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Abram Terger

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It is with pity that another social inadequate descends on a simple article and starts trying to fit their view of the cosmos on its purpose. To inform people about the film. Irrespective of whether it matters if the rules are there or not. This is an old film that actually was the starting-out point for many actors who went on to be more famous. Sticking to very narrow criteria is the domain of a fundamentalist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.182.44.218 (talk) 22:53, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@86.182.44.218:Please refrain from personal attacks, it will not help your argument and can get you banned. Please review the guidelines in WP:FILMCAST and [[WP. WP is not meant to be Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. If there are bit parts for "actors who went on to be more famous", the typical practice is to include those actors in a paragraph after the credited/billed list including citations to reliable sources that indicate [WP:NOTABILITY|notability]] of the actor or the role.AbramTerger (talk) 00:16, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
WP:FILMCAST doesn't seem to say what you state it says. An encyclopedic article should contain information without it being trivia. Cast members, particularly those which have their own pages, are not trivial additions.Onel5969 (talk) 01:33, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Case-by-case judgment is needed. It's been a while since I saw this film, so I cannot comment on the prominence of the uncredited parts. But at a minimum, roles that were uncredited need to be labelled as such in the Cast list, which the IP did not do. They might be better placed in Casting section prose, if they're only being included because the actors later became notable. - Gothicfilm (talk) 02:05, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
all roles were credited as per AFI database, see (http://www.afi.com/members/catalog/DetailView.aspx?s=&Movie=26100) Onel5969 (talk) 03:15, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, all the actors beyond Noble Johnson were uncredited according to both the AFI and IMDb. OS means "Offscreen Credit" at the AFI. - Gothicfilm (talk) 04:55, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have put the uncredited actors in a paragraph with a citation needed. IMDB, AFI, etc lists are WP:IINFO so do not pass WP:NOTABILITY standards.AbramTerger (talk) 09:33, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I removed Rudy Bowman and Harry Woods since the articles are stubs so do not pass WP:NOTABILITY standards. I would also recommend removing Francis Ford,Cliff Lyons, Frank McGrath, Mickey Simpson, William Steele and Dan White since their roles in this film are not even notable to mention it on their pages. The only real notable one for me is Peter J. Ortiz the decorated marine from WWII.AbramTerger (talk) 09:47, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Francis Ford was John's older brother, and a known player long before this film was made. He must have had a brief cameo here for it to be uncredited. One could argue it's notable because it was one of the last times he appeared in one of John's films. - Gothicfilm (talk) 10:09, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think that information would be great in the note, if you could source it. I am not opposed to adding the uncredited actors, just adding any uncredited actor without a source or a comment about the notability. I also did some checking on Peter Ortiz and I am removing him unless someone finds a reference for him appearing in this film. He did act in several films and I found a reference citing his work but that makes no mention of this film even though it calls out 2 other Wayne films he acted in: "Peter Ortiz also found work as an actor appearing in Twelve O'Clock High (1949), Spy Hunt (1950), When Willie Comes Marhing Home (1950), Sirocco (1951), Retreat Hell (1952), Jubilee Train (1954), King Richard and the Crusaders (1954), Son of Sinbad (1955), Seventh Cavalry (1956), and the John Wayn movies Rio Grande (1950) and The Wings of Eagles (1957)."[1] It does not mean he was not in this film, I think it needs a WP:RS to include him.AbramTerger (talk) 11:23, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Wise, James E.; Anne Collier Rehill (1999). "Peter J. Ortiz". Stars in the Corps: Movie Actors in the United States Marines (2nd ed.). Naval Institute Press. p. 64. ISBN 978-1-55750-949-9.
I found a citation for Francis and added it, separating it from the uncited uncredited list.AbramTerger (talk) 11:46, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The citation is not there to establish notability, it is there to establish verifiability. Wikipedia has its own notability criteria; basically if an article exists then the subject is de facto notable and the correct route to challenge that assumption is at AfD. Betty Logan (talk) 15:57, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree that the format is a good compromise, and I like the added fact regarding Ford's brother. Couple of things, "offscreen credit" does not mean that the actor is uncredited. In fact, it fairly simply states the opposite, that the actor is uncredited, but that the credit is not stated on the screen. Many of these older films did not list screen credits, since they were limited to short credit cards at the end of the films. These actors may be unbilled, but they are not uncredited. I agree somewhat with AbramTerger, regarding the notability issue. I tweaked the broken out paragraph a bit, deleting an actor (Fixx), who was not listed in the citation, and re-adding Trooper Smith (who, btw, is an excellent example of the difference between unbilled and uncredited - he was in a number of films for which he was uncredited, but this film is not one of them, here he receives on offscreen credit - a clear delineation in the industry, as evidenced by the AFI database). I re-added him, for although his screen time is not significant, his one scene is a crucial plot point in the film.Onel5969 (talk) 15:09, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • Hi DoctorJoeE! As I stated on the page itself, the citation actually doesn't verify that those two members were in the cast, it simply alludes to another source (which it does not mention by name, so it can't be checked for veracity), as stating they were members of the cast. You're right, White, should also not be included, unless a different citation can be provided. I will correct that.Onel5969 (talk) 15:37, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to see agreement on the notability of Francis Ford. But let me say, if a person's name does not appear in the onscreen credits (or on the poster), than they are uncredited for our purposes, and the article needs to state that. "Offscreen Credit" and uncredited effectively mean the same thing for the film-goer. - Gothicfilm (talk) 15:57, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Can you use a format akin to Anchorman 2: The Legend Continues, where there is the billed cast, then the credited cameo members, and then the uncredited notable cast members? -AngusWOOF (talk) 16:43, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

      • We are getting a bit caught up in the minutiae here. It's just a movie, after all, and all of these actors (including Paul Fix and Dan White) are in it; one need only watch it to see that. But yes, I'm well aware of the need for WP:RS, and again, I have several reference volumes that should provide cites acceptable to everyone, once I find time to dig them out. Meanwhile, we seem to have reached some sort of equilibrium on this burning question. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 17:20, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's a simple premise all legitimate sources follow - roles that were uncredited need to be labelled as such. The AFI is unusual because it uses the term "Offscreen Credit", but that means the same thing - there's no onscreen credit for that person. (Hitchcock, by his own choice, never took a producer credit, so it's usually noted that he was the uncredited producer on his last two dozen films. And John Ford, for that matter, usually did the same thing. On all but one film where he was a producer as well as director, he took "directed by" credit but not a producer credit - including Yellow Ribbon, where he was one of the film's two producers.) That doesn't mean an uncredited person is blocked from being mentioned in the article. Not at all. The same standard of notability applies. Smaller credited roles well down the Cast list are usually not included on WP articles for more recent releases. It's true that older films credited less actors, often leaving out the smallest roles, so you're more likely to include uncredited roles from them, as we see in this case. - Gothicfilm (talk) 23:00, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Even though earlier films did not credit as many actors, typically even with newer films we don't list all the credited actors, only those in the billing block or billed in the film. We add notable credited and uncredited roles (with WP:RS). Finding a citation that indiscriminantly lists everyone that is in the film goes against policy. I found an actual reference that lists some uncredited roles that I hope is a good compromise.AbramTerger (talk) 12:30, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Shirly Temple stared, not Joanne Drew

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Shirly Temple stared, not Joanne Drew 47.204.49.45 (talk) 22:38, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong movie. You're thinking of Fort Apache. Temple wasn't in She Wore a Yellow Ribbon. Intothatdarkness 22:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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