Talk:Shawarma/Archive 3

Food

Good read [[User:Brian Poroporo|Brian Poroporo] (talk) 16:47, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

I 💗💖💝💟💓it just a tiny beety prob aren't there other types of sharwarmas asking in a polite manner Egbodo huddy (talk) 21:52, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Wrong picture

The picture at the top of the page is very clearly a doner, not a shawarma. Is it any wonder half the people on here seem to think they're the same thing? 81.96.200.247 (talk) 19:11, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

It is cleatly not a Sharwarma like serious who would believe it Egbodo huddy (talk) 21:56, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

I Completely agree with you, shawarma is not ground meat and ground meat is berlin style doner kebab. Someone seriously needs to remove that picture. FreakyBoy (talk) 12:27

 Removed. WWGB (talk) 01:04, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Shish taouk

Shish taouk (or Tavouk sis) is served by Lebanese restaurants and bistros worldwide. Other than currently stated in the article, this meal and name is not a Canadian or Montreal speciality. For example, in Germany this is often also called Schichtawuk (Germanized from sis tavouk). It is marinated and slightly different from a Shawarma platter. Rio65trio (talk) 06:11, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Is the montreal section necessary?

Even in whats been written, there's nothing to suggest that Montreal deserves singling out in an article on Shawarma, nor do I think we need to have entries for every city in the world that shawarma is sold in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.87.104.5 (talk) 09:51, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Completely agree. There's absolutely no reason to single out Montreal in its own section, and, if any city were to be explicitly mentioned, it wouldn't be Montreal. This section should be removed.64.229.35.219 (talk) 05:22, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

 Removed. WWGB (talk) 06:14, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Origin stories

With regard to recent edits, I don't in principle object to calling it a "Middle Eastern" dish rather than "Levantine", but we would need at least one reliable, published source in addition to the current one that says "Levantine". Self-published websites, blogs, etc., are not adequate, please see WP:NOTRELIABLE. On the other hand, I would like to hear a good reason as to why this is necesary. What exactly is the problem with "Levantine", and what is accomplished by changing it? Even more so, the reasoning behind changing the "Place of Origin" to Turkey, and the related changes to the "See also" lists and categories. Please note that hardly a week goes by that someone does not attempt to change the origin story of one type of kebab or another, and these changes are mostly treated with a great deal of skepticism. Very strong evidence and rational arguments are required. It's also important to note the difference between where a dish originated, and where it is now commonly available; there may well be some ambiguities in the existing text about this. In my opinion, although shawarma is clearly derived from doner kebab, it is distinct enough with its Arabic name and unique ingredients such as sesame sauce etc., that it can be said to have originated outside of Turkey. This is the approach taken in the gyros article for example, where it's described as a Greek dish. --IamNotU (talk) 02:59, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

not Middle Eastern

Iran is in the Middle East but most Iranians have never heard of shawarma or any food like that. It is Arabic food with probably Turkish origins but it is not Middle Eastern. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.85.142.70 (talk) 19:07, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

With regard to your edit replacing "Middle Eastern" with "Arab": Shawarma comes from the Middle East (Anatolia, the Levant, etc.), and is described that way in many reliable sources including the Oxford Companion to Food, see the citation in the article. It is not in keeping with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy to call it an exclusively Turkish or Arab food. --IamNotU (talk) 20:45, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

There's lots of foods from my country (or, more widely, my continent) that I have never seen or heard of, much less eaten, but they are still from my country/continent. --Khajidha (talk) 22:48, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Flatbread

I don't know why you keep removing that the wrap is in flatbread. Most of the time the wrap is a tortilla. No one cares about the fine distinction of whether the bread is made in a tandoor because the chance of your finding such bread at any urban stall in the Middle East is very little. These days the flatbread wraps are all made with regular flour tortillas with exception of sometimes another type of pita style bread is used. Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 16:19, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Shofet tsaddiq, if you want to address someone, you need to mention their user name and use one of the user notification templates such as template:ping, template:u, etc. - I'm assuming you were talking to me. I have not been "removing that the wrap is in flatbread". The article had said that shawarma can be prepared: "as a wrap, inside of a flatbread such as laffa or pita." This statement is supported by the citation of Gil Marks, which says "the falling shards are piled into a pita or laffa." You changed that to: "as a wrap, similar to dürüm, inside of a flatbread such as laffa or pita." Although it may be true that shawarma is in some places served in a way "similar to a dürüm", it's not true everywhere. Your change implies that all shawarma sandwich/wraps are "similar to a dürüm", which is factually incorrect, and contradicts the source, which also describes shawarma stuffed into a pocket pita. That's one of the most common forms of preparation in many places, and is not "similar to a dürüm". Your statements above such as "These days the flatbread wraps are all made with regular flour tortillas", that edit, and others such as saying that a shawarma platter is (always) served over rice, or inserting "french fries" into the list of ingredients, seem to be based on your personal experience of the way things are done in your area of the world. Such original research and unsourced material may be challenged and removed at any time. --IamNotU (talk) 22:50, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

IamNotU Oh ok, sorry for not pinging, I will remember to do this. I have removed these things about french fries and dürüm. I reviewed the policy you mentioned for OR. It says in a bold font in the first sentence "Wikipedia articles must not contain original research". Can you show me where you think I added "These days the flatbread wraps are all made with regular flour tortillas" to the article which you are accusing me of wrongdoing? I have already removed this content so why this argument for the sake of argument about content no longer in the article? Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 22:54, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

IamNotU Can you please show me citation that supports your edit "While not as popular at the lamb version"? Please do not change the content that is not supported by the citation I added. Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 23:12, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

@Shofet tsaddiq: the source says: "Shawarma djaj is one such dish, although its reputation is less than that of the great meat shawarma (Spiced Meat, see here)" The "Spiced Meat, see here" is a link to the book's recipe for standard lamb shawarma. --IamNotU (talk) 23:35, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

"Athough its reputation is less" is not what this means. I think it does not mean it is less popular, only that it is less well known outside Lebanon. If you are removing french fries because you think it is OR, I respect and am very careful citations, but don't demand others to do what you are not doing yourself.Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 23:42, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't mean to barge in on this discussion, but that book is very shabby, written in faltering English. No point discussing what an author means when she can't write. "Reputation" does not go with "less" or "more," unless one writes a sentence such as "Its reputation is less than stellar." Consign the book to the trash barrel. It is not a scholarly source. It is a badly written cookbook. I'm surprised the book has been published by Random House. It can't be used on WP. I don't care who first used it in the article, but it is not a reliable source Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:21, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler I agree and I've already removed it. I thought I would easily find additional sources but I could only find recipes, which are not enough. I'm surprised there are not better sources for this, but I don't think this book can be used by itself.Shofet tsaddiq (talk) 00:35, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

israeli appropriation

Can somebody explain to me why this reliably sourced material is being removed? I removed Middle East Eye, the other sources (The Independent, al-Jazeera, Steven Salaita writing in al-Araby are all fine. What exactly is "POV" about this? It is a significant view published in reliable sources that Israeli attempts to brand this item as Israeli amounts to cultural appropriation and or theft. nableezy - 18:11, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

This has been removed by more than one editor. The appropriate thing to do is to discuss it first, and then restore it if there is consensus to keep the material. I've removed it again pending the outcome of this discussion. The editor who restored it incorrectly called it a bad faith removal and falsely claimed that the material had been approved by an admin. This has been discussed on my talk page, and his or her talk page,and the talk page of the IP who first removed it. Despite multiple requests to open a talk page discussion here he or she did not.

You version is an improvement over the original version, but I still don't feel it be is acceptable. The main issue to me is the attempt to shoehorn a claim of cultural appropriation into a section on the history of the food. I don't see any sources saying the Israelis claim to have invented shawarma. We can improve the sources and the neutrality of the wording to accurately describe what is happening .(an article called it an iconic Israeli food, and some have taken offense). but why bother? Israeli eat shawarma and like it. So what? How is that cultural appropriation, and why is it in this article? Are they not allowed to eat what other Middle Easterners eat? As i said, I eat it too, and I'm not Palestinian (or Arabic) or Israeli.

Pinging other named editors involved user:Innovative Username user:IamNotU and leaving link on IP's page. Meters (talk) 19:21, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Im sorry but who exactly cares how many people have removed it. There is zero policy basis in your argument. Reliable sources consider this something relevant to shawarama and Israeli claims to it being Israeli cuisine. You may not care about that, but the sources cited clearly do. Can you please justify, with some policy backing your position, why you have removed well sourced material from the article? Why is it cultural appropriation? The answer, on Wikipedia, is because reliable sources say so. nableezy - 04:42, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

And that's why we're on the talk page. To see what consensus is reached about this contested material. Meters (talk) 04:55, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

ok... You have any policy based rationale for removing that well sourced material? Because if not I am going to restore it. You not feeling it acceptable is not one of the required criteria for content in the encyclopedia. So, do you have any policy based reason here? nableezy - 18:34, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

I have already mentioned the policy-based reason POV, as you are well aware..The fact that you apparently don't agree with it does not mean that it is not there. So now we're waiting for other editors to comment, so we can reach consensus. I also mentioned the issue with sourcing (which you have partially addressed) and the fact that this simply does not belong in a section on the history of the food. And the reason I mentioned that more than one editor had undone this addition was to show that this edit had been contested, and should have been discussed here rather than being restored again by you. Meters (talk) 19:40, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Except that policy does not even begin to support your view. NPOV requires all significant views published in reliable sources to be included proportional to their weight. That Israeli claims to shawarama being "Israeli cuisine" are an example of cultural appropriation is such a view. It does not matter if more than one editor has made that reversion, especially considering WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 which bars IPs from editing in the Arab-Israeli topic area. What in NPOV supports your position? nableezy - 19:47, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

I've been waiting to see if Innovative Username had any comment, but it seems they've lost interest. Btw, if the IP is barred, then so is Innovative Username (less than 500 edits). Hopefully we don't need to go there...

The intersection of food, cultural identity/politics, and globalization is a very interesting topic. There is no shortage of reliable sources that address the issues particular to this region, and it would be good for Wikipedia to have better coverage of it. I watched the Al Jazeera documentary with Mona Ibellini that was cited, and found it very interesting, well-written, and balanced. Unfortunately I can't say the same about the material that was added to the article, that cited it as support. It comes across as obvious WP:ADVOCACY or activism.

Nableezy is correct to point out that we must consider the NPOV policy, for example as is written at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view § Due and undue weight, requiring that an article "fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. [...] An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject". In doing this, we must consider the general subject of shawarma, and the prominence in the entire body of reliable sources on the subject, to determine the appropriate proportion. If the article was about "politics of food in Israel", then certainly we could go into great detail about the various opinions and aspects of it, as virtually every reliable source on that subject would mention it. The article about cultural appropriation could maybe have a brief section about branding "Israeli" dishes. But this is the global article about shawarma. I've done a fair amount of research and editing about the origins and migrations of döner/shawarma/gyros/etc. I have several encyclopedias of food, like the great four-volume "Food Cultures of the World" which has extensive entries for both Palestinian and Israeli food and culture, plus numerous other books that discuss shawarma as it is enjoyed all around the world. Exactly zero of them mention the idea of Israel appropriating it, let alone call it "theft". So, although I don't want to downplay in any way the serious threats that Palestinians and Palestinian culture face from Israel, I'm not at all convinced that the issue warrants even a mention in this short article, nevermind such a partisan treatment of it.

One more thing I should mention: shawarma originated in Ottoman Anatolia. As far as I know, there is no evidence of it having existed in Palestine before the 20th century, and it is, essentially, a regional variation of a Turkish dish, with a Turkish loanword as a name. So I find the accusations of theft of traditional Palestinian culture to be somewhat ironic. On the other hand, spit-roasted meat and flatbread go back to the stone age, so who can talk about theft? I do understand how and why it can be upsetting for Arabs to hear for example hummus called an "Israeli national dish". But I find the nationalistic bickering on Wikipedia, with infobox "origin" of various dishes being changed almost daily between various Middle Eastern West Asian countries gets tedious, and well-deserving of its place in Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars § Hummus and friends. If even the hummus article can touch on the subject without the polemics (I did a little work on that) I'm sure we can avoid it here - though again I'm not convinced that it needs to be mentioned at all in this article. --IamNotU (talk) 01:28, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Encyclopedias of food are not the only reliable sources. The reliable sources cited do consider Israeli appropriation to be a topic relevant to Shawarma, and per NPOV they need to be represented. You can only claim the treatment given is "partisan" if there are some sources that dispute that and they are not included. nableezy - 20:03, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I took a long break from Wikipedia for various reasons, including incessant deleting of my and others' content because of clear dislike for what is well-sourced material. Unfortunately, facts are facts. There is nothing more I can say about this. Well-sourced and highly reputable sources have considered Israeli use of shawarma to be cultural appropriation. I can't say any more than that, we need to get this restored as it's a valuable point of discussion and would ask user:Meters to do so. Innovative Username (talk) 16:06, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

So, what you're saying is you took a break because you didn't get your way on this article, and now you want to start it up again? Once again, Israelis eating shawarma and liking it, and a site calling it an iconic Israeli street food does not make this cultural appropriation. Meters (talk) 18:52, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi @Meters:. I'm really sorry but what you're advocating is pure POV. We've got really strong sources to argue for this point and it needs to be included for that reason. I understand you don't like it, that's unfortunate, but you're simply engaging with this from outside the well-sourced body of literature provided. I'll request that we build consensus here. Try to be as objective as possible, I get that it's hard and you're clearly struggling with it based on your comments but I'm more than willing to help you and work through your biases! Thanks. Innovative Username (talk) 01:07, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

If you have strong sources that call this cultural appropriation then let's see them. I have not seen any reliable sources that say that Israelis invented or stole this food, or that they appropriated it, just that they eat it , they like it and someone has called it an iconic Israeli street food. If all you have is what you had last time this was discussed, then drop it. There is no POV in removing an improperly sourced claim, and saying I'm struggling with this and biased is a personal attack. I don't care who invented it or who eats it. A middle eastern group eating a food that some other (neighbouring) middle eastern group wants to claim as their own is not cultural appropriation. Meters (talk) 01:47, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

@Meters: We provided a litany of sources, from Al-Jazeera, to The New Arab, to the Independent. It seems you and @Nableezy: dislike the Middle East Eye. I am not sure why, but no matter, we have several other sources that clearly and explicitly state why they consider the Israeli discourse around shawarma and other foodstuffs to be cultural appropriation. Innovative Username (talk) 02:39, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

The edit was challenged, more than once. It was restored to the status quo pending consensus on this page to add the material. I see no such consensus, and the claim of cultural appropriation has been out of the article for seven months now. If you want to try and defend your edit [1] which you falsely claimed had been "previously approved by a Wikipedia administrator" and which I called "full of POV and non-RS" then list the sources you claim support the various claims, particularly the claim "the Israeli relationship to shawarma has been widely criticised as "theft", cultural appropriation, and an attempt to erase Palestinian culture and connection to the land." Meters (talk) 03:59, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

@Meters: "the Israeli relationship to shawarma has been widely criticised as "theft", cultural appropriation, and an attempt to erase Palestinian culture and connection to the land."

• A description from a reputable source of the manifold ways people have considered this appropriation and theft. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/shawarma-israel-street-food-haaretz-headline-response-middle-east-a8721041.html
• Piece mostly about hummus as theft, but which mentions that shawarma is used by Israelis in a way which can be considered theft. https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/comment/2017/9/4/israeli-hummus-is-theft-not-appropriation
• An entire documentary about shawarma and other foods and how they are culturally appropriated in Jerusalem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9P5Phj0TFY
• There's also a piece from the Middle East Eye which I have removed as a mature attempt at compromise but which evinces the same thing.

As @Nableezy: has informed you, your objections are not policy based as there are RS sources which clearly consider that shawarma is being culturally appropriated by Israelis. We are here to present the facts of what has been said in RS sources about the topic matter at hand and this is that. You may disagree but this does not change the facts or the way in which this site runs. You may, of course, add any RS sources which argue the opposite, should you come across any. Innovative Username (talk) 04:19, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

@Meters: It would be good to hear your response to all these RS sources I have provided. Innovative Username (talk) 16:06, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

@Meters: Would be great to hear back from you since I provided what you asked for quite a while ago now!— Preceding unsigned comment added by Innovative Username (talk • contribs) 18:27, December 31, 2019 (UTC)

I'm not the person you're annoying with the pings, but I'll bite.

1. The Independent article does not claim that Israelis are appropriating schwarma.One newspaper claimed it was "making a comeback" in Jersualem. Which is hyperbolic, but not exactly appropriation.

2. The New Arab article is an opinion piece, and cannot be cited as anything except the individual author's opinion. It cannot be cited as fact.

3. YouTube links are generally frowned upon. I haven't had a chance to watch the video and will leave that up to others for now (just checking in at work).

So, we have one that doesn't support your assertion, another that's an opinion piece, and a third that will need further evaluation. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 23:56, 31 December 2019 (UTC)