Talk:Shooting of Ralph Yarl

The life of Andrew Daniel Lester

Lester is not a full-time KC resident according to his records. He was a KC resident at the time of the shooting, but he is not born and raised in KC. The only information I can find about him is that he is born in October 1938 according to a picture released by Heavy.com on his previous charge document, grew up in multiple states according to records, and Newsweek reported that he was once an America West Airlines technician. So the statement here is that it was unknown when he began living in the KC area. 2600:1702:5225:C010:7C05:44EF:70D2:6545 (talk) 12:09, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Update

Lester is born in Virginia in October 1938, but was unknown where in Virginia Lester was born in. He spent his childhood in Virginia, but Lester moved to Kansas City after he got his job as a technician for America West Airlines (now defunct), where he worked there for many years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:5225:C010:7C05:44EF:70D2:6545 (talk) 14:58, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

All of that is totally irrelevant to the shooting. This is not a biography of Lester. WWGB (talk) 15:08, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

True and I know that, but it is appropriate to add at least some info behind a suspect and not all, including date of birth, where he was born, and when (and why) he moved to the area. I told other wiki users earlier this year saying that it is okay and appropriate enough to do so. 2600:1702:5225:C010:7C05:44EF:70D2:6545 (talk) 16:45, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Please read WP:OR. Your internet sleuthing of Peoplefinder-type sites is not an acceptable source. Even if the information were relevant enough for this article, which it's not.

I told other wiki users earlier this year saying that it is okay and appropriate enough to do so. I'm sorry, but what? Based on what actual Wikipedia guideline or policy? Moncrief (talk) 17:02, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

It was a personal policy. I forgot what it is because it has been a while since I've read all about it. People say that you can only add a suspect's DOB, where he originally lived, and why he moved to the area, but it's not appropriate to put family information or relatives. That's illegal. I'm very sorry for all the sleuthing I did here but, it's my fault for doing so because every suspect has a story behind it. 2600:1702:5225:C010:7C05:44EF:70D2:6545 (talk) 18:27, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I give up, I quit Wikipedia. Every time I give out information, its always a restriction. I am done. 2600:1702:5225:C010:7C05:44EF:70D2:6545 (talk) 18:42, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what to tell you. Like all systems and (at least semi-) respected sources of information, Wikipedia has guidelines and rules in place. None of us edit Wikipedia with our own idea of a "personal policy." We follow universal guidelines set up over time to make this place work. Read WP:OR (among many other policies). Moncrief (talk) 19:01, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I've already read it. And I am very sorry for the sleuthing. You are smarter than me, and it's just I'm currently investigating the origins behind Lester. It's just the information we are looking for has not been released yet, but I found some clues.

Maybe once this is over, then it will be appropriate enough to add some more detail but not too much detail behind him. 2600:1702:5225:C010:7C05:44EF:70D2:6545 (talk) 19:09, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Like WWGB said earlier, this isn't a biography about Lester. Going into the shooter's personal life is irrelevant to the article's topic, and, in my opinion, insensitive; the article isn't about the shooter, it's about what he did. No matter how long ago this happened doesn't change that. B3251 (talk) 19:14, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I know it's mainly about what he did, but other incidents in the past involve at least only a tiny bit of background behind a person. I'm not mad at you guys at all, it's just that I am a stupid user and I deserved to get banned from editing or terminated completely from Wikipedia.

I was going to plan by saying: "The suspect was identified as ##-year-old John "Middle" Doe (born MM/DD/YYYY), a then-current local resident born and raised in [childhood hometown, state]. Doe moved to [location of the incident] in [year or decade] (for (or after) [reason (optional)])" and that's it, but I don't think it will be appropriate for you guys because this is not a biography and I know it isn't. It's just an example. 2600:1702:5225:C010:7C05:44EF:70D2:6545 (talk) 19:27, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

From the Wikipedia policy No original research, "To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article and directly support[b] the material being presented." In other words, policy does not prevent you from adding material about Lester's background if it comes from a source that is about the shooting. That's the first hurdle. After satisfying that requirement, you have to overcome the preferences of the editors here, which could be very, very difficult. Sorry, but that sometimes happens to be the practice in Wikipedia for some highly charged topics like this one.

Note that there is biographical information about Yarl in this article because it satisfies policy, as far as coming from a source about the shooting, and it satisfies the preferences of the editors here.

"The victim was Ralph Yarl, a 16-year-old African American student at Staley High School.[5] His parents emigrated to the United States from Liberia.[6] Yarl is described by friends and family as an academically gifted student with an interest in music, with plans to study chemical engineering at Texas A&M University.[3]"

Bob K31416 (talk) 22:49, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Inconsistencies in this article

The lead section seems to have no mention of the accused's reason for the shooting. He told police that he believed it was a break-in and was in the right to be scared, as it was the night and was acting under the stand-your-ground principle. This article seems to be painting the picture that he just shot him because of his skin color, but that is not the case. If it was cold-hearted murder he wouldn't be released on bail right now, which proves that this article needs to be updated to add more context.

Source for the release: https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/18/us/kansas-city-ralph-yarl-shooting-tuesday/index.html 45.134.110.18 (talk) 22:21, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Assault; no one died. People accused of felonies get released on bail all the time. It's not our job to synthesize the justification for the shooting; that isn't an "inconsistency". VQuakr (talk) 22:27, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what's inconsistent, the article clearly states the accused statement. As VQuakr said no one has died, but the prosecutor's office said he wasn't charged with attempted murder because That is also why Lester wasn’t charged with attempted murder, Higginbotham said, because “the charge would be a lower level of offense than Assault in the First Degree and carry with it a lower range of punishment.”[1]. The article isn't trying to paint any picture, it is just repeating what the police/prosecutors reported, that there was a racial component. WikiVirusC^(talk) 22:41, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

If there was a racial component in the shooting, then why was he not charged with hate crimes and just assault instead? A racial component can mean anything, the only thing I am seeing is that he was scared because of his "size", which I will assume means that he thought a tall black teenager was attempting to break into his house. If that is a racial stereotype that he used to shoot him, then does that tell us that he is a racist? There is no telling until further updates, so it should be removed.

The fact that he was granted bond tells you that it is not racially motivated, as there would of been hate crime charges or even worse felonies. Like I said earlier, he was acting under the stand-your-ground law. He has enough of an alibi for the shooting as for anyone else acting in self-defense under a potential home intrusion during the night time. 45.134.110.18 (talk) 22:49, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

The fact that he was granted bond tells you that it is not racially motivated No, it absolutely doesn't. You also evidently don't know what an alibi is. You're not proposing anything actionable for the article and this talk page isn't for general discussion of the topic. VQuakr (talk) 23:16, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

"Some civil rights leaders urged a hate crime charge but Clay County Prosecuting Attorney Zachary Thompson said first-degree assault is a higher-level crime with a longer sentence – up to life in prison." WWGB (talk) 00:46, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

The prosecutor's office said there was a racial component, and when asked if there would be a hate crime charged, they said no because it was a lesser degree of felony than what he is being charged with. WikiVirusC^(talk) 00:18, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Racism portrayal?

Noting the current event tag, I am confused on what this article is trying to portray. Why did he shoot this person?

I can see an editor above noted that he allegedly acted under a law of standing your ground and was released on bond

Generally speaking, if it was a hate motivated crime he would of been charged for that. Why does this article portray it as such?

Guessing that he is a racist or such without any official confirmation violates WP:BLP, does it? Or is it allowed here?

Extremely weird if no source says that he holds racist views but police are saying it was race related despite no hate charges.

Rambling on isn't going to fix this issue, so can someone tell me why this article portrays him as racist with no valid reason? 99.127.62.16 (talk) 01:37, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

What specific passage in the article are you objecting to, and what is your specific suggestion for changing it? The article is not that long. Surely you can cite a particular quote or two. Moncrief (talk) 01:47, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Where does the article call him racist? Read the above comments about why a hate charge wasn't filed, it is a lesser charge than the one they charged him with. It simply state what sources say the prosecutors office said about there being a racial component. WikiVirusC^(talk) 01:50, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

The motive was not racist. Cwater1 (talk) 22:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 April 2023

Andrew Daniel Lester, an 84-year-old white man, initially released without charge, but following a huge public outcry was later charged in connection with the shooting on April 17, 2023. Atjane44 (talk) 06:59, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 09:34, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Police Report, via USAToday

The perpetrators answer to police questioning: "He said he saw a Black male about 6 feet tall pulling on the storm door handle and believed someone was breaking into the house. He said he feared for his safety and shot twice through the glass door within a few seconds of opening the interior door. The person ran away, Lester said, and no words were exchanged. The police report says Lester was visibly upset and expressed concern for the victim." Link: [[2]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.32.16.73 (talk) 20:58, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

It's unclear what you're asking for. Moncrief (talk) 00:48, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

To add to article

Details to add to this article: Yarl's attempts to seek help from neighbors (apparently he was rejected by the first two neighbors, and the third neighbor is said to have actually held a gun on Yarl while calling police for assistance). 173.88.246.138 (talk) 03:12, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Added seeking help from multiple homes, do you have RS for neighbour holding a gun on him? WWGB (talk) 05:20, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Unable to edit this article

I was going to add the fact (with source from the Kansas City Star) that Ralph Yarl's parents fled Liberia and settled in the U.S. in order to escape violence in Liberia, but was prevented from doing so because this article appears to be locked from editing. Please fix this ridiculous situation! 173.88.246.138 (talk) 03:13, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

The article already states that Yarl's parents emigrated to the U.S. from Liberia. What specifically are you asking to add (provide a full quote and its reference). "Escaping violence" is a vague statement, but editors can evaluate the source material and see if it would be a useful expansion on the information already here. Moncrief (talk) 05:21, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

The article is locked to prevent vandalism. If you make a suggestion in the talk page, someone who can edit the article can edit the article for you. B3251 (talk) 11:05, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

WP:SUSPECT

Hello,

In the article about the Shooting of Kinsley White I added details about the suspect including name, age and previous arrests which was then removed by User:Fram citing WP:SUSPECT. Given that I'm using this article as a template for that one, it made sense to include such details. User:Fram declined to provide any clarification so I'm wondering if someone here would explain should I remove the "Accused" section from this article per WP:SUSPECT or if not, what are the qualifications for including such information? --FlameRetardant (talk) 22:32, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't see any reason his name shouldn't be included as the accused there as he has been arrested and charged. The only thing I can think of is that story hasn't been as widely covered as this one. WikiVirusC^(talk) 22:45, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Policy discussion at BLP mentioning this article

There is an ongoing policy discussion at WP:BLP entitled Naming accused perpetrators of crimes debating the question of whether articles about high-profile criminal cases should name any known suspect(s) prior to conviction, especially when they are only known for their involvement with the event in question. This article is featured as one example of twenty fitting these criteria which named the suspect(s) after being published by reliable sources. I will be copying this message to the other articles so that interested editors have an opportunity participate in the debate. Xan747 (talk) 17:25, 22 July 2023 (UTC)