). I don't mind which is correct - but we can't leave both in and contradict ourselves. JHB

Other contradictions are surfacing as well. Watch this space. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.109.19.89 (talk) 09:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Image:Hitler Mannerheim Ryti bright.jpg

I have come to the conclusion that Wikipedia are mad. --JHB (talk) 08:27, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Why? The reason is that an almost identical image exists on Commons and can be taken from there. --Illythr (talk) 22:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The earlier image suffers from the same malady that most Wiki monochrome images have, which is that their poor exposure rating prevents the reader from depicting any real or useful definition. Hence the newer derivative (with the obvious suffix "bright") which is far better photographically and gives the reader a picture worth looking at. The madness is the inability to realise this and the propensity to reject something on technical grounds without contemplating the motive or raising the issue.

--JHB (talk) 08:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

KEEP the good historic document.130.166.34.165 (talk) 23:40, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Legacy

There should be a section on the aftermath and cultural memory of the siege. In the English-speaking countries, Harrison Salisbury's 900 Days was somewhat popularly influential (though it was apparently banned in the Soviet Union). AnonMoos (talk) 19:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC) Agree. There should be a section on the aftermath and cultural memory of the siege. Especially important is the list of notable survivors of the siege, among those who survived the siege of Leningrad were Nobel Prize Laureats (Brodsky and Kantorovich), leading chess playars (Botvinnik, Taimanov, Korchnoy), film stars (Cherkasov, Borisov, Babochkin, Samoylova), renown writers (Akhmatova, Strugatsky brothers), musicians (Shostakovich, Mravinsky) and many other important figures who are represented in Wikipedia and are connected to the siege as part of their biography.

Controversy over Finnish participation

Many Finnish historians are beginning to recognise that the Finnish army under Mannerheim effectively participated in the siege of Leningrad as part of the German-led operation Barbarossa.^[1] Such scholars as american historian Richard H. Bidlack, Ph.D, see his article "Leningrad, Siege of" in the World Book Encyclopedia, Chicago, 2002, vol.12, page 195, and the Russian historian Nikolai Baryshnikov describe active Finnish participation, as well as numerous operational military maps of the siege made by the Finnish and the Nazi armies during the years 1941 - 1944. The Finnish armies crossed the pre-winter war border at the Karelian Isthmus and over the Svir River, thus causing Winston Churchill to write directly to Mannerheim and then to declare the war on Finland in December of 1941.130.166.34.165 (talk) 23:40, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

The forementioned Baryshnikov specially makes it clear that almost all Finnish, Russian (Soviet) and Western historians don't consider Finland actively participating to the siege. The text in the article has source given from that book of Baryshnikov. --Whiskey (talk) 07:12, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Nobody wants Wikipedia contradicting with facts from Encyclopedia Britannica: "...prolonged siege of the city of Leningrad by German and Finnish armed forces during WWII." [1]

What controversy - The Finnish army was part of "...prolonged siege of the city of Leningrad by German and Finnish armed forces during WWII." [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.34.80.73 (talk) 01:31, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

It is totally different when you compare space limited Britannica article and books written by historians about the issue. Take Glantz, Salisbury, Platonov, Clark, Wykes, etc. there is only few pages about Finns. Finns were a sidenote in a story, mainly because they stayed put in their old border (which was only streightened by eliminating two salients), so Finns were not considered active participant in the siege. Even Britannica concludes:"...The ensuing German blockade and siege claimed 650,000 Leningrader lives in 1942 alone, mostly from starvation, exposure, disease, and shelling from distant German artillery." The controversy is already inside the Britannica article. --Whiskey (talk) 06:57, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Discussing Finnish participation

Finnish army under Mannerheim effectively participated in the siege of Leningrad as part of the German-led operation Barbarossa.^[1] Such scholars as american historian Richard H. Bidlack, Ph.D, see his article "Leningrad, Siege of" in the World Book Encyclopedia, Chicago, 2002, vol.12, page 195, and the Russian historian Nikolai Baryshnikov describe active Finnish participation, as well as numerous operational military maps of the siege made by the Finnish and the Nazi armies during the years 1941 - 1944. The Finnish armies crossed the pre-winter war border and invaded Russia at the Karelian Isthmus and over the Svir River, thus causing Britain and Canada to declare the war on Finland in December of 1941.

Encyclopedia Britannica explicitly states that Germany and Finland together kept Leningrad under siege for 872 days, from September 1941 to January 1944. [3]

West Point Military Academy edition "History of WW2" (New York, 2002) explicitly describes the Finnish armies uinder Mannerheim as participants in the Siege of Leningrad, with maps and military operational commentary. This is a United States government source, so it is in public domain and free for use in Wikipedia; just read it and use it.130.166.34.165 (talk) 05:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

"Vandalism by user Whiskey"

Aha! Finnish Nazis strike again! ;-) So, um, what's going on here? Anon's edits seem to be legit, except for failing to provide page numbers, but we have the {{page needed}} template for that... --Illythr (talk) 00:37, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It is the same old editor again, adding the same things again and discussing the modifications in talk page as little as before, again. You can read our previous round if you check talk page above.

This time, he tried to provide some sources, but unfortunately I haven't had time to weed good edits from the bad, so I threw those all away at the same time. I'll be more careful if I have more time... --Whiskey (talk) 06:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

On a closer look, most of the additions seem excessive. I re-added some, but the Glantz book does need those page numbers. --Illythr (talk) 19:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It all began when Steve started adding new material to the article, and the size started to grow. At the same time was noted, that the military side of the siege was presented very poorly, so I took the drastic step and splitted the article to the military (this article) and civilian (Effect of the Siege of Leningrad on the city) parts. Originally there was a small chapter in this article which summarized the civilian part, but User:JHB (at July 20, 2008) edited it out. --Whiskey (talk) 08:54, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Acts of denial and vandalism by User:Whiskey

1. The article clearly presents facts of Finnish armies participation in the siege of Leningrad, please see: Finnish order of battle

Finnish army HQ (Marshal of Finland Mannerheim) ref : Harvnb|National Defence College|1994|pp=2:194,256
- I Corps (2 infantry divisions)
- II Corps (2 inf divisions)
- IV Corps (3 inf divisions)

2. Several academic encyclopedias, such as Encyclopedia Britannica[4] and the World Book Encyclopedia, Chicago, 2002, vol.12, page 195, explicitly describe the "Siege of Leningrad by German and Finnish armies"

Yet the User:Whiskey insists on "controversy over the Finnish participation" just to validate repetitive acts of vandalism. Such acts of denial and vandalism by User:Whiskey are making it hard to help Wikipedia.130.166.34.165 (talk) 04:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

See the discussion at the top of this page. Also, the controversy is explicitly stated in Baryshnikov's book. The general consensus among Finnish, Russian (Soviet) and Western historians that Finns didn't participate actively to the siege was the raison d'être of his book.--Whiskey (talk) 06:55, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

There is no such concensus, please read "Siege of Leningrad. Encyclopedia Britannica." [5], or other serious encyclopedias, such as the World Book Encyclopedia, Chicago, 2002, vol.12, page 195, explicitly describing the "Siege of Leningrad by German and Finnish armies."

Anon, while the sources you provided look good, we need actual page numbers to be able to verify the information they are used to support (I couldn't find the numbers in Google Print). The timeline should probably be converted into prose before further expansion. As active Finnish participation in the siege appears to be minimal, some details like Hitler visiting Mannerheim look out of place in the article.

Also, accusing a veteran editor who had been instrumental at thwarting a very persistent Finnish nationalist's dogged POV-pushing of vandalism and denial is remarkably unhelpful, first of all, to your own position. Please don't. --Illythr (talk) 19:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Hitler visited Mannerheim and president Ryti in eastern Finland during the second year of the Siege of Leningrad. With Hitler came several German generals, politicians and other important Nazi leaders. The Finnish leadership was represented by president Ryti and Mannerheim, and their staff. This was the German-Finnish summit at the HQ of the Finnish army in Immola, just 200 km north of the besieged Leningrad. Of the entire day-long summit only a 20-minute fragment with a recording of Hitler's voice is now available. Several hours of talks were top secret, however, the main reason for Hitler's visit to the area was co-operation with the Finnish army and Finnish government of president Ryti at the time when Leningrad's resistance led to failure of plan Barbarossa.

It would help your point if you could get your facts right. It would help if you could name those generals and politicians who came with Hitler. Also, Immola was not HQ, and it was NW from Leningrad, inside Finnish modern borders. Hitler was at Finnish soil only 6 hours and few minutes, as the plane arrived after midday and left already at 18:30. The main reason was Mannerheim's 75 birthday and the visit was used politically and propagandistic. Otherwise it is not useful to promote conspiracy theories without any referencies. --Whiskey (talk) 09:30, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Hitler's visits

Hitler visited Mannerheim and president Ryti in eastern Finland during the second year of the Siege of Leningrad. With Hitler came several German generals and politicians : a large group of important Nazi leaders. The Finnish leadership was represented by president Ryti and Mannerheim, and their staff. This was the German-Finnish summit at the HQ of the Finnish army in Immola, just 200 km north of the besieged Leningrad. Of the entire day-long summit only a 20-minute fragment with a recording of Hitler's voice is now available. Several hours of talks were top secret, however, the main reason for Hitler's visit to the area was co-operation with the Finnish army and Finnish government of president Ryti at the time when Leningrad's resistance led to complete failure of plan Barbarossa.

Many authors : Clark, Glanz, Bidlack, Carell, Salisbury, and others dedicated solid research to and published books about the 900 days of the Siege of Leningrad. Historians, such as Richard H. Bidlack, Ph.D, see his article "Leningrad, Siege of" in the World Book Encyclopedia, Chicago, 2002, vol.12, page 195, conclude that failure to take Leningrad in three years of the siege was a major political and military blow to Hitler and his allies. The resistance of Leningrad lasted about 900 days (of which the siege itself was 872 days long).

Attempts to reduce information about the 900-day battle of Leningrad and reduce the article in size and illustrations, attempts to delete names of survivors, many of whom are important figures known to the world, such attempts are sad and destructive to Wikipedia.

Sadly, some users who do not read sources, make up false reasons to engage in destruction towards any efforts to help Wikipedia.130.166.34.165 (talk) 02:01, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

See above. --Whiskey (talk) 09:33, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Dubious

I consider following statements dubious, and their correctness should be verified.

German Plans

Both German and Finnish forces had the goal of encircling Leningrad and maintaining the blockade perimeter, thus cutting off all communication with the city.

This is dubious, as in the previous paragraph there is already mentioned how von Leeb intended to capture the city on the move, and in the previous chapters where all German plans called the capture of the city, not blockade. Also the orders under which von Leeb operated, called to the capture of the city, not blockade or siege.

Then Hitler changed his own original order from "Once Leningrad had been razed — the land should be turned over to the Finns." to a new order in November 8th Hitler's speech in Munich: "Leningrad must die of starvation."

Severing lines of communication

After Britain and Canada declared war on Finland, Winston Churchill demanded that Mannerheim and the Finnish armies restore the Murmansk–Leningrad railroad for humanitarian reasons, to allow food supplies to reach Leningrad's civilian population.

This is dubious, as there is no mention about this kind of letter or other message in the memoirs of Mannerheim. Also, in the book Churchill and Finland (Routledge 2005) by Markku Ruotsila, where he goes through Churchill's relations to Finland: letters, speeches, cabinet meetings, diaries, negotiations with Stalin and Roosevelt etc. Also there there is no mention about such letter or message. --Whiskey (talk) 08:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

What is this nonsense all about? Does our Anon friend think that the railroad runs through the Karelian Isthmus? Well, that's wrong. It runs south of Lake Ladoga, through German positions. I presume that Churchill was aware of this. Also could somebody remove this nonsense from Arctic convoys of World War II#Strategic impact: Leningrad under the siege was one of important destinations for supplies from the convoys. American and British food and munition supplies helped civilians struggling to survive in the Siege of Leningrad.[citation needed] From 1941 food and munition supplies were delivered from British convoys to Leningrad by trains, barges, and trucks. Colchicum (talk) 10:56, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Aye, [6]. Colchicum (talk) 10:58, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, the given source for this simple sentence is five pages long, so I'd really like to know what is really written in that source, especially as our Anon friend continues to add claim about 9000 burned houses which is not supported by his given source. --Whiskey (talk) 08:44, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, these historic facts are described over five pages, see below

Pages 98 - 101. Finnish forces crossed the line of Finland's 1939 border, and occupied Russian territories (east of Leningrad). ((This sentence is repeated several time in the book "Finland in the Second World War. Between Germany and Russia." By Olli Vehvvilainen. English translation by Gerard McAlister. Palgrave, 2002.))

Page 100. Churchill appealed to Mannerheim in a personal letter: Surely your troops advanced far enough for security during the war and could now halt and give leave. (Note: Finns did not leave, but blocked the norhtern railroad and crossed the Svir River trying to connect with Germans to form the larger "second circle" around Leningrad. At the same time Finland expelled all British diplomats from Helsinki)

Page 100. On 6 December, Great Britain declared war on Finland. This was followed by declaration of war from Canada, Australia, India and New Zealand.

Page 104. Hitler proposed a Finnish border which would run from the White Sea to the Svir River and the Neva River.

Some sort of administrative intervention might be in order. BTW, this source attributes the number of "3174 buildings destroyed and 7143 damaged by German fire." to Soviet sources (seems to be a fairly consistent number). On the Churchill letters, here's a topic about that...

BTW2: As a kind of an echo of another one of our anonymous acquaintances, it is interesting to note that the source provided for the figure of 9000 burned houses specifically states the following: Emergency measures taken by [Soviet] authorities against this disastrous state included ... dismantling 9.000 wooden houses for fuel --Illythr (talk) 02:13, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, as this has been bordering on disinformation for a long time now, I agree that administrative intervention is in order. Colchicum (talk) 11:02, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

The railroad from Murmansk to Leningrad was blocked by the Finns in two places : one near Petrozavodsk, and one near Svir River, where the Finns took the strategic bridge over Svir leading to Leningrad. At that time the United States started delivering thousands of Studebecker trucks to help restore supplies to Leningrad by alternative roads. Then alternative railroad was built around Lake Onega where neither Finns, nor Germans could not reach due to strong resistance. Since the Finns ignored Churchill's warning in December 1941, the war on Finland was declared by Britain, Canada, India, New Zealand and the rest of the Commonwealth. Because the area of Murmansk and Kola was attacked more frequently, the better protected seaport of Archangelsk took a share of Anglo-American food supplies for delivery to besieged Leningrad and its defenders.

(Must.Resist.Degrading.Personal.Comments...Yes.) The Murmansk railroad, or Kirov railroad, or Volkhov-Murmansk railroad was held by Finns between Podporožje and Maselskaja stations, over 300 km in length. No lend-lease trucks were delivered during 1941. First Studebeckers (3,800) were delivered at 1942. The Belomorsk-Obozersk railroad construction began already before the war and was already operational at Autumn 1941. At Obozersk it connected to existing Archangelsk railroad, which was much older than Murmansk railroad. Archangelsk was also preferred to Murmansk as it was over 1,000km closer to Moscow than Murmansk, which meant much in rail transit times. Could you please bother to check your information? --Whiskey (talk) 10:43, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Reducing article length

Attempts to reduce information about the 900-day battle of Leningrad and reduce the article in size and illustrations, attempts to delete names of survivors, many of whom are important figures known to the world, such attempts are sad and destructive to Wikipedia.

Sadly, some users who do not read sources, make up false reasons to engage in destruction towards any efforts to help Wikipedia.130.166.34.165 (talk) 02:01, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

So, in your opinion it is better to have one giant article which no-one bothers to read due it's size than several smaller ones which concentrates to the specific aspects of the siege so that those who have only little time could find that information? I consider encouraging readership a better way to present this. And using separate articles makes it even easier to add even more information to the articles. --Whiskey (talk) 08:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes. The article becomes better, more complete and coherent with additional facts, links and sources. Enlargement by 10-20% is helpful.

First, the change you are proposing is already enlarging the article by 30%. Second, the article still misses large parts of the military stuff. --Whiskey (talk) 09:34, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Better article with these sources

From the book "Finland in the Second World War. Between Germany and Russia." By Olli Vehvilainen. English translation by Gerard McAlister. Palgrave, 2002. (the book should be available in most libraries and universities)

Page 89. One day before the Operation Barbarossa began, president Ryti stated to a parlimentary delegation... "If a war now breaks between Germany and Russia it could be to the advantage of the whole world."

Pages 98 - 101. Finnish forces crossed the line of Finland's 1939 border, and occupied Russian territories (east of Leningrad).

Page 100. Churchill appealed to Mannerheim in a personal letter: Surely your troops advanced far enough for security during the war and could now halt and give leave. (Note: Finns did not leave, but blocked the norhtern railroad and crossed the Svir River trying to connect with Germans to form the larger "second circle" around Leningrad. At the same time Finland expelled all British diplomats from Helsinki)

Page 100. On 6 December, Great Britain declared war on Finland. This was followed by declaration of war from Canada, Australia, India and New Zealand.

Page 104. Hitler proposed a Finnish border which would run from the White Sea to the Svir River and the Neva River.

Page 104. ..plans drawn up in the Finnish Headquarters in summer 1941, it was the task of the occupation authorities of eastern Karelia to prepare the region for permanent integration with Finland.

Page 105. Russian place names were replaced with Finnish ones. The population was segregated into 'nationals' and 'non-nationals'... and the latter were to be deported

Page 107. ... the fate of prisoners of war was even more horrible. In 1941 over 65,000 soviet soldiers had been taken prisoner by the Finns. ... during the first winter, over 10,000 prisoners died of hunger and disease in the overcrouded camps. all in all, over 18,700 men died ... while in captivity in Finland.

Page 108. As hopes of a German victory evaporated, so also public references to a "greater Finland" wained.... in June 1944, ..a massive offensive by the Red Army forced the Finns to withdraw from the area (Eastern Karelia, north-east of Leningrad). Then the dream of a Greater Finland was finally buried.

Page 109. For two-and-a-half years the Finnish Army occupied the positions it had captured in autumn 1941 in Eastern Karelia and north of Leningrad.

Please be diligent! Please be wise! Grow to the task. Do not rush to argument without reading the books from the list of sources diligently page by page.

Nobody wants Wikipedia contradicting with facts from Encyclopedia Britannica: "...prolonged siege of the city of Leningrad by German and Finnish armed forces during WWII." [7], or with the World Book article by Richard H. Bidlack, Ph.D, see his article "Leningrad, Siege of" in the World Book Encyclopedia, Chicago, 2002, vol.12, page 195. 130.166.34.165 (talk) 02:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

PS: For the citizens of Leningrad winning the battle against the Germans and Finns wasn't as quick, clean and beautiful as winning the Super Bowl for Pittsburg Steelers, but hoy! all students here are stuck to the giant TV. Only a few of us are studying, reading books, educating ourselves and trying to help others by sharing the facts and sources.

Like I have said before: If what you propose is made to a yardstick what information should be added to this article, then I have right now a dozen articles with the same size as current article to be added here and then two scores smaller ones. To put it simply: It is not possible to provide article with your specifications which will be read by anybody, thus rendering the whole effort useless.

This is an article about the Siege of Leningrad, not about the Continuation War! --Whiskey (talk) 09:29, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Note that there is an article called Military history of Finland during World War II. Most of the above might me a good addition there, but it's out of place here (too general). Only points 2 and 4 are relevant, but they are already there. --Illythr (talk) 18:53, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

St. Petersburg, Russia

Hi there,

I was in St. Petersburg last summer. The place is so beautiful, breathtaking. I saw several former Royal palaces in the suburbs now restored in full splendor and open to public. However, some historic palaces and other structures are still in ruins due to massive destruction in WW2. Apparently the 900-days long siege was so devastating that the damage cannot be undone.

The intro for this article could be worded with more clarity. I like the intro from Encyclopedia Britannica better : "...prolonged siege of the city of Leningrad by German and Finnish armed forces during WWII." [8]

We also have books about the siege of Leningrad here at the Pepperdine University. Apparently the Finnish armies occupied the suburbs north of Leningrad. The WW2 Atlas by the West Point Military Academy shows that the Finns were fighting against the 23rd Army at the northern outskirts of Leningrad. The Finns also occupied the Karelian territories east of the Lake Ladoga and thus severed the Leningrad-Murmansk railroad, which fact is reflected in the book "Finland in the Second World War. Between Germany and Russia." By Olli Vehvvilainen. Palgrave, 2002. The book is available at our university, and I checked the pages mentioned above to see if the information provided is correct. In fact all of the discussed quotations from pages 89, 98, 99, 100, 101, 104, 105, 107, 108, 109 are accurate.

The foregoing is true and correct, and quotations are verifiable through the mentioned sources. In fact the Finnish order of battle involved I Corps (2 infantry divisions), II Corps (2 inf divisions) and IV Corps (3 inf divisions). Thus the passage about "Controversy over Finnish participation" has no real bearing at all and needs to be deleted.

Additional notes must have the list of notable survivors. Those are some very important names indeed. 137.159.37.226 (talk) 02:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

BTW comparing the siege of Leningrad to a Super Bowl is a lowballer, although I am a Pittsburg fan.

Of course the Siege of Leningrad was way bigger as an event, no offense though, cus I'm a Pittsburg fan too. My biggest moment was when Santonio Holmes made his owesome 6-yard catch in the right corner, even president Obama called Coach Tomlin with congrats! Watch the Super Bowl Champion parade tomorrow! Anyway, thanks for your edits; IMHO the timeline for the year 1943 is not adequate - only two events in the whole year of the Siege?!? - there was much more going in Leningrad in 1943.130.166.34.165 (talk) 05:06, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Yea, Holmes is my man!! The siege however is not my subject quite frankly. I found the article in a serendipitous way and noticed some opportunities to improve it. Hope to visit the place againg this summer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.159.37.226 (talk) 06:10, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanx for improving the article.130.166.34.165 (talk) 02:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Source mishandling

Unfortunately you seem to misunderstood the sources you have, and you also doesn't seem to have all relevant sources. I'll recommend you to read the Continuation War article and especially Finnish reconquest of the Karelian Isthmus (1941).

However, Finnish forces were stopped by the 23rd Army under Marshal Govorov as they crossed the old Soviet-Finnish border on the Karelian Isthmus. -Mannerheim oredered the line where attack should be stopped already before Finns crossed the old border few days earlier.

The Finnish attacks repeated several times during September-December of 1941 upon German pleas for attacks on Leningrad. -Where did you got this information? It cannot be found in unit diaries or HQ orders, and no excess casualties (also available in online database)

This caused Britain to declare war on Finland on December 6, 1941. ref Finland in the Second World War. Between Germany and Russia. By Olli Vehvvilainen. English translation by Gerard McAlister. Palgrave, 2002, page 100, 101, 104./ref -Sentence not supported by the given source. And it is Vehviläinen, not Vehvvilainen.

The Finns temporarily took, but failed to keep Beloostrov, -Interesting claim, as it is very easy to check from the maps, that both center and railway station was nicely behind Finnish frontline all the time. Soviets recaptured a few house nameless village when straightening the frontline, though.

they also advanced further south from the River Svir in the occupied East Karelia, but failed to establish the second circle of siege in conjunction with Germans. -Finns had announced beforehand that they will advance to the Svir. Even crossing the river at all was an act of opportunity, but there was never an intention to continue attack further S-SW to meet the Germans. --Whiskey (talk) 08:02, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

1. Record of active Finnish participation in Siege of Leningrad in the book "Finland in the Second World War. Between Germany and Russia." By Olli Vehvilainen. English translation by Gerard McAlister. Palgrave, 2002. (the book is available in most libraries and universities)

Page 89. One day before the Operation Barbarossa began, president Ryti stated to a parlimentary delegation... "If a war now breaks between Germany and Russia it could be to the advantage of the whole world."

Pages 98 - 101. Finnish forces crossed the line of Finland's 1939 border, and occupied Russian territories north and east of Leningrad.

Page 100. Churchill appealed to Mannerheim in a personal letter: Surely your troops advanced far enough for security during the war and could now halt and give leave. (Note: Finns did not leave, but blocked the railroad connecting Leningrad with Murmansk and crossed the Svir River trying to connect with Germans to form the larger "second circle" around Leningrad. At the same time Finland expelled all British diplomats from Helsinki.)

Page 100. On 6 December, Great Britain declared war on Finland. This was followed by declaration of war from Canada, Australia, India and New Zealand.

Page 104. Hitler proposed a Finnish border which would run from the White Sea to the Svir River and the Neva River. Hitler's proposal was supported by Ryti who announced in the Finnish Parliament the plan of conquering more lands in the east for the Greater Finland.

Page 104. ..plans drawn up in the Finnish Headquarters in summer 1941, it was the task of the occupation authorities of eastern Karelia to prepare the region for permanent integration with Finland as part of the plan for the Greater Finland.

Page 105. Russian place names were replaced with Finnish ones. The population was segregated into 'nationals' and 'non-nationals'... and the latter were to be deported

Page 107. ... the fate of prisoners of war was even more horrible. In 1941 over 65,000 soviet soldiers had been taken prisoner by the Finns. ... during the first winter, over 10,000 prisoners died of hunger and disease in the overcrouded camps. all in all, over 18,700 men died ... while in captivity in Finland.

Page 108. As hopes of a German victory evaporated, so also public references to a "greater Finland" wained.... in June 1944, ..a massive offensive by the Red Army forced the Finns to withdraw from the area (Eastern Karelia, north-east of Leningrad). Then the dream of a Greater Finland was finally buried.

Page 109. For two-and-a-half years the Finnish Army occupied the positions it had captured in autumn 1941 in Eastern Karelia and north of Leningrad.

2. Fact from Encyclopedia Britannica "...prolonged siege of the city of Leningrad by German and Finnish armed forces during WWII." [9]

Please be diligent! Please be wise! Grow to the task. Do not rush to argument without reading the books from the list of sources diligently page by page.

Nobody wants Wikipedia contradicting with facts from Encyclopedia Britannica: "...prolonged siege of the city of Leningrad by German and Finnish armed forces during WWII." [10]130.166.34.165 (talk) 22:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, as you didn't provide any sources to any issues I presented above in your reply, can I assume that you do not have any sources proving your statements, so I can remove them in agreement from the article? But you did manage to correct Vehvilänen's spelling, thanks! --Whiskey (talk) 14:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Original research

Whiskey (talk) insists that only Nikolai Baryshnikov says that Finnish army took part in the Siege. By doing this repeatedly Whiskey keeps pushing Wikipedia in conflict with Encyclopedia Britannica's fact: "...prolonged siege of the city of Leningrad by German and Finnish armed forces during WWII." [11]

Also Whiskey (talk) is pushing another generalization that 'Almost all historians regard the siege as a German operation and do not consider that the Finns effectively participated in the siege'. But time and again Whiskey's original research is conflicting with Encyclopedia Britannica, World Book, books by Bidlack, Carell, Clark, and other academic sources from which many citations are represented in the article and in discussion above.

Fact from Encyclopedia Britannica "...prolonged siege of the city of Leningrad by German and Finnish armed forces during WWII." [12] has never been disputed by serious sources. In fact academic works by Bidlack, Carell, Clark, Vehvilanen, and Nikolai Baryshnikov provide readers with maps and facts that Finnish army together with the Nazi Germany participated in the Siege of Leningrad. But Whiskey (talk) is pushing original research insisting that only Baryshnikov supports the view that active Finnish participation occurred. How about Britannica, World Book, books by Bidlack, Carell, Clark, Vehvilanen and other academic sources?

Such passages as "Controversy over Finnish participation" and "Only Nikolai Baryshnikov ... " are incorrect and conflicting with Encyclopedia Britannica and other academic sources. Original research and personal opinion by Whiskey (talk) has no real bearing at all and must be deleted, as was mentioned by other users.

Thus personal opinion by Whiskey (talk) is deleted according to prior discussion and "original research" guidelines.

Nobody wants Wikipedia contradicting with facts from Encyclopedia Britannica: "...prolonged siege of the city of Leningrad by German and Finnish armed forces during WWII." [13]130.166.34.165 (talk) 05:02, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Wikipedia should not contradict with Encyclopedia Britannica. Original research and personal opinion by Whiskey (talk) has no real bearing at all and must be deleted, as was mentioned by other users. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.34.80.73 (talk) 21:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Introduction

Introduction should not contradict with Encyclopedia Britannica "...prolonged siege of the city of Leningrad by German and Finnish armed forces during WWII. The siege actually lasted 872 days." [14]130.166.34.165 (talk) 05:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

And in a same source just one paragraph below: The ensuing German blockade and siege claimed 650,000 Leningrader lives in 1942 alone, mostly from starvation, exposure, disease, and shelling from distant German artillery. Even the Britannica article contradicts itself, illustrating how controversial the issue of Finnish participation is. --Whiskey (talk) 06:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica is a good source. Wikipedia should not contradict with Britannica. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.34.80.73 (talk) 21:28, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Finnish army helping Germans

The Finnish forces were stopped by the 23rd Army under Marshal Govorov as they crossed the old Soviet-Finnish border on the Karelian Isthmus.

The Finnish attacks repeated several times during September-December of 1941 upon German pleas for attacks on Leningrad.

This caused Britain to declare war on Finland on December 6, 1941. ref Finland in the Second World War. Between Germany and Russia. By Olli Vehvvilainen. English translation by Gerard McAlister. Palgrave, 2002, pages 100, 101, 104.

The Finns temporarily took, but failed to keep Beloostrov, they also advanced further south from the River Svir in the occupied East Karelia, but failed to establish the second circle of siege in conjunction with Germans.

1. Facts of active Finnish participation in Siege of Leningrad in the book "Finland in the Second World War. Between Germany and Russia." By Olli Vehvilainen. English translation by Gerard McAlister. Palgrave, 2002. (the book is available in libraries)