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Lead proposal

Above (23:33, 29 December 2010 UTC), NinaGreen proposed that the first paragraph of the lead, and the start of the second, be replaced with:

The consensus of the Shakespeare establishment and the public at large is that William Shakespeare of Stratford-upon-Avon was the author of the works traditionally attributed to him. However during the past 150 years a number of alternative authorship candidates have been put forward, and it is contended by some that Shakespeare of Stratford-upon-Avon was merely a front to shield the identity of the real author or authors, who for reasons such as social rank, state security or gender could not take public credit.
Scholars suggest that the controversy has its origins in Bardolatry, the adulation of Shakespeare in the 18th century as the greatest writer of all time ...

Style here is that the first sentence should define the topic, so the current lead starts properly, while the proposal would be too vague for someone wondering what the SAQ is. The proposal puts an emphasis on the past 150 years that I think is misleading. It is often true, and widely believed, that developments in the past 150 years have moved many fields (particularly science) from a primitive basis to proven and useful knowledge. Accordingly, the proposed wording may suggest that modern understanding (i.e. the correct view) is that Shakespeare was "merely a front". A more due reference to time might be [Bate 1998]: No one in Shakespeare's lifetime or the first two hundred years after his death expressed the slightest doubt about his authorship. The proposal changes the second paragraph from "Scholars contend..." to "Scholars suggest...". That's quite a big change which goes to the heart of the issue: do those who are known to be scholars in this field contend or merely suggest? My understanding is that "contend" is the more accurate term. Johnuniq (talk) 03:57, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I think you know the answer to that, Johnuniq. Scholars don't beat around the bush and write mushy, vague "suggestions" when it comes to the SAQ. And for God's sake! "it is contended by some"??? Reading that is like chewing tinfoil. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
The lead took almost a year of intensive negotiation to get to the formulation we now have. Every single word and then phrasing and sentence was subject to extensive review, as one can see in the archives. It must be conceded that wikipedia does not privilege a conservative notion of textual stability, but it is also true that articles and esp. the leads, especially sensitive ones with a history of intensive dispute, that have finally achieved through intensive negotiation some degree of stability, are only retouched if good grounds for altering a word or a phrasing have been argued over, and agreed to, on the talk page.
You suggest in just the first line:-

'The consensus of the Shakespeare establishment and the public at large is that William Shakespeare of Stratford-upon-Avon was the author of the works traditionally attributed to him. However . .'

The word 'establishment' is one you repeatedly use in these threads, and it is loaded. Webster-Merriam gives the sense you aim at introducing:

a group of social, economic, and political leaders who form a ruling class (as of a nation) b often capitalized : a controlling group <the literary establishment>

What your suggestion does is intimate, by a very tacit subliminal prompt, that there is a controlling group who rule over Shakespearean studies much as an elite caste in politics does. This 'Shakespearean establishment' is much like any political establishment, in that it monopolizes discourse, exercising a kind of discursive power that represses dissenting opinions, much as a 'literary establishment' does not represent the views of all those engaged in literature, but rather an entrenched coterie of those who have made it, who act as the arbiters of taste and make life difficult for aspiring, creative minds who are on the rise and do not share their values, opinions, beliefs, or endorse their aesthetic or even political positions.
Then you introduce the 'public at large', introducing a second level of discursive arbiters, on a par with the former, and the impression seeded in the readers' mind is that a complex issue of historical interpretation has two relevant tribunals, (a) the Shakespearean academic establishment and (b) public opinion.
Though you initially concede that they share, in this case, a consensual view, the showcasing of a 'public' court of opinion as being on a par with academic opinion looks like a rhetorical wedge that, if inserted, will then be used to destabilize the academic opinion. Why do I infer this?
On the 16th of December at 15:58, you wrote:

Ifanything will eventually overwhelm the Stratfordian position on the authorship, it's (sic) acceptance by the general public of the Prince Tudor theory when Roland Emmerich's film Anonymous is released next year.

(And don't forget the New Yorks Times poll of "Shakespeare professors"!) Tom Reedy (talk) 04:46, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
I.e. while the 'Shakespearean establishment' plies the worry beads over the intricate hermeneutics of 16th century textual issues, and concludes Shakespeare is Shakespeare, all this may (hopefully) be overwhelmed by the impact on the public mind of a piece of Hollywood fantasy, which ignores everything 3 centuries of intensive scholarship has established. Once the public is won over to the de Verean fringe view, the Shakespearean establishment's hegemonic grip on the interpretation of things will flounder, academic will be shipwrecked on the shoals of Hollywoodian hype and spectacular effects. A sleazily incestuous 'who-screwed-who' version of Elizabethan history will screw or backscuttle the bookish twits who actually read the archives.
It is a bit like writing the lead on creationism and giving public opinion equal status with science, and then, since the polls say the American public embraces Creationism, that the 'scientific establishment' is losing its power to dictate the agenda. It is fairly well documented in the academic literature that the attempt by the fringe theorists to get a foothold on Shakespearean studies faltered, and since 1980 the dominant effort has been redirected to turning public opinion. I could say more, but will refrain, since our supervisors have, with some justification, complained of the inconclusiveness of these threads. Nishidani (talk) 04:03, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
A quick trip into the talkpage archives would turn up several interminable discussions with the same title as this section. Things got so bad that the administrators assigned the warring factions to work on a sandbox version out of the mainspace to relieve those searching for information on Wikipedia (which should be our intended audience) from having to wade through the mire and contentious edit warring. When that proved unworkable, two sandbox versions were created to give each side a chance to produce a neutral version that met Wikipedia standards. The version that now exists took the place of the old version, and was undergoing peer review in an effort to achieve FA status, probably the first such effort made by an article concerning a fringe theory. Now the move is to begin again in the Sisyphean task of trying to placate a group of editors whose idea of neutrality is to pretend that anti-Stratfordism has equal weight with the reality version of Shakespeare's authorship? This is nothing more than the continence of the same edit war with the same tactics of attrition waged by another clone of the editor who was topic-banned after four years of Wikibullying good editors off the page in the name of "neutrality", which meant that Oxfordism had the same status as Stratfordism--anything else was bias, just as Nina has been harping on these past few weeks. the sheer tediousness of the arguments causes experienced administrators to throw up their hands and quit the field, which works to the advantage of the fringe warriors because their strategies only work with relatively new admins, or at least admins who have no experience with them and therefore tend to think that some kind of rational discussion can work things out.
You want to know how to write a lede? It's very simple with the merest of acquaintance with WP:LEDE: the first sentence should define the topic. The second should say why it's notable and in the case of a fringe topic, give the academic consensus about the topic. the next graf (the nut graf) should offer a bit of history about the subject and give more detail. the third, in the case of a fringe topic, should give a more detailed sketch of the academic response and why they hold it. The last should give the present-day status of the topic. All together the lede should be able to stand alone as an abstract of the entire article, IOW if all you read was the lede section, you would have a general idea of what the topic is about, its history, and the current status, including what the experts think about it. By good luck and coincidence, the present lede does all those things with the right amount of weight and does so in a succinct style with no excess verbiage. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:34, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Going back for a moment to reviewing talkpage interactions

Nishidani points out above that "Actually, just for the record, Tom did try, without success, to inform Nina of this crucial distinction [between WikiProject and policy], in his long reply on the 27th:'the Wikipedia Alternative Views project is not a policy.'"[1]

Yes. I'm sorry to say lack of success in informing Nina is what I have come to expect; it's one of the big problems on this page, and wastes everybody's time. Her talkpage editing all goes in one direction: lots of output, little or no intake. The editors of this page have been following the important wikipedia principle of generosity in teaching newcomers; but it doesn't seem to, how shall I put it... to take. Nina ignores it or wikilawyers to prove she knows better, whenever anybody addresses her. I mean, whenever, as she puts it, she's "lectured and criticized and harped at on policy by virtually every administrator and editor of this page since I came on board as an editor, with no praise from anyone for the fact that I almost single-handedly edited the entire Edward de Vere article".[2] Also for the record, Tom did praise her work on the de Vere article: "Thanks for all you've done; it's good to have someone work on it who has a deep background."[3] Also, on her user talk, he praised her work on the Shakespeare authorship question. I don't know why those posts don't count as "praise from anyone", Nina? Have you ever said anything half as civil to Tom about his work? Bishonen | talk 17:30, 30 December 2010 (UTC).

Nothing more indicates a basic misunderstanding of Wikipedia policies than the end of that statement: "... I almost single-handedly edited the entire Edward de Vere article to the point that it could easily be put forward for peer review to be accorded FA status)." The article is far from being FA quality, although it is a good compendium of raw material from which a good article could be refined with lots of work. At more than 100 kbs, it is probably the longest such biographical article on Wikipedia. It's even longer than the William Shakespeare article and the Elizabeth I of England article, and it has very few images. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:59, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Talk about moving the goalposts! From the Talk page for the Edward de Vere article:

OK [Tom]. And by the way, I like the fact that you added the image. It adds some life to the page.NinaGreen (talk) 19:10, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
I also like the additions Buckraeumer made to the box at the upper right.NinaGreen (talk) 20:33, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
This article needs more images to break up the monotonous stack of grey type. Nina, do you have a good picture of Anne Cecil's tomb effigy? I found one on the internet here but it is not very good. Ideally it would be a closeup of the head. With all the millions and millions of Oxfordians out there surely one of them has taken a good photograph of it. Tom Reedy (talk) 05:16, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Tom, I agree completely, and I really like the Whitehall image you added. I don't have a good picture of Anne Cecil's tomb effigy, but I'll ask if one of the millions has one. :-) There should be a good image of Anne Vavasour out there on the internet as well.NinaGreen (talk) 21:29, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
There are lots of images of Queen Elizabeth here, including the Armada portrait [1] NinaGreen (talk) 22:03, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
We could also add other images - examples of Oxford's handwriting; portraits of his children, for example. Paul B (talk) 22:52, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
I put in the Phoenix portrait (it's very high resolution if you click first on the picture and then once again) and the Vavasour for the moment. Here is the Wikimedia Commons page for Elizabeth. Buchraeumer (talk) 15:43, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
Why is Vavasour blue? I'm wondering if it isn't a bad file like the old Oxford portrait, which was yellow until I replaced it.
Also are there any pics of the child, Sir Edward Vere? This is one of those topics to which Oxfordians have contributed to scholarship, and there should be a page about him or at least a section, since he was a notable soldier.
There is also a black and white picture of Oxford holding the sword of state while acting in his hereditary role of Great Chamberlain. That should be in the article also. Tom Reedy (talk) 18:57, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
[edit] Oxford's Great Garden Property
Tom, thanks for adding the url for the Purnell book. I note your comment about original research, and am open to suggestions as to what might remove that concern.NinaGreen (talk) 21:55, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
Don't worry about it right now. We'll need to call in other reviewers to give us other perspectives when that time comes, but that's way in the future for now. Tom Reedy (talk) 00:54, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Tom, could you explain what you mean by 'call in other reviewers? This appears to be a Wikipedia policy about which I know nothing. I need to be filled in.NinaGreen (talk) 01:34, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
WP:PR Tom Reedy (talk) 05:16, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
In brief, Tom brings up the subject of putting the Edward de Vere article up for peer review to achieve FA status, and now he says it's not at all qualified. (And notice my expressions of praise and appreciation for Tom, Bishonen, to answer your question).NinaGreen (talk) 18:33, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Nina, there is no point to this page-filling at all. Tom said it's far from FA status. You reply by cutting and pasting a huge chunk of dialogue from another page in which he suggests that other reviewers can be called in "when that time comes, but that's way in the future for now." There is no contradiction here at all and in any case this is trivial and irrelevant. All you are doing is making this talk page unreadable. Paul B (talk) 18:39, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Paul, speaking of page-filling, why are you weighing in on this? Why not let Tom Reedy speak for himself? Tom brought the idea of submitting the Edward de Vere article for peer review up out of a clear blue sky. Let him explain why he did so on the Edward de Vere Talk, and why he has now reversed himself on the SAQ Talk page.NinaGreen (talk) 18:47, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
He has not reversed himself. The statement "that's way in the future for now" implies that much work needs to be done before the peer review. There's no other possible interpretation unless you think he believes we should just wait while some process of slow marination occurs. In any case nit-picking over what people say to find some slight possible inconsistency on a matter of no relevance implies nothing more than a need find fault to no useful purpose. Paul B (talk) 19:01, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Nina has a habit of jumping to conclusions from little or no data, such as her conclusions above that the Milward quote being from an unpublished biography based on the fact that she can't find it through her Google scholarship, or her assertion that I wanted to include those "lunatic fringe" quotes as refs for the article. Or, for that matter, that I intended to nominate the Edward de Vere article for FA status.
This is a big problem when trying to edit with her. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:19, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Tom, you've talked all around the question, but not answered it:
Why not let Tom Reedy speak for himself? Tom brought the idea of submitting the Edward de Vere article for peer review up out of a clear blue sky. Let him explain why he did so on the Edward de Vere Talk, and why he has now reversed himself on the SAQ Talk page.
Please show me where I ever suggested it as a possible or future candidate for FA status. And will you ever learn how to indent using right number of colons? As far as "out of a clear blue sky", I posted that link in response to your question, and I assumed you would read the page. If you did, you obviously didn't understand it. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:09, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Should anyone wonder why so much time and space is wasted on this Talk page? Tom brings up all kinds of things on his own initiative, and then refuses to answer direct questions about the things he himself has brought up. Tom made the claim that he could supply any number of quotes in which proponents of the authorship controversy were described as being the 'lunatic fringe'.
Which I did. Fourteen of them, all from WP:RS sources. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:09, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
But when Nishidani seized on the 2008 Milward quote Tom had supplied as an irrefutable example, and I brought up the fact that the quote couldn't be found anywhere, Tom refused to say where he had gotten it.
I'm tired of doing your research for you. I'm not planning to use it anyway, so who cares? You'll just have to take my word for it or find it. I thought you determined it was from an "unpublished (and unfinished?) online autobiography", since you stated that as a fact even though you haven't read it! Tom Reedy (talk) 22:09, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
As a result, no editor or administrator of this page can see the 2008 Milward quote in context, or knows its source. Tom brought up out of nowhere the idea that the Edward de Vere article should be submitted for peer review. But when I mentioned that in support of the fact that I'm a very productive editor (when Tom permits me to edit), Tom reversed himself, and now says the Edward de Vere article is 'far from FA quality', and refuses to explain the rationale for his reversal to editors and administrators of this page. We're all being forced to waste our time.NinaGreen (talk) 19:52, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
I have not reversed myself. Your standards are not mine nor Wikipedia's; the Edward de Vere article is nowhere near FA quality. It's undoubtedly good enough for your online version (which curiously shares a high percentage of verbatim passages from the Wikipedia article, that you have copyrighted) on your website that promotes Oxford-as-Shakespeare (which fact curiously hasn't caused you to recuse yourself from editing these pages as you have demanded I do on the basis of co-authoring one online essay), but it's not good enough for a Wikipedia featured article. It's too obsessively detailed for one thing, and has no shape for another. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:09, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, I'm not going to bother responding to your other points because you're just going round the same mulberry bush without answering anything,

Sorry, I thought for sure I answered one question, anyway, about me "pulling it out of the blue sky", by pointing out that you had asked me. The other part about submitting the article for FA and reversing myself I could not answer, because (as I pointed out) I never said such a thing so therefore never reversed myself. I'm also disappointed that you didn't address the fact that you haven't recused yourself from editing the SAQ article when you have more than a half-dozen times called for me to do so on this page and the Edward de Vere page. It seems to me that if I'm ineligible to edit because of co-authoring one essay with David Kathman 13 or 14 years ago, that your 30-some-odd years of promoting Oxford as the writer the works of Shakespeare, Robert Greene, Thomas Nashe, the Marprelate tracts, Edward III, Famous Victories of Henry V, A Yorkshire Tragedy, Miseries of Enforced Marriage, The Puritan, Sir John Oldcastle, The Merry Devil of Edmonton, the Langham letter, and most of the unattributed court poetry of the Elizabethan era, as well as publishing an Oxfordian newsletter, running the Oxfordian Authorship site, and hosting the private Oxfordian listserv Phaeton, should at least call for some type of disclaimer. It would be nice if you'd bother to reply to at least that inconsistency. Tom Reedy (talk) 05:43, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, you wrote:

Sorry, I thought for sure I answered one question, anyway, about me "pulling it out of the blue sky", by pointing out that you had asked me.

Nice try, Tom, but it didn't work. I didn't ask you anything other than what you meant when you brought the topic up out of nowhere. You suggested peer review for the Edward de Vere article, you praised the article and my work on it (as Bishonen himself very specifically pointed out in another message on this page), and now you've reversed yourself and are trashing the Edward de Vere article in every way you can think of. It's quite a game you're playing.

As for recusing myself, why should I? The reason I've suggested that you and Nishidani should recuse yourselves is that you've both openly admitted bias. You've called the authorship controversy 'a crank theory' and Nishidani has called it 'an ideological mania'. No Wikipedia editor should be editing a page on which he displays bias of that nature, and certainly no Wikipedia editor who displays such bias should control the editing of the page in question, as you do with this one. I'm not biased. I think there's something to the authorship controversy, but I'm open to evidence to the contrary, and I've certainly never called the mainstream position 'a crank theory' or an 'ideological mania', nor would I. I respect the position held by the other side. You don't, and you and Nishidani should recuse yourselves from editing this page for that reason.NinaGreen (talk) 16:10, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Nina, above you wrote, “In brief, Tom brings up the subject of putting the Edward de Vere article up for peer review to achieve FA status, and now he says it's not at all qualified.” You then wrote in response to Paul, “Tom brought the idea of submitting the Edward de Vere article for peer review up out of a clear blue sky. Let him explain why he did so on the Edward de Vere Talk, and why he has now reversed himself on the SAQ Talk page.”, thereby silently dropping the reference to FA status while still discussing it in context with my remark that the article was not FA quality, thereby confusedly conflating my statement that we can ask for a peer review with nominating it for FA status, a link which you had previously made explicit.
I repeat, I never said that it would be submitted as a featured article candidate; I only said we would in the future ask for peer review in order to improve the article. I never mentioned FA. And, if you read the context of that discussion that you reproduced above, you will see that I did so in response to your queries, not "pulling it out of the blue sky".
And why you think that my stating that the Oxford article is “far from FA status” is “trashing” it I have no idea. You seem to interpret plain language in a binary, black-and-white, praise-condemn manner, which makes it extremely hard to communicate via the written word, as you take a statement and run its meaning out to the furthest boundaries of meaning based on a hypercritical method of reading. Thereby Shapiro not using the word “fringe” = acceptance of SAQ as a minority position within academe, as well as many other such strained interpretations.
I find your reasoning specious as to your refusal to recuse yourself from editing while many times calling for me to do so. Bias is by definition unconscious and implies ignoring the truth of a claim based on facts and evidence, which is hardly my position but is intrinsic to the anti-Stratfordian arguments. Your use of the term would make the rejection of creationism by scientists an expression of bias instead of being based on evidence.
(Editors, please pardon my use of bolding to distinguish my replies in this gray sea of text.) Tom Reedy (talk) 17:35, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, you're talking a blue streak, but the plain fact of the matter is that you praised the article and my work on it (as indicated by Bishonen's repetition of your praise on this Talk page), and now you're trashing the article (see your recent comments on this page). Not only that, but you personally gave me your blessing on 24 November to write the entire Edward de Vere article. Here's your e-mail to me:

Nina, as far as I'm concerned you can rewrite the entire article and I'll just go my own way on articles I'm interested in. Just keep in mind you can't quote your own research and try to stay away from tendentious interpretations. I've got other things I want to do besides go round and round on this the way we have been. If you put together a bare-bones narrative of Oxford's life in some kind of chronological order that would be a good start. I'm sure enough people are keeping their eye on it that I don't need to stick around.
You might want to begin by creating an article on wardship (Wardship or Royal wardship) or expanding the section in Burghley's article (http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/William_Cecil,_1st_Baron_Burghley#Master_of_the_Court_of_Wards). That way you would have an article to link to so that you won't have to stop and explain all the details in the Oxford article. Also a section about Burghley's school could be added to his article. The way the Oxford article is now written it appears that he was the only student.
Also instead of making incremental changes, it might be better to write the entire article off-line and then drop it on the page in one fell swoop. That way you'd avoid a lot of time-wasting discussions over every edit and instead just have one big discussion. More likely someone will revert and then the discussions about the pros and the cons will take place, and at least your version would be the one up for discussion. If, as I suggested, you stay away from tendentious statements and limit the authorship to the section it now has, you'd have a good chance at having most of your edits accepted--much more so than the slow grind that usually results. I think you'd be surprised that most people will go along with your rewrite if you attempt to follow the guidelines, write neutrally, and stay away from the third rail of authorship.
Cheers,
Tom
PS. Also if you could delete about half the commas the grammarian in me would be grateful.
I wrote the article in chronological order as you'd suggested, didn't incorporate any of my own research (you refused to let me cite my article in Brief Chronicles for one crucial point, although there's no other accurate source on that point), used Wikipedia approved reliable sources, and stayed entirely away from interpretation. I didn't drop the entire article in at one fell swoop, as you'd suggested, but instead repeatedly asked for input on the Talk page, and got almost none from anyone other than the vigorous and endless opposition to the citation of my article in Brief Chronicles. Then, when the job was done, you praised the article. At the outset (see the e-mail) you said you weren't interested in working on the article, and when I'd finished the entire edit, you left a comment to the same effect, that you didn't have time to have any input on the article. And now you're trashing my work on this Talk page. And I'm not supposed to feel betrayed?
You also wrote:
I find your reasoning specious as to your refusal to recuse yourself from editing while many times calling for me to do so. Bias is by definition unconscious etc.
Everyone has some unconscious bias. Yours is overt, as evidence by your terming the authorship controversy 'a crank theory'.NinaGreen (talk) 18:32, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
I am becoming more and more puzzled about what your points are and finding your reasoning incoherent. You clearly ask for one thing and then switch the topic to another and bring in reams of text from past discussions to what purpose I cannot fathom. And now you're going on about betrayal?
I clearly stated in my comment above to which you took such umbrage that "The article is far from being FA quality, although it is a good compendium of raw material from which a good article could be refined with lots of work." That is hardly "trashing" it. I suggested a chronological arrangement as "a good start", not as a finished product that would qualify for FA status. I also gave you some good advice from my experience editing Wikipedia.
And recognising that the SAQ is a crank theory in no way precludes editing in a neutral fashion. To the contrary, it brings a certain amount of insight into the process that other editors seem to lack. To insist to the contrary is an egregious breach of WP:AGF. No one has made that accusation about you. To the contrary I welcomed your input. The problems we have had all stem from your misinterpretation of Wikipedia policy as well as what consensus means, but lately it seems the main problem has shifted to the defensive and myopic manner in which you engage with other editors and admins.
You'll have to excuse my presence for most of the rest of the day. I see no reason to spend more time in this conversation and I have other things to do. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:05, 31 December 2010 (UTC)


but I do note that you have said this:

It's undoubtedly good enough for your online version (which curiously shares a high percentage of verbatim passages from the Wikipedia article, that you have copyrighted) on your website that promotes Oxford-as-Shakespeare

Nothing curious about it at all, other than the fact that you're keeping such close tabs on my activities. After editing the Wikipedia article, I put my own expanded version of Oxford's biography online on my website with references to primary sources, to dozens of DNB articles, to my article in Brief Chronicles, and to Christopher Paul's articles in Brief Chronicles and The Oxfordian which I could not use in the Wikipedia article on Edward de Vere. Readers on the internet can use the version on my website to access the primary sources if they wish to.NinaGreen (talk) 23:17, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Hey, I single-handedly created the Anne Whateley page, the Abel Lefranc page and the Joseph C. Hart page. I also greatly expanded and rewrote the previously stubby James Wilmot page (as mentioned by Shapiro!) and the William Stanley, 6th Earl of Derby page, which was in a reet rubbish state. No one has ever praised me!! Boo hoooooo. Where are those grateful Derbyites? Paul B (talk) 17:44, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Bishonen, is this what Wikipedia administrators do - constantly berate an individual editor and encourage other editors and administrators to do the same? Perhaps you could point me to the Wikipedia policy which covers that.NinaGreen (talk) 17:49, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry my input makes that impression. By my count I've made ten edits to this page in the past month, mostly in the course of conversing with Zweigenbaum. Only three of those posts have had anything at all to do with you. I've edited the Oxford page four times, two of them to do with you. And I have posted three times on your own talkpage. I'm also sorry to see you reply so evasively, addressing none of my points or questions. Bishonen | talk 21:30, 30 December 2010 (UTC).
Bishonen, the other day you berated me on my Talk page on a false allegation that I had posted 21 times to this Talk page on the previous day and wanted me to agree to a voluntary ban. Today you started this new section solely for the purpose of berating me. Why would I not get 'that impression'?NinaGreen (talk) 23:06, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
The history of this talk page shows that NinaGreen made 21 edits on 27 December 2010. At contributors we see that Tom Reedy has made 697 edits over the last 3 years, with an average of 39 hours between posts. NinaGreen has made 176 edits in the last 15 days, with an average of 2 hours between posts. This is not a forum: it is a place for collaboration, and typos and clumsy expressions do not need to be corrected. Other editors want to review changes that have occurred to the discussion, and it is unhelpful when someone frequently edits the page. The open nature and AGF attitude of Wikipedia are being misused to make this page a forum. Johnuniq (talk) 01:03, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Johnuniq, are you deliberately trying to be misleading? Count the number of actual messages by me on the page. What you're looking at are a very large number of minor edits such as fixing typos, changing a word in the original message etc. Can we get real here?NinaGreen (talk) 02:10, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Edits on 27 December 2010

NinaGreen has questioned exactly what "The history of this talk page shows that NinaGreen made 21 edits on 27 December 2010" meant. Yes, there were not 21 separate posts; there were 21 edits. Making, on average, one edit to this talk page every two hours since arriving here (contributors) is not helpful to other editors. We are discussing an article, not how to right the wrongs of the world.

Since the matter has been raised a couple of times, here are the 21 diffs in question. Each diff is an edit to Talk:Shakespeare authorship question by NinaGreen (talk · contribs) on 27 December 2010 (UTC times shown, then +/− number of characters).

Sorry to dump this here, but we will need to calm the situation on this page down fairly soon. Johnuniq (talk) 09:00, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Johnuniq, you wrote:
Yes, there were not 21 separate posts
Exactly. So how many separate posts were there? Please advise. And please clarify whether this alleged violation of Wikipedia policy is about separate posts, or about correcting typos. If the latter, can you and Bishonen refer me to the Wikipedia policy which forbids going back into a posting and correcting typos? I think we'd all like to be enlightened by you and Bishonen on that point.NinaGreen (talk) 15:49, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
There were 21 edits, just like he said. Again your trying to accuse people of providing false information when they did not and you know they did not. Please stop dfilling this page with this nonsense. It doesn't freaking matter exactly how many posts there were. The point remains the same. Lots of them were like this, demands for answers to utterly irrelevant questions while ignoring the main point. Paul B (talk) 16:05, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Paul, and as I said, would you, Johnuniq and Bishonen just please review for all of us the Wikipedia policy which forbids editors from going into a posting to correct typos on the ground that it will constitute too many edits? I'm sure we'd all like to be enlightened as that policy.NinaGreen (talk) 16:13, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
See WP:PREVIEW. You expect me to "review" that..? Why? Blue text means it's a link. You're supposed to click on it and then read. Naturally, it's an appeal for consideration for others, not a "policy". "Forbidding" editors from acting inconsiderately is altogether very rare; it's not the wikipedia culture. We try to persuade. Bishonen | talk 17:12, 31 December 2010 (UTC).
I think you do need to review it. I can't see anything in Wikipedia policy which says that going into a posting to fix typos and/or add a few words of clarification constitutes lack of consideration for others. And even apart from Wikipedia policy or Wikipedia persuasion, or whatever else you might want to call it says, plain common sense says that going into a posting to fix typos and/or add a few words of clarification CONSTITUTES consideration for others.NinaGreen (talk) 18:15, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Just for the record, I count 8 actual messages from me on 27 December, 4 from Tom, 2 from Paul, 2 from Nishidani, and 1 from John. So that's 8 from me, and 9 from Tom, Paul, Nishidani and John directed TO ME and making allegations AGAINST ME to which I was forced to respond. They're all piling onto me, making allegations and demanding answers to their questions, and when I answer their questions or respond to their unfounded allegations, they complain to administrators that I'm posting too much (or rather, not that I've posted too many actual messages, but that I've gone into my messages too many times to fix typos or add a few words of clarification, a procedure which has inconvenienced them in a way yet to be explained!).NinaGreen (talk) 19:08, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Blue text means it's a link. You're supposed to click on it and then read. Bishonen | talk 19:55, 31 December 2010 (UTC).

An Interesting Game Plan

There's an interesting game going on here. Editors and administrators of this page are all piling on, asking me question after question, and forcing me to respond to them, and then claiming that I'm violating Wikipedia policy by posting too frequently, all with an obvious objective in mind which I think anyone reading this page is clever enough to figure out without my spelling it out. And while this interesting game is being played out by the editors and administrators, my suggested revision for the lede paragraphs is just sitting there, totally ignored by the same editors and administrators.NinaGreen (talk) 16:19, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

"my suggested revision for the lede paragraphs is just sitting there, totally ignored by the same editors and administrators". Not true. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:15, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Please don't comment on what people have "in mind" but only on their edits. See the policy (yes, an actual policy) No personal attacks, whose nutshell version is "Comment on the content, not on the contributor." Please remove or (preferably) strike out the personal attacks on the editors of this page from your post. (I realise that won't leave much, but that's your problem. Feel free to remove the whole comment.) Bishonen | talk 17:34, 31 December 2010 (UTC).
Bishonen, is there a double standard here? The comment by Tom Reedy which I quoted was a personal attack on me. See Tom's personal attack on me higher up on this page, where he wrote:
You believe in a crank theory that Oxford wrote Shakespeare based on no evidence whatsoever except your imagination.

Are you threatening to block me (see your comment on my Talk page) for Tom's personal attack on me?

NinaGreen (talk) 18:06, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

You might want to read WP:NPA to make sure you grasp what constitutes a PA. I see you haven't refactored your post yet. Please do so now. Bishonen | talk 19:52, 31 December 2010 (UTC).
Bishonen, which part of my statement above is not true? I'm willing to remove whatever isn't true. In order to help me determine which part of the statement isn't true, could you please let us all know how you became involved in this false implication that I posted 21 different messages on 27 December? Did another editor bring that false implication to your attention? If so, who was that editor? And if no other editor brought it to your attention, why did you leave a message on my Talk page trying to force me to agree to a voluntary ban without first checking to see whether the false implication that I posted 21 different messages on 27 December was true?154.5.200.46 (talk) 20:35, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Oops! Forgot to log in before signing the posting. Signing it now will count as another edit.:-)NinaGreen (talk) 20:41, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
What WP policy? I am aware that Bishonen has suggested that you agree to a voluntary reduction on the quantity of the content and amount of responses you make on these and related talkpages. Have you made such a commitment? Have you received a warning regarding Wikipedia:Tendentious editing, which is perhaps the one Wikipedia:Guideline I can envisage that may pertain to any issues with the quantity of the comments you make. My understanding that you have not made any commitment, nor were you warned until that immediately above. It may be argued that your comments above might example an unfortunate tendency - as I have come to see it - in your responses, to conflate what has been said into a polemic by which you ignore the content of the message (in this case, concisely state your case on a subject once and acknowledge any response in your further posts) and instead substitute your own unilateral interpretation upon the intent. This is unfortunate; you are being asked to limit your comments to that which may be properly addressed and have taken these as examples by which attempts are being made to restrict or remove your ability to do so. It would be better to concentrate upon the issues raised on these pages regarding the article, than to indulge in unhelpful speculation. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:00, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
LessHeard, thanks for your input. Here's the solution to the problem. As I pointed out in the section immediately above this, Tom, Paul, Nishidani,and John all made comments either specifically directed to me or specifically about me on 27 December (9 of their postings to 8 of mine), and when I responded, they complained that I was posting too much. Their comments were not general comments on the content of the SAQ article. They were comments specifically directed to me or made about me. So the answer to this problem is simple. If Tom, Paul, Nishidani and John don't want me to respond to their questions and allegations, they can just stop making them. The solution lies with them. We could then get on with addressing something substantive for a change, such as my suggested revision to the lede, which complies fully (so far as I can see) with WP:LEDE, and which would have the salutary advantage of helping to reduce the very long and wordy SAQ article somewhat.NinaGreen (talk) 21:14, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
  • LessHeard, there is in fact an elaborate warning about tendentious editing on Nina's page. I posted it there as early as 12 December, mentioning possible blocks and offering many a policy, guideline and essay, but, in particular, attempting reasonable argument. I have been somewhat worn down since then. Bishonen | talk 21:27, 31 December 2010 (UTC).
  • Nina, I decline to be pulled down into the quicksand your questions above point me to. What a way to spend New Year's Eve that would be..! "True" and "false" are not categories that apply to your comments on people's motives, because you don't know their motives. You're not in their heads. You can't read their thoughts. You can only read what they have put on the page, and therefore you only get to comment on that. Comment civilly, please. Click on the blue (WP:NPA) and read how that works. Then remove all attacks. What's so hard? Bishonen | talk 21:27, 31 December 2010 (UTC).

LessHeard, I should have responded to your comment about the specious Tendentious Editing claim, which was simply the current complaint by the same people in a different guise. There is nothing about any of my editing which meets the Wikipedia definition of Tendentious Editing, and no examples which fit the definition were given. It was merely claimed that I was being repetitious, just as it is now being claimed that I post too much. And the cause was the same then as it is now. Tom, Paul and Nishidani all pile on, asking questions and making allegations, all directly specifically to me and at me, and when I reply, they complain to an administrator that I'm being repetitious or posting too much. The solution remains the same. Tom, Paul, Nishidani and John can limit their own comments. I'll then have nothing to which I'm forced to respond, and lo and behold, I won't be posting as much. And as I said, I hope we can then get on to consideration of my suggested revision to the lede of the SAQ article. And please note that both Tom and Nishidani are still trying to egg me on to reply to their questions in a new section entitled Peter Milward Redux, and I'm ignoring them (and speaking of repetitiousness, Tom's comment about colons is the umpteenth he has made on that point). NinaGreen (talk) 21:36, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Peter Milward redux

They're all piling onto me, making allegations and demanding answers to their questions, and when I answer their questions or respond to their unfounded allegations, they complain to administrators that I'm posting too much

  1. I'm not piling onto you
  2. I am not here making allegations
  3. I am not 'demanding' an answer, but seeking simple clarity.
  4. I have not complained to administrators.
  5. I am not 'they'.
  6. Could you answer my question, within the day. A simple 'yes' or 'no' would be helpful. I have relocated my question to avoid it being lost and ignored, as it was when I first raised it. Nishidani (talk) 22:17, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Nina, I recommend you don't even bother answering this, as much as I would love to read your reply. (As I would love, someday, under different circumstances, to read your reply to Tom Reedy's literary quote somewhere here about 'good and evil,' etc.) This is because this is a trap. If you review carefully this guy above's shrewd tactics with Admins during the whole process of banning Smatprt from Wikipedia, you'll see that he's a smart and experienced wikilawyer and litigator. He also knows how to pose as a simple (almost naive) unbiased or uninterested observer when this suits his strategic objectives. Nobody has time for that now, of course, as other "legal" threats loom, but this guy was one of the main orchestrators of that unfair outcome, in my view. warshytalk 22:38, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
Nina complains that I for one ignored her suggested revision. Since she made it I have focused on nothing else.

'And while this interesting game is being played out by the editors and administrators, my suggested revision for the lede paragraphs is just sitting there, totally ignored by the same editors and administrators.'

Since my comments (on 'Shakespearean establishment' and 'the public' and on her request to 'whittle down' the fringe lunacy list) were ignored, I have reposted the gist of the most important below, and await a straightforward answer. It bears precisely on her challenge to the lead, and therefore, on her own proposed version. If there are any traps here, they of course should be shut, by those who open them. Please don't interrupt.Nishidani (talk) 22:53, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Queries are put, answered, ignored and forgotten. A quite precise stipulation of evidence required to make a generalization was formulated, Nina. I thought Milward answered all of your conditions. Before going ahead, I'd like to hear from you. Nina, do you accept that Milward is part of the 'Shakespearean establishment'? (Nishidani (talk) 22:08, 31 December 2010 (UTC))

Since this posting is unsigned, I'm not sure whom I'm addressing. Could the author of the posting please sign it?NinaGreen (talk) 15:51, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
The edit history shows that Nishidani began this section at 02:03, 31 December 2010. And please remember only one colon per added comment to indent. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:09, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Date is wrong for the Internet Section

Under "Television, magazines, and the Internet", the date given for "Uncovering Shakespeare: an Update" is obviously wrong: it should be 1992, not 1962. (sorry, wasn't sure how or where to enter this correction) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blubro (talk • contribs) 02:55, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the report. When we start editing the article again, someone should fix this (ref), unless an admin feels like taking this as an {{edit protected}} request for Shakespeare authorship question#Television, magazines, and the Internet and change "This was followed in 1962" to "This was followed in 1992"). Johnuniq (talk) 03:51, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Happy New Year to all! May 2011 bring you health, prosperity and happiness!NinaGreen (talk) 17:16, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

WP alternative views template is useless

Three weeks ago I asked for an assessment from the Wikipedia:WikiProject Alternative Views, with no response. Apparently that project is moribund. I left another message today proposing that the project's template be deleted from this talkpage as it is meaningless. Maybe that will wake somebody up, but I doubt it, given that the talk page appears to have been abandoned for quite some time. Is there any reason to keep such a fossil appendage to this page? I don't really care one way or another, it's just that when things become useless they clutter up the place, much like outdated textbooks that people hold on to for decades. Tom Reedy (talk) 20:08, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I have added a proposal that the project be removed from three pages because it is unmaintained, see WT:WikiProject Alternative Views#Assessment?. Johnuniq (talk) 00:17, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Request for NPOV Review on Shakespeare Authorship Question article by Editors Who Are Astute about Neutrality Problems

I have made a request for review of our neutrality problems with the neutrality Board. The extensive conflict and communication gaps do not show promise of resolution. Happy New Year! Zweigenbaum (talk) 01:18, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Here's your problem: "antagonism to the authorship debate from within the profession is so great that it would be as difficult for a professed Oxfordian to be hired in the first place, much less gain tenure, as for a professed creationist to be hired or gain tenure"
That admits a level of hostility which, in human relations, is guaranteed to produce irrationality in debate, regardless of whether the arguments against Shakespeare being the author of those works which are in his name has any merit or not. And, this particular level of antagonism has absolute control of the reliable sources per Wikipedia's RS policy. Thus, you're screwed if you want anything but a description of the debate based on RS. And a description based on RS is going to dismiss the minority view rather thoroughly. The edits you link to at the noticeboard, such as your removing "argument" in favor of "hypothesis" were obviously intended to give greater weight, greater credibility, to the minority viewpoint, and so were reverted. Here's my suggestion, without having gone over the talk page: list any particular text which is in question here, and give a summary of the debate in specific terms. Reading over the lead and first few sections, I didn't detect any major problems, excluding silliness such as "The Shakespeare canon is universally believed to be of the highest artistic and literary quality" which I'm here to inform you is patent nonsense no matter how "well sourced" it is :P. So you need to give a tutorial for editors new to the issues here. BE——Critical__Talk 01:50, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm pleased that you're trying to learn the ropes around Wikipedia, Zweigenbaum. It's customary to provide a link to the discussion, so here it is: [4]. The only comment I feel obliged to make is to explain the reason for the voluminous quotations in the references, which I will do. Tom Reedy (talk) 03:22, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

FA proposal

In my opinion, one of the best ways to determine if the article actually suffers from WP:NPOV problems would be to go ahead and nominate it for WP:FA status. The reviewers have no ax to grind and are more qualified to judge neutrality issues than anybody, since they routinely review articles for accuracy, neutrality, completeness, and style according to Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. With that in mind, I propose the article go forward to a formal FA review. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:37, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

GA toolbox
Reviewing
Check the toolbox to the side to fix small stuff. Wrad (talk) 19:21, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Is it not possible to shorten it first, Tom? To move more of it out to separate articles? If you put it on FAC as is, I think the reviewers may feel you're asking a lot. FAC resources are stretched very thin as it is. Bishonen | talk 20:17, 1 January 2011 (UTC).

Bishonen, I agree with you that the article is too long. I've dropped my new lede paragraph into the article. It complies with WP:LEDE, shortens the article, and because it's brief and focussed, invites the reader to read on, which is one of the objectives of a lede as stated in WP:LEDE. I suggest that you not allow it to be reverted until all editors on this page have had an opportunity to put forward their views as to whether it's an improvement to the article, and more likely to have the article eventually accepted for FA status.NinaGreen (talk) 17:40, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Bishonen, would you put my lede paragraph back and leave it in place for a few days? My lede paragraph, because it's brief and focussed, makes the overview and the images pop, and invites the reader to read on, which is one of the primary goals of a lede according to WP:LEDE. The old lede is wordy and uninviting, and loses any potential readers in a welter of words, turning them off. And there's nothing in the wordy and redundant old lede which is not comprised in the new lede and covered in extenso elsewhere in the article. Let's get on with improving the article.NinaGreen (talk) 19:30, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

The article is well under the size where splitting is necessary. See WP:Article_size#A_rule_of_thumb. That page also states that "Articles of about 200 KB (~30 pages) are not uncommon given that many topics require depth and detail, but it's typical that articles of such size get split into two or more sub-articles." In any case, your lede has not been discussed, and it does not meet the criteria for a good lede. I'm not going to accept your invitation to edit war with you, because I doubt your version will stay for very long anyway. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:59, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I stripped out the images, refs and external links and the page is 71 kb, well within the recommended range for comprehensive overview articles. I know they're overworked, but it's not like it has to be reviewed within any certain time frame, and I doubt there will ever come a time when the FA reviewers are not busy. Tom Reedy (talk) 21:27, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm sure you're aware of this already, but there are two citation needed tags that should be taken care of. Wrad (talk) 21:38, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, that and a few other minor things, but I wanted to start a discussion on it since I think it's knocking on the door of FA quality, if not already sitting in the lounger watching TV and having a beer. One question: as far as the Google books links, most of them weren't consulted for the cited statements, the actual physical book was used and the Google book link provided merely as a convenience to the reader. Do those still need retrieval dates? And what exactly is the dashboard for? Tom Reedy (talk) 23:50, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
The dashboard shows the article's significant contributors. At FAC, reviewers will be concerned to know that these editors generally are involved and supporting the FAC nom. I don't think you'll need retrieval dates for google books links that are intended more for convenience. Wrad (talk) 00:08, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Well, two of them are topic-banned, and all but maybe two of the others are probably OK with it. IIRC when we took the Shakespeare page to FA that was pretty much the case then, too. Tom Reedy (talk) 00:15, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Lede 2

I reverted Nina's replacement of the lede because major changes such as these need to be discussed. Several editors have responded to her proposal above but she has not responded to their queries. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:52, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I reverted as well. I was mostly okay with her proposal, but I thought she was just going to change the first paragraph, not the entire lede. More discussion is needed. Wrad (talk) 17:59, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
No, that was supposed to replace the entire lede. Wrad, Nishidani, Johnuniq, and I have asked questions above (here and here and here), but she hasn't responded, being warned off by warshy that they are a trap. One problem is that they are all over the place and interspersed with complaints about neutrality, admin injustices, etc. Tom Reedy (talk) 18:04, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Reasons For Deleting Jargon Statement

I've deleted the statement immediately under the lede which referred to the terms Stratfordian and anti-Stratfordian on these grounds:

(1) The article needs to be shortened. (2) The statement is redundant; readers can easily figure the terms out for themselves. (3) The term 'jargon' is not neutral. (4) The statement introduces a topic (Shakespeare of Stratford as the PRIMARY, not the SOLE, author of the canon) which is not covered in the lede. NinaGreen (talk) 19:54, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Here's the relevant definition of 'jargon' from the online OED, to which I subscribe. It's definitely not a neutral term:

6. Applied contemptuously to any mode of speech abounding in unfamiliar terms, or peculiar to a particular set of persons, as the language of scholars or philosophers, the terminology of a science or art, or the cant of a class, sect, trade, or profession.

All the other reasons mentioned still apply.NinaGreen (talk) 22:07, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Nina, this is obtuse. That you happen to subscribe to the 6th listed sense of a word in the OED does not make that its primary sense. You're arguing semantics while insisting on your own definitions. This is obstructive rather than constructive. Please stop. --Xover (talk) 22:37, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I went ahead and changed it to "terminology". Caesar's wife and all that. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:53, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Let's be very clear. Tom did not change it because of 'Caesar's wife and all that'. Anyone who subscribes to the online OED can check for himself that there is no other meaning for 'jargon' listed which is applicable to the passage in question, and that the definition I quoted establishes that the word 'jargon' is a contemptuous term.NinaGreen (talk) 23:35, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

You need to stop telling me why I did things; I didn't have to change it at all. I don't subscribe to the online OED. How about posting the other five definitions, or at least the primary definition? I have never heard of "jargon" being considered a derogatory term. As I said earlier (which thanks to your top posting is now below this message), if you have time for this surely you have time to answer the questions put to you about the lede. Tom Reedy (talk) 01:30, 4 January 2011 (UTC)


Why is "jargon" not neutral? I have never heard of such, please explain. Jargon is terminology which is especially defined in relationship to a specific activity, profession, group, or event.
Nobody is arguing that Shakespeare did not collaborate, and in fact the article contains several examples, which is the reason for "primary" instead of "sole".
If you have time for this surely you have time to answer the questions put to you about the lede. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:59, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I am not prepared to edit war on this or any other topic. I'll not be reverting anything else. I suggest you discuss major changes on the talk page before introducing them in the article. Tom Reedy (talk) 20:02, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Nina, nothing is being resolved by this. I would suggest resolving the lede issue before digging up other things, otherwise what is the point? The goal should be resolution, here. Also, just because an admin said the article is too long doesn't make it so. Admins are not gods around here. There needs to be discussion and consensus on that point, and there has been discussion, as I'm sure you're aware, and no real consensus was reached, so it makes no sense to start shortening the article quite yet. Wrad (talk) 20:23, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Characters of Shakespear's Plays, an article about one book, is longer than the SAQ article. Including images, references, etc, the SAQ article is the 969th longest article on Wikipedia. Grade II listed buildings in Brighton and Hove: C–D is the 881st; Dingo (dog) is 807th; ‎Henry VI, Part 3 is 498th; and list of fictional characters in the television series Heroes, the Heroes graphic novels, and the Heroes webisodes is 90th, at 233 kb, so a bit of proportion is needed here.
The length of the SAQ article, when images, refs, external links, etc. are stripped out is 71 kb. With all that it is 138 kb. Given the complicated nature of the topic, I think it is remarkable that it is as short as it is. And what, exactly, would be deleted anyway, that wouldn't damage its coverage? Tom Reedy (talk) 21:11, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Reasons For Deleting Overview Section

I've deleted the Overview section for the following reasons:

(1) The article needs to be shortened. (2) The organization of the article needs to be tightened up. (3) No Wikipedia article should need an overview. (4) The material is either redundant, or belongs in the anti-Stratfordian argument section.

A great deal of work needs to be done on this wordy, overly lengthy and poorly-organized article. We need to identify areas such as this where changes can be made rather than arguing endlessly over one specific change or other.NinaGreen (talk) 22:16, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Nina, might I suggest establishing a consensus that the article actually needs to be shortened before deleting things left and right? All of this work will be a waste of time for you otherwise. Wrad (talk) 22:20, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
(1) As Wrad said, you need to establish a consensus that the article needs to be shortened. I have given several reasons why it is not too long.
(2) What do you mean, "tightened up"? It's already pretty tight as far as I can see. Can you give some examples of bloat?
(3) Why should there not be an overview? That section was comprised of several subsections before it was merged and eventually became what it is today.
(4) How is it redundant? It gives a general overview of the main issues involved without detailing the specific arguments, which follow that section.
I suggest you solicit other opinions about how "wordy, overly lengthy and poorly-organized" the article is before making sweeping edits such as you have been doing.
One commenter at the peer review said "Lead looks good and seems to comply with rules; however, the many footnotes might raise objections. On the other hand, this being a controversial subject, it is probably a good idea to present much of the case at the start ... Very short paragraphs, especially one- or two-sentence paragraphs like the first in Unearthing proofs are discouraged. Quite a number might perhaps be combined ... I think the article is especially engaging in the earlier-middle parts and easy to understand for the non-specialist reader, although it gets a bit harder in the later part, especially in Bacon; but that's presumably because of the weird theories."
Another said "Lead is appropriately broad in scope, but reads as long-winded because of the consistently long sentence length. Consider splitting a few sentences to increase accessibility ... You repeat a couple of points a few times, including the coat-of-arms and "This Star of England" ... I echo the above commenter's point about one-sentence paragraphs."
Those comments are from experienced reviewers and are a long way from your assessment. You need to provide specifics instead of vague generalisations. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:49, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Talkpage chronology

It's helpful to keep discussion threads chronological, people. Seriously. A very short remark which needs no answer can be inserted to address a particular point, without feeling too much like an interruption. (Little jokes at ANI often are.) Otherwise, please don't top post. It makes it difficult for other editors to place their replies to you, and soon the timestamps will be all over the place—see for instance the messy section "FA proposal"— and the whole thread is impossible to untangle. Just a tip. Bishonen | talk 23:50, 3 January 2011 (UTC).

Edit warring and the lede

  • Nina, you are edit warring and are likely to be blocked if you continue.
  • Your edit summary "An administrator has said the article needs to be shortened, which this edit accomplishes, as well as fulfilling WP:LEDE and providing needed focus."[5] shows some misunderstanding. An administrator (I presume that refers to me) is just an editor in this context; my views on the length of the article are not of special value in relation to those of other experienced contributors. And did I even say or imply that the article "needs" to be shortened? No, I believe I put it more courteously and tentatively. As for the length of the lede, please read the section of WP:LEDE entitled Length, which states that the lede needs to be proportionate in length to the article as a whole. This long article needs to be introduced by several paragraphs. The old lede was about right. Bishonen | talk 23:50, 3 January 2011 (UTC).

Warning From Bishonen

Bishonen has placed the following warning on my Talk page:

WP:3RR warning
Nina, you are in violation of the 3RR rule. Stop reverting Shakespeare authorship question immediately or you will be blocked. Bishonen | talk 22:54, 3 January 2011 (UTC).

Two points. Firstly, it is my edits which are being reverted. I've made changes which meet Wikipedia guidelines and which improve an overly lengthy and poorly-organized article (what is the History section doing in the middle of the article, as an example of poor organization?). I can't see how I'm in violation of the 3RR rule when in every case I made the initial edit, and others reverted it.

Secondly, I've asked Bishonen to let my suggested lede paragraph be left in the article for a few days so editors and administrators can assess its visual impact, which is a great improvement for the reasons I've expressed elsewhere on this page and won't repeat here. Bishonen has not responded to that request, but has instead put a warning on my Talk page, again claiming I'm in violation of Wikipedia policies when I'm not in violation (as happened with his earlier warning about Tendentious Editing when I'd done nothing which constitutes Tendentious Editing since I was merely discussion matters on the Talk page for the article. At the same time, Bishonen has ignored clear example of Tendentious Editing on Tom Reedy's part (refusing to provide the source for the Milward citation). What's going on here?NinaGreen (talk) 23:28, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

What's going on is that you're not editing to consensus, removing cited material, and not engaging with the other editors on the talk page. Tom Reedy (talk) 23:36, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Reverting that many times is always against the rules except in cases of clear vandalism. It seriously hurts editors' ability to talk things out. Wrad (talk) 23:37, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
One point. If you can't see how you're in violation of the 3RR rule, please click on the blue and read. 3RR is one of the very few bright-line rules on Wikipedia: violate it and you get blocked. Yes, I saw you asked me above to use my mighty admin power to keep your version of the lede in the article. Please take it on board that admins don't have that kind of power, as I have mentioned before (on request): "As far as content is concerned, an admin is merely another editor. They'll be a trusted and usually experienced editor, which is a better reason to listen to their advice than the adminship per se." [6].) I hope I don't sound unfriendly, but I'm rather busy and stressed IRL, and I can't necessarily undertake to answer everything at all times, especially not when it seems unproductive. Bishonen | talk 01:17, 4 January 2011 (UTC).

Bishonen, the plain language of the section to which you referred me indicates that it's the second editor who performs a revert, not the first. I edited the article several times, deleting superfluous and repetitious material in accordance with your statement on this page that the article needed to be shortened, and it was my edit, in every instance, which was instantly reverted before anyone even had a chance to look at it. Also, you haven't addressed my question as to why you falsely accused me of Tendentious Editing when the examples you gave had nothing to do with editing at all, while you ignored Tom's very specific instance of actual Tendentious Editing, his refusal to provide the Milward citation. Nor have you answered my earlier question about how you became involved in trying to force me to accept a voluntary ban on the false implication that I had posted 21 actual messages on 27 December. If you are as busy and stressed as you suggest, perhaps you could stop wasting time accusing me of violations of Wikipedia policy which I haven't committed, and focus instead on actual violations by others such as the example I've given of Tom's Tendentious Editing or Tom's ad hominem attack on my alleged 'Google scholarship'. I'm doing my utmost to follow Wikipedia policy, and I don't welcome being regularly falsely accused by an administrator of not following Wikipedia policy.NinaGreen (talk) 03:03, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

you ignored Tom's very specific instance of actual Tendentious Editing, his refusal to provide the Milward citation

Actually Nina, I will be quite happy to provide this, which is very easy to find, if you are familiar with Milward's work published in 2008 (do you need any more than this heavy-handed hint?), when you begin to engage seriously with the question I asked you earlier. Do you accept Milward qualifies for the criteria you set, as a contemporary member of 'the Shakespearean establishment'? This is the third time I have been forced to ask you to engage me on this. Nishidani (talk) 04:43, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Actually, Nishidani, I have the citation. But that doesn't absolve Bishonen from ignoring Tom Reedy's violation of Wikipedia's Tendentious Editing policy in refusing to provide the citation, nor your violation of the Wikipedia policy either.NinaGreen (talk) 04:51, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
You have the citation at hand, ignore it, refuse to answer my question concerning it, and waste time trying to turn something else into a ban on a good editor? Answer my question, you've had a week to meditate on how to reply to a straightforward query, which I keep having to repeat. Thank you Nishidani (talk) 05:19, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Nina, I suggest you actually read Wikipedia:Tendentious editing before slinging around accusations. In fact, it appears that all the common tendentious behaviours listed in that article - Edit warring, Disruptive editing, What Wikipedia is not, Gaming the system / Abuse of process, Wikilawyering, Disruption to make a point, "I didn't hear that" — describe your behaviour on these pages, not mine. Tendentious editing involves editing. I have made no edit using the Milward quotation, nor do I intend to. I produced those "lunatic fringe" quotations at your request, not to include them in the article. Any one of them is sufficient to make my point about the strong feelings the academy holds about the SAQ; Milward has no special standing. Your insistence that only the comments of a narrow subsection of scholars as defined by you ("a Ph.D., has to be the literature of the Elizabethan and early Jacobean period") is specious in the extreme, especially in the light of the qualifications of the leading anti-Stratfordians. I look back over this page and it is filled with time-wasting minutia like this, brought up only, it appears, to delay and disrupt the process. Of all of the thousands of words you have written here and the thousands of words of replies, very little useful has been said. So far you've been nothing but a big waste of time. Tom Reedy (talk) 12:49, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
@NinaGreen: You should not raise issues like this here. Ask at your talk page, or at User talk:Bishonen, or if you think an administrator has mistakenly targeted you, ask for help at WP:ANI. However, Bishonen was correct because on 3 January 2011, NinaGreen made these edits (UTC times shown):
This is not the page to discuss WP:3RR, but since the issue has been questioned it was important to present the evidence. Johnuniq (talk) 11:21, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Johnuniq, you're right. I hadn't looked at the 3RR rule before doing my editing yesterday, and I incorrectly remembered it as 3 reverts per item, rather than per page, and I did do 4 reverts on three separate items. However in each case my 3 original edits were instantly reverted by Tom, Xover and you before anyone had even had a chance to look at or discuss them, even though I immediately put my edits up for discussion on this Talk page. So all that's happening is a variation of the stonewalling that's been going on endlessly on this Talk page. In the past, I've suggested edits without actually making them, and they were instantly rejected by Tom. Yesterday I actually made some edits, and they were instantly rejected and reverted by Tom, Xover and you. It's unreasonable of Tom, Xover and you not to permit an edit to remain in place while it's under discussion. This is particularly so of my edit of the lede because the my shortened lede allows the Table of Contents and the images to pop and make the article inviting to a potential readers whereas the current lede loses the potential reader in a welter of words. So how about doing something productive towards the improvement of the article and lending your support to the suggestion that my edits should not be instantly reverted by Tom, Xover and you.NinaGreen (talk) 17:52, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Tom's Censorship Of The Peer Review Page

Not content with ownership of the SAQ article, Tom has now started censoring comments on the Peer Review page. Earlier I posted this comment here and on the Peer Review page to inform editors on the latter as to Tom's ownership of the SAQ article and his refusal to allow anyone else to edit it:

Tom, I can't recall a single topic which has been brought up on this Talk page to any purpose. The reason for that is that you control the article, contrary to Wikipedia policy, and you will not allow a syllable of it to be altered without your express consent, which you never grant. Nor will you allow a single edit by anyone other than yourself to stand without instantly reverting it. You have admitted that you are biased, and have even gone so far as to claim that your bias brings a useful perspective to the article. No editor of this page who is among your close group of associates has ever objected in the slightest to any of this, and no administrator has intervened in any way to prevent it from continuing. That's an objective view of the status quo with respect to the SAQ article. It is far from Wikipedia's intent and Wikipedia's policies.

When I went to the Peer Review page just now, I found that Tom had deleted my comment, thus censoring what editors of the Peer Review page are allowed to see concerning the article they are supposed to be peer reviewing.NinaGreen (talk) 23:01, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I suggest you cease your personal attacks and read WP:NPA, which states that "Derogatory comments about another contributor may be removed by any editor." Tom Reedy (talk) 00:21, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Nina, I've lost count of the number of times you have made generic complaints about Tom Reedy, and allowed these whinges to disrupt what is an attempt to have a complex review by wiki collaborators on both the content and technical side of the SAQ article as it is being readied for FA. The whole history of this article is that some of its major editors appeared to use it as a doctrinal playground to showcase their private perspective on the question, showed no interest in mastering both the technical literature nor the policies regarding wikipedia articles aspiring to quality review. That ended several months ago. This is not the place to try and challenge the whole process and throw us back into the chaos that existed here I year ago, when several editors for the de Verean position kept up a daily barrage that hamstrung the process of improving the article.
Specifically, that Peer Review page is for specific input, on policy and criteria for the article as it slowly proceeds to FA process. It is not a page for complaining about people. To do so is disruptive, though, since you seem not to understand wikipedia policies very well, no doubt inadvertent. So drop it. It's a New year, and resolutions about putting the past behind us and focusing on productive specific suggestions would be appreciated.Nishidani (talk) 23:35, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
@NinaGreen: per WP:DR, you must follow certain procedures when you think you are in a dispute. If you think an editor is breaching good behavior, report it at WP:WQA. If you are having trouble with an administrator or a group of other editors, report it at WP:ANI. Both procedures are easy. Anyone is welcome to report an issue at WP:WQA or WP:ANI: just treat it like a talk page and click "new section", insert a subject and message plus signature. Use show preview, then save. Then you need to inform the other user by adding a new section at their talk page: subject = Notice and message = {{subst:WQA-notice}} ~~~~ (for WQA) or {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ (for ANI).
WQA is to obtain opinions from independent editors (and possibly administrator action in extreme cases, if an admin notices the report). ANI is for more protracted incidents, and involves discussion by editors and administrators; outcomes can involve providing advice, or blocking or banning, or removal of administrator privileges.
It is not appropriate to complain about other editors on the talk page of an article. Please stop: use the appropriate noticeboard; this page is for the article only. Johnuniq (talk) 23:46, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Johnuniq, if it is not appropriate to complain about other editors on the Talk page of an article, why have you complained about me on this Talk page more than once, and why have you sat quietly by while other editors on this Talk page have unrelentingly attacked and complained about me? This is merely another example of the double standard which obtains on this Talk page and with respect to the SAQ article. It's long past time this stopped, and every editor is treated equally on this Talk page and with respect to the SAQ article. It's small wonder that the number of editors willing to work on this page has dwindled to Tom Reedy and his close associates.NinaGreen (talk) 00:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I have never complained about you; instead, I have tried to offer advice regarding Wikpedia's procedures. None of my comments are a complaint about another editor, but possibly you have misinterpreted my comment above (22:17, 27 December 2010 UTC): You have edited this talk page twenty times in the last 24 hours. Are you aware that this is not a forum where endless discussion is tolerated? Per WP:TPG all discussion here should be focused on efforts to improve the article, so you need to make specific suggestions and not just express your thoughts. My other comments have addressed the topic of this page, except for a couple of times when I have posted evidence as a result of repeated claims not supported by evidence. I'm not sure you follow what is meant by an "attack" here: if an editor uses a talk page in a manner contrary to the spirit of WP:TALK, that editor is likely to receive strong requests to desist. Such requests are the bread-and-butter of Wikipedia, and are not attacks. You have been active at Wikipedia for under 40 days so it may be appropriate to raise any issues in the form of a question rather than an assertion. Please do not repeat any claims regarding people attacking you without a precise reference to the alleged attack. Johnuniq (talk) 03:39, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

You were dead wrong in making this complaint about me, and you have yet to apologize both for your error and for getting an administrator involved in it. And as for improving the article, as I've said to Nishidani below, the article will be improved when Tom stops owning it and lets someone besides himself edit it, and when you stop supporting him in owning the article and reverting edits.NinaGreen (talk) 05:46, 5 January 2011 (UTC)


She's been editing since 16 May, seven and a half months. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Revising The Lede

I've added two 'citation needed' tags to the final paragraph in the lede. In my view, the current lede should be replaced by the new version I've suggested, but in the interim, these statements in the current lede appear to be entirely unsupported. 'They' includes the 'prominent public figures' in the preceding sentence, and since whoever Nicholl referred to as 'prominent public figures' aren't identified, there needs to be a citation supporting the contention that the 'prominent public figures' named by Nicholl, whoever they are, are 'campaigning' etc. There also needs to be a citation for the second sentence other than Niederkorn, because Niederkorn says nothing about 'campaigning', or 'gaining public acceptance of the authorship question as a legitimate field of academic inquiry' or 'promoting one or another of the various authorship candidates', all of which is synthesis and original research.

Despite the scholastic consensus, a relatively small but highly visible and diverse assortment of supporters, including some prominent public figures, have questioned the traditional authorship attribution. They[citation needed] campaign[citation needed] through publications, organizations, online discussion groups, and conferences to gain public acceptance of the authorship question as a legitimate field of academic inquiry and to promote one or another of the various authorship candidates.[17]

NinaGreen (talk) 01:56, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

You challenged the lead, setting a strict requirement for a contemporary statement from a Shakespearean establishment scholar. An example of precisely this was given by Tom Reedy, among others. I singled it out, and asked you 3 times, to say why it did not solve the point you raised to justify rewriting the lead. This is the fourth time I ask you to reply to that query. It's quite simple. Answer 'yes' or 'no'.
I'll remove the citation tags. This is pure nitpicking obfuscation, and you are requiring that a source, itself unchallenged and unchallengeable, be more forthcoming to satisfy your private idea of what it should say1. Everyone who has the slightest knowledge of the literature is fully aware that 'prominent public figures' refers to actors and others etc. That they 'campaign' is evidenced in the text, which the lead summarizes, referring to the 2006 declaration. You are asking that the lead provide details which are in the main text, and appear not to be familiar with what leads do, or the relevant policy.Nishidani (talk) 03:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Nishidani's removal of the 'citation needed' tags constitutes Tendentious Editing, and I trust administrators of this page will require that he restore them immediately. The SAQ article neither identifies the 'prominent public figures' not establishes that they are 'campaigning', and the rest of the second sentence is pure synthesis and original research because nothing of the kind is found in the cited source, Niederkorn, as anyone who takes the trouble to look at Niederkorn's article through the link in the footnotes can readily see.NinaGreen (talk) 05:38, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh for Chrissake Nina. Stop this ridiculous pretence. A minute on google will get you dozens of references to the fact that a campaign exists to promote authorship doubts. You are on the inside of the inside of all of this material and it is impossible you do not know this, despite this absurd hairsplitting.
(1)Vanessa Thorpe, Campaign revives controversy of Bard's identity, in The Observer, Sunday 9 [September 2007
(2)no book marketing campaign yet devised by man or beast can beat the word-of-mouth campaign. Said by the de Verean writer Mark Anderson, The Shakespeare by Another Name Bulletin, Sept 2005, Issue No.2
(3)a well-orchestrated campaign James Shapiro cited at Mark Rylance and the Shakespeare Authorship controversy,
Pretending that the obvious needs meticulous documentation was part of the deep pathology of an earlier period in this page's history. Perhaps you don't know this, but precisely this strategy was what eventually caused a previous editor User:Smatprt, to be removed for a year. It exhausts the patience of everyone in its unilateral desire to equivocate or not hear, while pressing to home advantage some obscure cavil. All of us who read this stuff know perfectly well that is how the period and event described was spoken of. Don't restore that nightmare please.Nishidani (talk) 07:24, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Nina, do you even know how to check the article edit history? Nishidani didn't delete the tags; I provided a ref and removed them. Tom Reedy (talk) 12:59, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Xover's View That The SAQ Article Is Too Long

Obviously I am not the only one who thinks the SAQ article need serious pruning. Here are Xover's comments from the Peer Review page. Notice that he says the article has 'a weight issue. Not a WP:WEIGHT ISSUE; but an overweight issue!. Xover also says that '…I (very reluctantly) believe section 4 should be removed from this article entirely.'. Xover also has serious criticisms of other aspects of the article. Let's get on with improving it!NinaGreen (talk) 03:14, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Comments from Xover

There is no need to reproduce the comments when a link will do. this is one reason why this page becomes so hard to navigate. You also don't need to argue Xover's case for him. Tom Reedy (talk) 03:21, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

The link's fine as long as everyone realizes that among the other serious criticisms which Xover made of the article was that the note under Overview 'is inappropriate'. That's the same note which I deleted today. Tom Reedy instantly reverted my deletion. Now Xover also says the Note should be deleted. And as long as everyone realizes that among Xover's other serious criticisms of the article is that 'The current section 2 (Arguments against Shakespeare's authorship) and section 3 (Evidence for Shakespeare's authorship) take on exactly the kind of point—counterpoint form that WP:FRINGE discourages'. Let's get on with improving the article, which means hitting the Delete button for certain sections of it. And I'm not arguing Xover's case for him. He's argued it for himself. I happen to agree with him.NinaGreen (talk) 03:34, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
That's all well and good, but I happen to disagree with a few of his points, the "point-counterpoint" style being one of them. A discussion among editors is appropriate, not "hitting the Delete button for certain sections of it". Notice Xover didn't go into the article and start "hitting the Delete button" for the sections he critised the way you did earlier today. And also notice his last comment: "Overall this is a monumental piece of work, and I am very awed and grateful for the job you've done here; certainly a potential Featured Article, and a year ago I would barely have believed that possible. Kudos!" That's hardly licence to begin "hitting the Delete button". Tom Reedy (talk) 03:41, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
As an uninvolved editor who came to this article to provide a review, I agree with Tom Reedy regarding approach to editing. Also, the point-counterpoint style has been an issue for discussion previously, and trimming this article, while necessary, is not going to be achieved by deleting sections without discussing proposals here first. hamiltonstone (talk) 08:31, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, Xover. Tom, I and a few others have gone round cap in hand begging for strong peer-review input with relatively little success. We've expressed our commitment to sticking to this, taking on board as much criticism from experienced hands generally, and Shakespearean aficionados specifically, to get this through any wikipedia process, until FA criteria are all met. Whatever it takes it that far we, and several others, are willing to do it, and your notes are useful.
Undue weight. As you know, we've barely scratched the surface of what might be said, and neither has scholarship. Thousands of books have been published on the topic, the details are intricate, despite an immense amount of confused reduplication etc., and once one gets into the topic, one can be overwhelmed. The WS article which you take for comparison on length deals with one man's short and poorly documented life. This article deals with 160 years of passionate, if fringe, commentary on everything from the life, to the plays, to the period. I think therefore that it is almost inevitable that any attempt to give the passing reader an insight into this minor, if profuse, tradition of commentary is bound to push out the pages.
The 'Stratfordian' vs 'anti-Stratfordian' note reflects the fact that these terms are those favoured by one side, anti-Stratfordians, and generally have been disliked by the mainstreamers. If I recall, I was reluctant to use these terms, but compromised with Tom. To use them is to allow that, both within the fringe discourse, which the article deals with, and the now growing if minor sector of academia that looks at it, these appear to be the default terms, though, as a quote shows, they are considered prejudicial by the academic mainstream, since the balance they imply between views does not reflect the contrast between an extreme fringe position and the general cultural and intellectual consensus.
Point Counterpoint (ignoring Aldous Huxley). I think this was the problem of the earlier version, and made it most troublesome to edit, because the number of itemized talking points in the fringe literature is infinite, though most of it is ignored as simply wrongheaded, and thus cannot be replied to by using reliable sources. Hamiltonstone's review, unless memory errs, asked it to be corrected ?), with sections separated. Both Tom and I don't and never have really thought a rebuttal section is required. But experience tells one there are many readers, particularly those unfamiliar with the literature, the period, and scholarship, who have no awareness of the state of the art of contemporary academic opinion on this. There are many subtextual elements in these sorts of articles that leave room, if one is unguarded, for leading naïve readers astray, and that is one reason why a fair exposition of the fringe view, followed by a brief exposition of the mainstream view, seems required. It is not strictly a point counterpoint, item by item, to and fro as far as I can see.
As noted, I’m not in a position to edit much here, but will return. Personally I think not editing in a hurry, but taking considerable time to discuss and mull every helpful point raised is an advantage to the FA process. We still need more wider input, but the situation looks better than it did a month or so ago. I am in agreement with some other points, but will have to desist for now. Cheers Nishidani (talk) 08:38, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
I put the above here because I gather from the linked page that it's for external peer review, and not for a debate from those actively involved in editing the article?Nishidani (talk) 08:45, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh, goodness me; I've not had such an… exuberant reaction to a review in… well, ever. Let's see…

  • A link to the review you're commenting on is good; reproducing the text of the review here is effectively just noise. Anyone sufficiently engaged with the article will read it on the PR page (which, as it happens, is already linked at the top of the page).
  • Improving the article (and all the other articles on Wikipedia) is why we're all here; and Tom and Nishidani have put an immense effort into improving this article over the last year. I don't think they need to be exhorted to get on with improving it; they are already keeping on improving it.
  • While my review does argue that the Note in the Overview section should be deleted, I hope you'll note that I also reverted your deletion of this section yesterday. Quite apart from the (not insignificant) issues of process, my argument is also not as simplistic as “Delete it!” and I would prefer if you didn't try to present it as if it was. In other words, please don't use my review to argue to authority when presenting your case; I much prefer to make my arguments myself.
  • When Tom put the article up for Peer Review he specifically noted “I want to try to take it to FA status” (which is, incidentally, the usual reason for requesting PR). My review, then, seeks to help him get the article to FA; and it does so by commenting on the things that, in my experience, the FAC reviewers will have issues with. Note that I here make a careful distinction between “What I think the FAC reviewers will want” and “How I personally would prefer the article to be”. The latter would, incidentally, be in favor of such a direct approach to terminology that arguing the semantics of “Jargon” would be the last thing on anyone's mind.
  • This means I've provided the review to help Tom and Nish (and the other editors of this page), and not in order to advance my own preferred position. My review comments are made in the belief that they will improve the article, and I will present my reasoning and argument for them to the editors on the page so that they may take advantage of it (even if only to disagree).
  • As for Nishidani's comments on the weight issue, I agree that the subject is a… convoluted one, and that some arbitrary page, byte, or word limit should not overrule the requirements of comprehensiveness or clarity. I do however believe that the section “Evidence for Shakespeare's authorship” is not necessary to cover the topic. The article's subject is the Shakespeare authorship question but that section deals exclusively with the mainstream evidence that weighs against it. If you simply remove the entire section the article will still have exactly the same coverage of the actual Shakespeare authorship question. I would agree that this section was necessary iff the rest of the article did not make sufficiently clear the status of the various theories; in other words, the section would be needed iff it was necessary to provide a counter-argument to the rest of the article. In my opinion, this is not necessary as the rest of the article is already clear on the status of the various claims made.
  • The article in general is refreshingly free of the typical point—counterpoint style that so many of these articles devolve into. I brought it up to illustrate the problem I see with including the above mentioned section; it acts in effect like point—counterpoint just on a grander scale. My rule of thumb is that whenever you feel the need to counter or balance what you've previously written, then the original point was insufficiently polished. If you present the fringe POV accurately, then you don't need anywhere to specify what the common consensus view is; it will be clear by implication.
  • Note that I have personally wished for precisely that kind of succinct summary of the evidence to be available on Wikipedia—not least to have one convenient place to point people confused by what an alleged “lack of evidence” actually means—and hope that it can be a standalone article, possibly referenced as a main article from a summary style section in this article. I reserve the right to hold two or more contradictory opinions at the same time.

I think that just about covers the comments so far. Do please feel free to ask if there is something still unclear; and I'll look forward to a constructive discussion here to determine if there is consensus for any changes in the article and, if so, precisely what form they should take. In particular, if the changes I've suggested in the review comments are insufficiently specific please do let me know and I'll try to fix it to make clear what I mean. I also have a sandbox where I've made the more sweeping changes mentioned to see what effect they'd have, should anyone be curious as to what they would look like in practice. Finally, I don't think I can praise you enough on the great job you've done on this article, perhaps especially considering the surrounding controversy and related WikiDrama. I've long hoped for a FA-quality article on this subject, but I've not previously dared believe it possible. Kudos! --Xover (talk) 11:20, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I will make some comments later today, but meanwhile I will say that the terms "Stratfordian" and "anti-Stratfordian" are common terms used when discussing the SAQ, and have been used for more than 100 years with no further implications other than authorship positions. I am puzzled as to why you characterised it as "misleading" and "loaded". Moving it out into the article text is fine with me; at one time it was in the lede but was moved out to save space. (I've been trying to determine when it first came into use, but haven't yet discovered it.) Tom Reedy (talk) 13:55, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Well, I consider them loaded (with an agenda) and misleading because the apparent purpose of describing the common consensus view as Stratfordian is to create the impression that they are merely an equal and competing camp with the anti-Stratfordians; and because they are an invention of the “anti-Stratfordians” in an attempt to gain credibility and undermine mainstream scholarship. I will however happily defer to your better knowledge of the current state of scholarship if you believe these are now de facto accepted as terms of art (I disagree with their use, as per previously, but I am not up to date on academic usage). My underlying point (which I think perhaps I did not communicate clearly) is that iff this is so, then the terms should not be explained in a meta-note but rather be included in the main body text of the article (possibly on first use), and perhaps even explain their origins and etymology. Iff these are not generally accepted terms within the field then Wikipedia should not use them; the note should be removed; and all sentences where they are used recast to avoid them. My preference, as mentioned, is the latter, but I defer to your better knowledge on the point. --Xover (talk) 14:36, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
I see your point. I just did a search and see that Shapiro only uses the terms in quotations, although McCrea uses the terms 20-some-odd times. My use is purely for the sake of convenience as a short and unmistakeable noun or adjective. Perhaps it should be in the text as a parenthetical comment, as in "(often referred to as anti-Stratfordians)", and recast the various useages as "sceptics" or "authorship advocates". Tom Reedy (talk) 15:42, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
The amount of discussion of this minor point is mind-boggling. Cogent reasons have been advanced for the deletion of this entirely unnecessary section which interrupts the flow of the article and treats potential readers as incapable of grasping the use of the terms Stratfordian and anti-Stratfordian (which don't need to be used at all in the article) without having them explained to them. Just delete the section.NinaGreen (talk) 17:57, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Our job is to describe the topic, not conform it to our personal views. The amount of discussion on this is minuscule compared to other topics that have been brought up to no purpose, and it has the advantage of actually concerning the article. Tom Reedy (talk) 18:36, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Tom, I can't recall a single topic which has been brought up on this Talk page to any purpose. The reason for that is that you control the article, contrary to Wikipedia policy, and you will not allow a syllable of it to be altered without your express consent, which you never grant. Nor will you allow a single edit by anyone other than yourself to stand without instantly reverting it. You have admitted that you are biased, and have even gone so far as to claim that your bias brings a useful perspective to the article. No editor of this page who is among your close group of associates has ever objected in the slightest to any of this, and no administrator intervened in any way to prevent it from continuing. That's an objective view of the status quo with respect to the SAQ article. It is from Wikipedia's intent and Wikipedia's policies.NinaGreen (talk) 20:03, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
The fact that you don't listen is no argument against the content of my posts, just as your continuous badgering is no validation for your false accusations. You need to either take your complaints to dispute resolution or stop your offensive behaviour. Tom Reedy (talk) 21:57, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Tom, you are the one who don't listen. In the month or so I've been involved with Wikipedia I haven't seen a single suggestion for substantive editing put forward by anyone which you've accepted as a valid point. And it is your behaviour which is offensive behaviour. I've drawn attention to several personal attacks you've made on me, and there are others which are legion which I haven't specifically drawn attention to. In fact any objective observer who were to go through the comments made by you and you allies on this Talk page would see that they constitute one long unrelenting attack. You and your associates are able to get away with this behaviour which violates every tenet of relevant Wikipedia policy because administrators who involve themselves with this page do nothing to stop you.NinaGreen (talk) 22:28, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Any objective observer would commit suicide before reading half-way through this talk page. Tom Reedy (talk) 16:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Tom Reedy's Comments On Wikiquette

Tom Reedy has posted on Wikiquette. Here is the response I just posted there:

┌─────────────────────────────────┘ This is not an etiquette issue or an issue of 'editing style'. It concerns Tom Reedy's admitted bias and his complete control of the SAQ article which I raised on the Peer Review page today in the comments below. These comments were twice censored by Tom Reedy, who deleted them from the Peer Review page so that the editors doing the peer review of the SAQ article could not see them.

I've placed this comment on the Talk page for the SAQ article, and I'm placing it here as well so that peer reviewers will be aware of the restrictions which, contrary to Wikipedia policy, have been placed on any editing of the SAQ article to improve it. I've made many attempts to improve the article on a number of fronts including lack of neutrality, presence of synthesis and original research, excessive length, excessive use of footnotes which almost equal the length the article etc. etc., and in every case I've either been prevented from editing at all by Tom's demand that consensus be reached on the Talk page before any editing by me can be done (an impossibility), or Tom or one of his close associates has instantly reverted my edits before anyone can even look at them or consider them, even though I've placed the edits up for discussion on the Talk page. This is all completely contrary to Wikipedia policy, and no article should be even considered for Peer Review when this sort of strong-arming of any opposition is going on. Here's what I wrote to Tom on the subject on the Talk page:
Tom, I can't recall a single topic which has been brought up on this Talk page to any purpose. The reason for that is that you control the article, contrary to Wikipedia policy, and you will not allow a syllable of it to be altered without your express consent, which you never grant. Nor will you allow a single edit by anyone other than yourself to stand without instantly reverting it. You have admitted that you are biased, and have even gone so far as to claim that your bias brings a useful perspective to the article. No editor of this page who is among your close group of associates has ever objected in the slightest to any of this, and no administrator has intervened in any way to prevent it from continuing. That's an objective view of the status quo with respect to the SAQ article. It is far from Wikipedia's intent and Wikipedia's policies.

It is quite true, as Tom admits, that he has made completely inappropriate personal attacks on me, only one of which he has apologized for. But in addition to Tom Reedy's unrelenting personal attacks, the principal issues are Tom's admitted bias (of which details are available on the SAQ talk page), and his complete control of the editing of the SAQ article, of which not a single syllable can be altered without Tom's express permission, completely contrary to Wikipedia's policy that no editor owns a Wikipedia article. It seems beyond dispute that no article should be put forward for peer review by an editor who has admitted bias concerning the topic of the article and who completely controls the editing of every syllable of the article and purports to 'own' the article.NinaGreen (talk) 03:48, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Again, this page is for discussions to improve the article. You are using it apparently to challenge one of the main editors, Tom Reedy. This has been noted several times, as has the fact that you plaster many pages with the same complaint, when editors have directed you to the appropriate policies and appropriate forums, to express your grievances. You appear to systematically ignore, I prefer to believe, not understand, all advice on this technical side. To persist in this behaviour is to invite sanctions, so I suggest you desist and following the advice of several experienced editors to (a)not repeat yourself (b) not copy and plaster the same text everywhere (c)not persistently misrepresent people's opinions: to characterize Reedy's remarks, while responding to you, as 'unrelenting personal attacks' is to use a form of hyperbole that amounts to defamation, and constitutes, unless supported by strong evidence, not here, but on the WP:NPA/WP:ANI forums, an instance of what you complain of, i.e. an 'unrelenting personal attack' on an editor who has no record for such behaviour.(d) not to indulge in a campaign of whining over an ostensible 'censorship' in wikipedia when all that is happening is experienced editors removing your material from certain pages because you persist in plunking it where it is not appropriate.Nishidani (talk) 04:17, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

The SAQ article will be vastly improved when Tom stops owning the article and allows someone besides himself to edit it, and when you stop supporting Tom's ownership of the article, which is completely contrary to Wikipedia policy.NinaGreen (talk) 05:43, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I made 900 edits to this article, though it doesn't show in the peer review window statistics, Nina. Then Tom revised that. I've had few objections to his radical revision on two grounds. He is one of the best editors for neutrality around here, and has a thorough mastery of both matters Shakespearean and the history of this particular theory. I don't see ownership, which was definitely the case with User:Smatprt's attitude to this and contiguous articles. I see, rather, extensive requests for peer input, rigorous review, and an openness to serious criticism over the past months, and a general community interest in seeing that 9 months of dedicated work on an historically all-but-impossible-to-productively-edit article do not go to waste by the kind of destructive 'defend the de Verean salient' approach which marked its past. No one, of the several de Verean editors who consistently edited that failed article ever worried about bringing it up to the standard wikipedia optimally asks for. As soon as this was undertaken, an assault on it got underway. Repeating this furphy is just wasting space. There is room for improvement. There is no evidence that a 'vast improvement' will automatically follow upon a successful campaign by yourself or others to remove him. To the contrary. Nishidani (talk) 07:38, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Nishidani, you're hardly a judge of Tom's neutrality as an editor. You've admitted equal bias, having called the subject of this article 'this ideological mania' earlier on this page. The problem with the editing of the SAQ article is that both you and Tom have admitted that you are biased. The SAQ article, which you state you have jointly edited, reflects that bias, and naturally you're both unwilling to have any other editor remove the bias.NinaGreen (talk) 19:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I think you should examine what you mean by 'bias'. Making a judgement which happens to coincide with what the academic consensus in a subject is not to 'admit' to anything other than one's agreement with the best available discourse on a subject as that is determined by wikipedia's RS policy. To have an 'opinion' does not translate into being 'biased'. Were it to bear that implication, it would empty the word 'bias' of its meaning. You have extremely strong convictions, as anyone familiar with your work knows. You appear however to think, that 'bias' is what other people think, much as 'ideology' is commonly used for what other people believe. I'm a reasonable judge of Tom's neutrality because he's run roughshod over points I thought important at times, and on examining his edits, I realized he was right, the swine, and I was wrong, and accepted the correction. It's called 'humility' in some quarters, and bias in others.Nishidani (talk) 19:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Nina, are you still planning to leave mid-January for a few months? If so, maybe we can get some work done in your absence, and it might save Wikipedia having to buy a new server. I wouldn't want my donation this year to have to be spent archiving your baseless and repetitious complaints. Tom Reedy (talk) 12:48, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Zweigenbaum Endorse the remarks of Nina Green above. I have experienced the same intransigence and dismissal on pretextual grounds. Any initiative to bring this article into factual accuracy fails by fiat of the writer and his cohort. Being written by a convinced opponent of any evidence or information premised by competing theories, Reedy's article has a clear conflict of interest. That condition cannot be masked by inserted a different word or two. A poison of condemnation mars the text. Now the author(s?) position seems to be that too much work has gone into the(ir?) effort for them to sanction alternative editing, a position which mirrors the very self-protective doctrines by the Stratfordian Shakespeare majority in question. Recent appeals to Wikipedia etiquette when so confronted by incoming editors represent another variation on resistance. The indecency of lurking until Ms Green goes on vacation so as to reverse her efforts is illustrative of Mr. Reedy's, et. al., concept of etiquette. Surely not admirable ethics. Rejecting the point/counterpoint solution to the neutrality deficit constitutes yet another example. There is also the historical record of someone being suspended from the editing process due to similarly? opposing this ideologically driven approach. In general, it is highly unproductive to condemn, to reject, and to resist the advance of knowledge. No one need fear it. Zweigenbaum (talk) 15:55, 5 January 2011 (UTC) Zweigenbaum

Hmm. Someone's "Baseless and repetitious complaints". This section started off as Tom Reedy's comments on Wikipedia etiquette. Where is it, Tom? Start out by learning the language of your adversary. Read a few books as a gesture of good will. I recommend The Six Loves of Shake-Speare, Louis P. Benezet, PhD, 1958 pp. 99-126; Malice Aforethought, Paul Hemenway Altrocchi, MD, 2010, pp. 102-120; Great Oxford, Richard Malim, Ed., 2004, pp. 140-50. It would take about an hour. Zweigenbaum (talk) 08:53, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Very good article

I think this is a very nice article. It is set out with a clear logical structure. It presents the main arguments of both sides of the debate. It rightly makes the point that most serious Shakespeare scholars do not support any of the alternative theories. It is well written so that a newbie (me) can come along and learn a lot with little effort.

OK, the page is a bit too long. But I can see no case for deleting whole sections of something that is so carefully written.

There also a bit of bias, with a tendency to over-ridicule the alternative views, by presenting them in their more extreme forms.

As a small step on these two minor points I have deleted the paragraph that started "Shakespeare, Oxford, and Bacon spoke to Percy Allen from the spirit world in 1947..."

I see a lot of bickering on the talk page, but very little actual criticism of the content of the article. If anyone has any specific criticisms of the material, let's hear them. Remember, the purpose of the talk page is for discussing improvements to the article. Poujeaux (talk) 16:36, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words, Poujeaux. We tried to present the theories as straight-faced neutrally as possible, which is sometimes difficult given their intrinsic nature. You might want to stay away from the Prince Tudor theory. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:05, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Great first step, Poujeaux!NinaGreen (talk) 19:36, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Hmm. I disagree, incidentally. I think the relevant paragraph should perhaps be recast to avoid any impression of ridicule, but it is relevant, pertinent, and cited; and it really is a claim made by the group in question. That someone makes ridiculous claims is hardly the fault of this article's editors. --Xover (talk) 07:48, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Well, so many weird theories have been developed that it's impossible to include them all. Of course Percy's view that Shakespeare was Elizabeth's son is the precursor of Prince Tudor, but course she had already given birth to Francis Bacon, so Oxford (and/or Southampton) was only the youngest of her distinguished offspring. Paul B (talk) 18:50, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Diverse assortment

I've always been troubled by this phrasing:-

highly visible and diverse assortment

The notion of 'Diverse' is already contained in 'assortment', which is a grouping of heterogeneous elements. You can't get rid of it by eliding 'diverse', since many of the groups are not 'highly visible'. In fact 'highly visible' practically refers to the major group of de Vereans within the assortment, that includes Marlovians, Baconians, Derbyites, etc etc., most of whom do not engage in stunts for publicity, or stage events to capture the public eye. So I think the 5 words should be reformulated, to conform to the exemplary precision of most of the rest of the text. I know this is a brain-twister Tom, and sorry for the bother. I have a hangover and can't come up with a variant at the moment. Nishidani (talk) 22:36, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

The idea is that they make a lot of noise for being such a small segment of the population. If every signature on the Declaration of Reasonable Doubt represents 1,000 believers (it's collecting 1.5 signatures a day), that would work out to only one-half of one percent of the U.S. population, and it's an international campaign. So collectively they are highly visible in comparison to their numbers, not that they're all media whores knocking over anybody who gets between them and the TV cameras. By the very fact that all these genres of anti-Stratfordism without exception pay for and sponsor web sites and societies makes them highly visible, and I have never heard of one that didn't seek publicity (which is a nice tautology). So I think that comparative "mouse that roared" element is what we're trying to accentuate and find a way to communicate. Tom Reedy (talk) 23:27, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Highly visible assortment? I'm objecting to 'diverse'+'assortment' since the adjective is already contained in the substantive, both signifying heterogeneity. Nishidani (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Fine with me, but stylistically I like hendiadys. They impart a rhythm that seems more natural than just using one adjective. "highly visible and diverse ??? of supporters?" The use of "assortment" is meant to convey a non-aligned group, since they all support different candidates, so "group" would be the wrong word, as would "league" or "assemblage". "flock"?
Playing with it I think "highly visible assortment" is probably as good as can be done, unless anybody else can come up with a better concoction. Tom Reedy (talk) 01:20, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Oh, given the element of detection and badgering, I suppose 'a highly visible slew(th) of supporters' . . .!! just joking. I think a 'highly visible assortment of supporters' is enough, but since we've argued this before and it's not actually of momentous weight, I won't worry the point.Nishidani (talk) 04:19, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
"a relatively small but conspicuous assortment of supporters"? Tom Reedy (talk) 04:33, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
That looks like a done deal, but reckon I may be hairsplitting. If anyone else likes to chip in on this quillet of philological fancy,..?Nishidani (talk) 04:37, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm glad I'm not the only one given to such hair-splitting. I think assortment connotes selection rather than diversity as such; that is, an assortment suggests a couple to choose from unless it is specified that the assortment in question is rich, vast, comprehensive, or diverse. I think the original phrasing can stand untouched. --Xover (talk) 06:28, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

As opposed to its etymological force, 'assortment' now implies rather medley, farrago (internal diversity). But against my point, the word is Elizabethan and (2) I note that Kathryn Prince's Shakespeare in the Victorian periodicals, Taylor & Francis, 2008 p.105 uses, precisely, 'diverse assortment' to speak of the mix of West-End theatre habitues (toffs) and working class people. So Tom's original formulation, whatever I may think, stays. I'll have to find something else in the text to seriously (s.inf.) editwar against him.Nishidani (talk) 08:42, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
But I love farrago, lol! Or how about "a gallimaufry of supporters"? "An omnium-gatherum of advocates"? Bishonen | talk 22:00, 6 January 2011 (UTC), courtesy of wordsmyth.net.

Are Administrator's Monitoring Nishidani And Tom Reedy's Personal Attacks?

Are administrators on this page monitoring Nishidani and Tom Reedy personal attacks, including use of profanity and revelation of personal information?

Oh for Chrissake Nina. Stop this ridiculous pretence. [snip] Nishidani (talk) 07:24, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Nina, are you still planning to leave mid-January for a few months? If so, maybe we can get some work done in your absence, and it might save Wikipedia having to buy a new server. I wouldn't want my donation this year to have to be spent archiving your baseless and repetitious complaints. Tom Reedy (talk) 12:48, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

NinaGreen (talk) 19:37, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Nina I thought since you had already quoted from that series of e-mails you wouldn't object to my merely alluding to them.
And as far as I know admins don't "monitor" anybody. However, they would be happy to take a complaint at the right noticeboard, as you have been told more than several times.
Now if you'll excuse me we're trying to build an encyclopedia here. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:55, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Tom, I'll leave it up to the administrators involved with this page to decided whether they "monitor" anybody, and to decide whether your and Nishidani's comments are inappropriate and in violation of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. That's their job, not yours.NinaGreen (talk) 20:06, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Consider also this

The lack of documentary evidence for Shakespeare's education is a staple of anti-Stratfordian arguments, as well as his literacy or lack of it.

The italicized clause seems unnecessary, as it is implicit in what precedes. It would mean 'Shakespeare's literacy is a staple of anti-Stratfordian arguments' whereas his 'ostensible lack of literacy' is the gravamen of this part of their hypothesis. I think the clause could be snipped without loss.Nishidani (talk) 23:40, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. Literacy can be had without formal education, which is what school records document. And both are staples of just about every argument against the Stratford poacher and usurer I've read. The education is always brought up to "prove" he could not have had access to all the thousands of sources he used (which if he did, he would never have had time to write a play, no matter who he was), and the literacy is always brought up against his signatures. Tom Reedy (talk) 02:20, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Am I allowed to agree with Nishidani? If so, I agree with him on this point.NinaGreen (talk) 03:00, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
It is the 'as well as' that I see as slightly awkward. The lack of evidence leads to inferences about his literacy or lack of it. It's only a matter of phrasing or nuance. I agree perfectly with the formulation, it's just we are supposed to be at the point of polishing the thing for style.Nishidani (talk) 04:57, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

On deleting "Evidence for Shakespeare's authorship" section

Point Counterpoint (ignoring Aldous Huxley). I think this was the problem of the earlier version, and made it most troublesome to edit, because the number of itemized talking points in the fringe literature is infinite, though most of it is ignored as simply wrongheaded, and thus cannot be replied to by using reliable sources. Hamiltonstone's review, unless memory errs, asked it to be corrected ?), with sections separated. Both Tom and I don't and never have really thought a rebuttal section is required. But experience tells one there are many readers, particularly those unfamiliar with the literature, the period, and scholarship, who have no awareness of the state of the art of contemporary academic opinion on this. There are many subtextual elements in these sorts of articles that leave room, if one is unguarded, for leading naïve readers astray, and that is one reason why a fair exposition of the fringe view, followed by a brief exposition of the mainstream view, seems required. It is not strictly a point counterpoint, item by item, to and fro as far as I can see. Nishidani (talk) 08:38, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

  • As for Nishidani's comments on the weight issue, I agree that the subject is a… convoluted one, and that some arbitrary page, byte, or word limit should not overrule the requirements of comprehensiveness or clarity. I do however believe that the section “Evidence for Shakespeare's authorship” is not necessary to cover the topic. The article's subject is the Shakespeare authorship question but that section deals exclusively with the mainstream evidence that weighs against it. If you simply remove the entire section the article will still have exactly the same coverage of the actual Shakespeare authorship question. I would agree that this section was necessary iff the rest of the article did not make sufficiently clear the status of the various theories; in other words, the section would be needed iff it was necessary to provide a counter-argument to the rest of the article. In my opinion, this is not necessary as the rest of the article is already clear on the status of the various claims made.
  • The article in general is refreshingly free of the typical point—counterpoint style that so many of these articles devolve into. I brought it up to illustrate the problem I see with including the above mentioned section; it acts in effect like point—counterpoint just on a grander scale. My rule of thumb is that whenever you feel the need to counter or balance what you've previously written, then the original point was insufficiently polished. If you present the fringe POV accurately, then you don't need anywhere to specify what the common consensus view is; it will be clear by implication.
  • Note that I have personally wished for precisely that kind of succinct summary of the evidence to be available on Wikipedia—not least to have one convenient place to point people confused by what an alleged “lack of evidence” actually means—and hope that it can be a standalone article, possibly referenced as a main article from a summary style section in this article. I reserve the right to hold two or more contradictory opinions at the same time.
I think that just about covers the comments so far. Do please feel free to ask if there is something still unclear; and I'll look forward to a constructive discussion here to determine if there is consensus for any changes in the article and, if so, precisely what form they should take. In particular, if the changes I've suggested in the review comments are insufficiently specific please do let me know and I'll try to fix it to make clear what I mean. I also have a sandbox where I've made the more sweeping changes mentioned to see what effect they'd have, should anyone be curious as to what they would look like in practice. Finally, I don't think I can praise you enough on the great job you've done on this article, perhaps especially considering the surrounding controversy and related WikiDrama. I've long hoped for a FA-quality article on this subject, but I've not previously dared believe it possible. Kudos! --Xover (talk) 11:20, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Here is what WP:Fringe actually says: ". . . articles dedicated specifically to fringe ideas: Such articles should first describe the idea clearly and objectively, then refer the reader to more accepted ideas, and avoid excessive use of point-counterpoint style refutations." I honestly think the article does well at this as it is. I think it does a a good job of "referring readers to more accepted ideas" without an "excessive" point-counterpoint style. Point-counterpoint style is not forbidden in the guideline outright. Only excessive use of that style is. I believe we have a happy medium here. I think deleting the section in question would be a big mistake. Comparing the size of this article to other articles in this project is also a mistake, I think, because it is so different from any of those articles. Rather, we should compare it to other controversial articles. Evolution, for example, is larger than this article by nearly 30kb, and Intelligent design by over 40kb. Both of these articles are FAs. Let's not pull out the scissors quite yet here. Wrad (talk) 19:00, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
You beat me to the quote, Wrad, but that's the one I was going to bring up. The old article was full of "Anti-Strats say this, but Strats respond" and "Strats point out that, but anti-Strats reply", and it was like watching a very boring tennis match. That's what I call "point-counterpoint". We tried to follow the fringe guideline in presenting the topic in as neutral a tone as possible, followed by the academic consensus. And if you look at the article, I can only find one specific refutation, that of the interlineations in Shakespeare's will. None of the candidate sections contain any refutations at all. In short, this article follows the WP:FRINGE guideline, and was written to do so.
As to the "Evidence for Shakespeare's authorship" section, it is reffed from sources that deal explicitly with the SAQ, also according to policy, so it is part of the field (half of it, in fact). It seems odd that on one hand we strictly limit ourselves to WP:RS secondary sources and at the same time ignore half of the content of those sources. In the Intelligent design article that Wrad points to above, the mainstream view follows each treatment of the subject in its section; they're not left out on the premise that the article should just cover the fringe topic and leave it to context and implication to ensure that it's clearly a fringe topic. If the section were pulled out and made a separate article, what would it be called? Shakespeare authorship question: The academic consensus?
I think encyclopedia articles should be long enough to cover the topic comprehensively, and that arbitrary length standards are not imposed on Wikipedia for a good reason: some topics deserve little space while more complicated topics need more space. This is a topic that necessarily needs more space, and the fact that several FA articles exceed it is proof that it won't be a hindrance to the FA process. Tom Reedy (talk) 21:39, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Well, I'll readily concede that the article does not violate WP:FRINGE, and, it appears, it was a mistake to explain my point in relation to that. I merely meant it to illustrate why I felt the mainstream section was awkward; and the main thrust of my reasoning is that it is just not needed. The rest of the article does an admirable job of presenting the subject fairly, but clearly, and this section just seems redundant and malapropos. If it came to it, you could actually have an article called Evidence for Shakespeare's authorship (a bit awkward, but not fatally so); or you could incorporate it in some more appropriate article related to his life or his works (the ill fated … plays article could accommodate some of it, I'm sure).
As to the absolute size, a quick peek suggests it's 135kB, which would make it among the top fifty largest FAs. I am personally convinced FAC reviewers will complain at the size; but, of course, this does not imply that they cannot be convinced of the need or that it would prevent the article from passing (there is, after all, no fixed size limits in the FA criteria).
In any case, as I mentioned, I quite like that section and it is with great reluctance that I'm arguing somewhat against my own preference in favor of its removal; but I do still think, by the reasoning above, that it should be omitted. Incidentally, I also think this is the one significant issue remaining; everything else that's needed is just polish. I'm sure it can be improved upon, but on my last read-through I saw nothing (modulo the review comments) else that needs to be improved. --Xover (talk) 08:13, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
I know nothing of FA procedures, so, if the overriding desire is to write towards FA to ensure it obtains that qualification, I could endorse your point. Temperamentally, I write towards what I perceive to be the exigencies of the text, in terms of comprehensive coverage of a topic. When I find myself in conflict between a desire for security/recognition and a desire to be adequate to the complexities of a subject matter, I sacrifice, or rather risk, the former, hoping the reviewer/reader will appreciate that the demands of comprehensiveness override formal concerns for concision (this in terms of extrawiki work).
Since the Fringe point can be now discarded, the only potential objection is length. I think the sensible move would be to polish the text intensively, and then, if possible, suggest to FA reviewers or resident experts that, if length is a fatal objection, a simple block excision can be made, but that in the interests of comprehensiveness the writers have retained the complete text. The argument is that the RS materials used to write the article about the SAQ would, if that section were excised or sacrificed, have a good half of their matter (the academic analysis of SAQ theories) truncated, and thus the internal debate by Shakespearean scholars on SAQ theories would disappear from view. Though readers should not be guided towards a view, I think responsible editors in an area as confused as this have to consider the nature of today's readership. What would look like a neutral guiide, without the academic position included, over the conspiracy theories may, to them, read like a user-friendly exposition that then sends them to the sites where most of the disinformation abounds without significant rebuttal from the academic world. The academic world generally ignores the subject, I don't think a comprehensive exposition should, while expounding the subject, hide from view the key details of why scholarship thinks these theories wholly untenable.
Having read intensively over the past several months on this subject, I think it has some considerable potential to obtain recognition as the default internet analysis, in terms of comprehensiveness, neutrality and concision, and that would be a feather in the Wikipedia Project cap. There is a huge amount of conspiracy out there, but little in the way of a reliable cautious survey of the terrain, or vademecum into the subject, of this calibre. I hope FA reviewers see this.Nishidani (talk) 09:41, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
I too think that trying to write to one's idea of what a reviewer might want is not what we should be doing. The main goal should be a comprehensive article covering all relevant aspects of a topic, and certainly the academic rejoinder to authorship proponents is one important element, and I daresay leaving it out would cause more head-scratching than article length would.
That it would be in the top 50 of FA articles in terms of length (as opposed to, say, top ten or top 20) is certainly no argument for leaving out vital information, IMO. One point that I have made that has not been addressed is that stripped of all the images, refs, and external links, etc. (as recommended when measuring article length), the article comes in at 71kb—longer than most, but a length entirely appropriate to such a topic, which is by no means simple on either side, involving interpretations of history and the use of inductive and deductive reasoning.
And are you aware of any books about authorship that aspire to be comprehensive that do what you're recommending? That is, leave out one side and leave it to the reader to discern context and what the other side says about it through implication? While irony is a valid fictional technique (Candide comes to mind), I think it has no place in an encyclopedia article that purports to explain a complicated topic that is full of arguments, not all of them easy to understand
If by chance any major objections are brought up about length, the history section would be the most logical place to make cuts, but again that would take out a lot of context. The candidate sections could probably be cut back also, since they have dedicated full-length articles, (in the case of Oxford, multiple entries, although all of them ill-written and disorganised).
What I am more concerned about is your objection to using the terms "Stratfordian" and "anti-Stratfordian". I can see your point and am willing to go along with it, but I can come up with no good way to do it without introducing the use of awkward terms as substitutes. What, for example, would you call the external links section? "Orthodox"? Too churchy, IMO. "Traditional"? I dunno. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:30, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
If you'll forgive the lazyness, I'm largely going to skip Nishidani's response above, and respond to Tom's following one, except to say that your (Nishidani's) argument to a degree proves my point: you argue that the section in question needs to be there to refute the Authorship side, and to serve as a general refutation for it on the Internet; and this is not the purpose of Wikipedia in general or this article specifically. The specific goal for this article is to explain the Shakespeare Authorship Question and its history (etc. etc.). It is a valid point for debate whether and to what degree one needs to cover the mainstream view and contrary evidence as part of that “etc. etc.” above; but my worry is that at least part of the motivation for keeping this section is the desire to refute (with which urge I would of course sympathize), which would be inappropriate.
I do however agree with you both that one should weigh, at least initially, the needs of the subject and the text far more heavily than a hypothetical reviewer's whims. Iff the section is needed for clarity or context (which is the point we, as I see it, disagree on) then it should certainly stay regardless of what we may fear the wolves at FAC will possibly at some future point feel about it. However, the stated goal of this exercise (the PR included) is to achieve FA status for the article, so I bring up what I imagine those said reviewers will have issue with.
That it would be in the top 50 FAs by size was not intended as an argument; it was a mere data point. If the correct measure of its length, likewise, is 71kB it would be in the top 600 FAs by size (given there are, what, a few thousand FAs, that suggests it's more or less of average size). To similarly give comparable numbers, I above used page numbers; and the current article is 40 pages, while the longest FA (Michael Jackson) is 49 pages (but I suspect a lot of that is templates for awards and such at the end). I still think the article feels quite long, but for all but extreme cases this will be a subjective measure.
The actual FA criteria requirement is for both comprehensive (1b) and length (4); the latter with reference to Summary Style. I doubt simple length alone will overrule the comprehensive criteria, but it may encourage nitpicking on the use of summary style, whether a text that long can be said to be brilliant prose, etc.
I am, inexpert that I am on the Authorship issue, unable to answer your query for a book as example; but neither is a Wikipedia article a book. A single chapter in a book should be quite narrow in its focus, if that helps reconcile your analogy? And perhaps if you think of all of Wikipedia as the “book”, where the Shakespeare Authorship Question is covered in this chapter (article) and the contents of the section in question is covered in all of the rest of the book (in practice spread among the main WS article, the …life article, and the …plays article. Analogies like this are, of course, dangerous to follow too far, so I'll try to not stretch it any further (it's probably groaning as it is).
My assertion is that this article only needs to cover the mainstream view if the Authorship parts of it are done poorly; and my argument is that in this article they are done well and hence the mainstream section is not needed.
I'll beg off providing suggestions for how to avoid the terminology issue for now, but I'll try to practice some placing of the money in the general vicinity of my mouth when I get the chance. I've no doubt any alternative would be more cumbersome, so the question becomes whether they become too cumbersome and inelegant. --Xover (talk) 21:57, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I think I've explained my reasoning for this suggestion as well as I can, and as it appears to be ineffectual, I'll drop this as unlikely to ever achieve consensus. There is a significant component of subjective judgement built in to the argument (there is no bright line rule for article length); I am myself only half persuaded on the point; and it can easily be remedied at a later date if it should become an issue at FAC. --Xover (talk) 02:07, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Missing citations

Looking closer at the Historical evidence for Shakespeare's authorship section for a different reason I noticed a couple of issues.

First, the 4th and 5th paragraphs are entirely uncited. Generally there should be a cite at least for each paragraph. In addition, none of the direct quotes in these sections are cited (WP:V requires citations for all direct quotes). I've placed some {{cn}} tags to point the way.

Finally, the quotes in the 4th paragraph themselves are a bit hard to read and confusing. I'm assuming the names each quote starts with are the names of the Stationers registering the works in question, but it's really hard to parse what I'm guessing is tabular data when simply serialized into flat text. Could the names perhaps be omitted or placed in parenthesis after the quote? Further reducing readability is the use of links inside the quotations. I see why they're there, but one should generally not link terms inside quotes (MOS:LINK#General points on linking style, bullet 4), in order to maintain readability. --Xover (talk) 17:38, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Xover do you think those should be converted into modern spelling? I've been doing that for literary works. Oh, and I didn't cite them because they're verbatim from official records and the source is given in the text. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:43, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
One of the tenets of WP:V is “say where you read it”; the text gives the Stationer's register—a primary source, incidentally, so best not relied on even for this—and you probably didn't actually get it from that source but rather from some intermediary source, which is then what should be cited. In addition, the point of Verifiability is for the reader to be able to verify; and very few people have the opportunity to check the actual Stationer's register, so it would be good to give some source they can actually check. There is also the issue of interpretation and authenticity; it would be better to get register's entries through, say, Chambers, so that it is his interpretation rather than ours, of the accuracy and authenticity of the relevant record.
As for giving the quotes in modernized spelling, I'm generally not a fan of that for Elizabethan english: the meaning is sufficiently clear in the original, avoids the odd possibility of introducing inaccuracies in modernization, and the original adds a bit of purely stylistic flair that I'm partial to. My rule of thumb is to never translate or alter unless strictly needed. Iff a modernized version is to be used I would argue that we should have a citeable source specifically for the modernized version, as modernizing it ourselves would be original research (others would, I'm sure, disagree). --Xover (talk) 18:09, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
I concur with Xover's points here.Nishidani (talk) 22:24, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
I could provide refs to Chambers or several other sources, but I prefer to use references that deal directly with the authorship question, namely those two cited in that section, Martin and Montague. I don't have those to hand at the moment, and they're in remote storage. I have called for them and I should have them sometime tomorrow or Saturday. Meanwhile I'll ransack a few other sources I have to hand and see if they can be used. Tom Reedy (talk) 02:49, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm going to go ahead and furnish cites for the direct quotations from a scholarly source and add the authorship refs when I get the books. Tom Reedy (talk) 15:56, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Are Freud And Mark Twain Still Alive And 'Campaigning' On The Authorship Controversy?

I drew attention to the problem with this paragraph in the lede earlier on this page, and my comment that the unidentified 'prominent public figures' should be identified so that readers could determine for themselves whether they can logically be included among the alleged 'They' who are campaigning. Tom then added Shapiro as a further reference for the first sentence below, and as anyone can see, virtually everyone whom Shapiro names on that page is dead, and can hardly be included among the alleged 'They' who are campaigning.

Despite the scholastic consensus,[13] a relatively small but highly visible and diverse assortment of supporters, including some prominent public figures,[14] have questioned the traditional authorship attribution.[15] They campaign through publications, organizations, online discussion groups, and conferences to gain public acceptance of the authorship question as a legitimate field of academic inquiry and to promote one or another of the various authorship candidates.[16]

Tom needs to explain exactly who among the 'prominent public figures' named by Nicholl and Shapiro (Tom's sources) actually is still alive and 'campaigning' on the authorship issue.

And as I indicated earlier, this paragraph should be deleted from the lede for two reasons. Firstly, it conflates the living with the dead, and secondly, it's an entire paragraph in the lede about a 'highly visible and diverse assortment of supporters' and 'some prominent public figures' who are never identified or dealt with in extenso later in the article, so what is this paragraph doing in the lede anyway, given the stated function of the lede in WP:LEDE?NinaGreen (talk) 19:58, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

The sentences you refer to are summaries of some of the material in the section History of the authorship question. That's about as in extenso as it gets in this article. I trust you are able to make the connections between the summaries and the specifics. Tom Reedy (talk) 21:06, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Nina, you know perfectly well who the relevant living public figures are. Yiou are notr really asking for information. If you want to add sources naming specific figures you can. So what is the point of this. Again, it seems to be pure obstruction. Paul B (talk) 21:14, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Paul, I don't 'know perfectly well who the relevant living public figures are', NOR DO YOU. Tom has cited Nicholl and Shapiro as his sources for the names of these 'prominent public figures', and as I mentioned, most of the prominent persons cited in Shapiro are dead (I don't have a copy of Nicholl handy to check Nicholl's list). So could you and Tom please stop the refusal to provide sources, which constitutes Tendentious Editing, and name on this page all the 'prominent public figures' cited by both Nicholl and Shapiro so that all editors can see them? We can then eliminate those who are dead, and determine whether any of the still-living 'prominent public figures' cited by Nicholl and Shapiro are actually 'campaigning' on the authorship issue. If not, the paragraph can be deleted.NinaGreen (talk) 21:33, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I just noticed that there is a link to the Nicholl article in the references, and he's merely partially quoting Shapiro:

What, aside from international fame, did Mark Twain, Helen Keller, Henry James, Sigmund Freud, Charlie Chaplin and Orson Welles have in common? The answer is that they all believed that the plays and poems attributed to William Shakespeare were really written by someone else.

The last time I checked, they were ALL dead (and let's not forget that that was Tom's sole source before I raised the issue earlier on this page). So why has Tom included them in the SAQ lede as alive and CAMPAIGNING on the authorship issue? The paragraph needs to be deleted.NinaGreen (talk)

Are you incapable of reading the entire article? "One could continue it through to the present day (Malcolm X, Enoch Powell, Derek Jacobi, Mark Rylance, Jim Jarmusch . . .)".
You're not doing yourself any favours by continuing your disruptive behaviour. You've alienated just about every editor who has tried to work with you by these hectoring and badgering tactics. Tom Reedy (talk) 21:44, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Tom, the last time I checked, ascertaining the facts was not called 'hectoring and badgering tactics'. And the last time I checked, Malcolm X and Enoch Powell were also DEAD. So that leaves Sir Derek Jacobi, Mark Rylance and Jim Jarmusch, hardly an extensive list of 'prominent public figures'. I've never heard of Jim Jarmusch, and I suspect most people in the U.S. have never heard of Mark Rylance, by which I mean no disrespect to Mark Rylance. The point is that we're not talking Freud and Mark Twain here, names instantly recognizable to everyone, and whom everyone would automatically include in a list of 'prominent public figures' without saying 'Who's that?'. An even more important point is that none of your sources establishes that Sir Derek Jacobi, Mark Rylance and Jim Jarmusch is CAMPAIGNING 'through publications, organizations, online discussion groups, and conferences to gain public acceptance of the authorship question as a legitimate field of academic inquiry and to promote one or another of the various authorship candidates'. The entire paragraph is sleight of hand. When one really looks into the cited sources, they don't support anything in the paragraph. It's all interpretation, synthesis and original research, all of which is directly contrary to Wikipedia policy. The paragraph should be deleted.NinaGreen (talk) 21:56, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
"Ascertaining the facts" involves reading past the introductory paragraph of an article, which you don't seem interested in doing. Don't expect any further response from me. You're a waste of valuable time. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:35, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Nina, you know that Jacobi wrote the preface to Great Oxford and the he and Rylance have collaborated on a play about the the issue. I'm surprised you have not heard of Jarmush. He's rather famous, but that's neither here nor there. There are, I'm sure, many famous people I've never heard of. My ignorance of them does not stop them being prominent public figures. I think the prominent signatories to the Declaration of Reasonable Doubt might reasonably be described as such too, particularlu those who made their signing an 'event'. Of course they are not the ones who are most active. It's the non-famous committed individuals like yourself who put the hours in. But the famous do lend support, make public statements etc. That's being part of campaigns. You know this. Paul B (talk) 22:07, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Paul, actually I don't KNOW all these things. But leaving that aside, what's the point of trying to establish what I know or don't know? We're concerning with accurately sourcing things for a Wikipedia article. Where in Wikipedia policy does it state that if Nina Green knows something, it doesn't need to be accurately sourced in the SAQ article?NinaGreen (talk) 02:59, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Mark Rylance is very well known (even to a pleb like me) and he can certainly be said to be actively campaigning. He is on several of the 'anti' websites. Poujeaux (talk) 22:55, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
The complaint is a misprision based on a failure to understand the function of the historic present ('have questioned') referring to 'assortment of supporters', of which 'prominent public figures' is only a parenthetical subset. The second 'they' , in 'they campaign' (present tense) would normally be taken as referring to 'assortment of supporters', and not as governed by 'prominent public figures'. Thirdly, I gave three newspaper examples of 'campaign' being used recently of de Verean supporters (aside from the fact that one shouldn't be questioning what an RS like Shapiro says). It is not good practice to ignore an answer, and then harp on the original question, Nina.Nishidani (talk) 23:17, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Right, "have questioned" being the operative verb phrase here, which is indiscriminate as far as breath. God only knows what criticisms she could level at Shakespeare's grammar. Tom Reedy (talk) 02:25, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

"Paul, I don't 'know perfectly well who the relevant living public figures are', NOR DO YOU. Tom has cited Nicholl and Shapiro as his sources for the names of these 'prominent public figures', and as I mentioned, most of the prominent persons cited in Shapiro are dead (I don't have a copy of Nicholl handy to check Nicholl's list). So could you and Tom please stop the refusal to provide sources, which constitutes Tendentious Editing, and name on this page all the 'prominent public figures' cited by both Nicholl and Shapiro so that all editors can see them?"

This is exactly the same behaviour past Oxfordian editors exhibited and the reason why so many extended quotes accompany the references in the lede and other sections. The tactic of then selectively quoting the given reference is also a familiar example of disruptive and tendentious behaviour that I thought was ancient history on this page until the past few weeks. Tom Reedy (talk) 02:43, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Tom, this is "exactly" why earlier editors challenged your statements! It's because, as in this instance, the sources you cite DON'T SUPPORT THE STATEMENTS YOU CITE THEM FOR! At most, the sources you cite support a few isolated words in whatever it is you've written. All the rest is your interpretation, synthesis and original research. When you start citing sources which actually fully support what you've written in the article, the challenges will stop. It's you that's the problem, not those challenging you.NinaGreen (talk) 02:53, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

My point stands. The paragraph is utter sleight of hand. Not a single thing in it is actually supported by any of the cited sources, and it is all interpretation, synthesis and original research. As if this weren't bad enough, no-one referred to in it, whether it be the 'prominent public figures' or the alleged 'relatively small but highly visible and diverse assortment of supporters' is ever identified, nor is the topic dealt with in extenso later in the article (where in the article do we hear in extenso of the alleged campaigning of Sir Derek Jacobi, Mark Rylance and Jim Jarmusch?). So what is a paragraph about them doing in the lede? But why do I ask? :-) I will merely be answered by more and more convoluted defences of the indefensible. Once something has been put into the SAQ article by Tom Reedy or Nishidani, no matter how poorly thought out, poorly written or poorly sourced, it's set in stone, and removing it is more difficult than taking down the Berlin Wall. As for the 'historical present', balderdash. It's poor and confusing writing, not the 'historical present'.NinaGreen (talk) 02:47, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
There is no need to use so many words, or to post so often. Just find one of the egregious errors of which you complain and use simple language to explain the problem in a new section (that is, explain the problem that you see in some text currently in the article—there should be no need to mention other editors). Johnuniq (talk) 03:02, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Johnuniq, I have explained the problems with the final paragraph of the lede clearly and succinctly many times over, and if anyone were actually listening, the paragraph would have been deleted long ago.NinaGreen (talk) 03:12, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Another point which could and should be made is that the Nicholl citation is merely a book review of Contested Will, and logically Shapiro should be cited, not Nicholl, for anything found in Contested Will. If Nicholl goes beyond what can be found in Shapiro, then one has to look very carefully at those additional comments to determine whether they should be cited in the SAQ article, considering that Nicholl is a journalist, not someone with a Ph.D. in Elizabethan literature or someone who teaches Shakespeare courses at a university.NinaGreen (talk) 18:02, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Lack Of Organization In The SAQ Article

Those primarily responsible for the SAQ article, Tom Reedy and Nishidani, seem unable to appreciate how completely disorganized the article is. It goes back and forth between the current state of the authorship controversy and the historical aspect. Moreover the article strives to prove that Shakespeare of Stratford wrote the Shakespeare canon. This distorts the focus of the entire article, which should be on the development and current status of the authorship controversy. The article should take as a given that it's the consensus of the Shakespeare establishment and the general public that Shakespeare of Stratford wrote the canon, and focus on the issue potential readers of the article obviously want to know about, namely how did the controversy develop, what evidence is there for it, and what is its current status. I've made a number of edits in which I've attempted to address aspects of the lack of organization in the article, but they've all been instantly reverted by Tom Reedy and Nishidani before editors have had a chance to consider them in context to see how they address the organizational problems.NinaGreen (talk) 19:48, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Nina, please take a deep breath and then read WP:AGF. Your continued accusations against Tom and Nishidani amount to personal attacks and are quite disruptive, and counter to the goal of building the encyclopedia.
The usual way editing happens on Wikipedia (particularly on controversial articles) is to discuss changes (particularly controversial changes, such as deleting entire sections) on the talk page and to achieve consensus for them. To repeatedly delete or rearrange large swathes of the article to give “editors … a chance to consider them in context” is just plain disruptive behavior.
Please assume good faith on the part of the editors here, take as given that they are all here to help improve the encyclopedia, and on the talk page make specific and concrete suggestions for incremental changes, and be prepared that others will disagree. A measure of humility would serve you quite a lot better than your current, confrontational, approach. --Xover (talk) 20:15, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Xover, take a deep breath yourself :-), and notice that in every instance I have put my edits up for discussion on the Talk page. Take another deep breath :-), and consider that giving specific reasons why a Wikipedia article lacks organization is NOT a personal attack, nor does it have anything to do with 'assuming good faith' or 'humility'. Take and third deep breath :-), and consider that asking that potential edits be left in place long enough for editors and administrators of this page to consider their impact in context is about as far removed from 'disruptive behaviour' as anything could possibly be. The SAQ article is either unfocussed in terms of its primary objective (informing potential readers about the authorship controversy) or it isn't. The SAQ article is either disorganized, or it isn't. Those issues need to be considered objectively. I've looked at the SAQ article objectively, having had the advantage of not having been involved with it, and I can see that it needs serious and substantial improvement along both those lines, and that in the process the article could be considerably shortened by removing a lot of the redundancy in which it abounds.NinaGreen (talk) 20:43, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Lack of organization is a general complaint and not a specific suggestion for improvement (it is also quite a subjective question). Try to limit yourself to one specific and narrow issue at the time; explain why you feel it is problematic; and suggest concrete improvements that would remove the problem. Be prepared that other editors may disagree with you; and accept that their opinion is as valid as yours, and that even those that disagree with you do so honestly and with good reason. And when there is disagreement, unilaterally making changes to the article will only inflame the situation (your motivation for doing so is irrelevant, the result is disruptive). Expected practice on Wikipedia in these situations is propose the changes on the talk page first and to convince the other editors to your point of view (achieving consensus). Your accusations against Tom and Nishidani will pretty much just ensure that you will never be able to persuade them; and they are highly likely to prejudice your case with the other editors on this page. If you cannot persuade the other editors of the merits of your proposed changes you will not achieve much with the article, and attempts to edit against the consensus will only lead to conflict without achieving much of anything. --Xover (talk) 21:12, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Xover, as is evident elsewhere on this page, I've made SPECIFIC suggestions concerning the lack of organization, particularly with respect to the lede. Let's focus on the lede. My version of the lede eliminates a number of problems which I've identified in the current lede. Perhaps my version can still be improved upon. The best way to do that is to place my version in the article for a few days so that editors can (1) see how it increases the visual impact of the article and entices potential readers, rather than losing them in a welter of words as the current lede does, and (2) whether there is anything in the current lede which would not be better eliminated entirely OR placed elsewhere in the article. What's difficult about that? Nothing.NinaGreen (talk) 21:27, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

No, let's stay away form the lede for now. The lede should be a summary of the rest of the article, so it's probably the last part of it that one should tackle. It is also, by nature of summarization (that by definition paints with broad strokes), the most likely to be controversial. Rather, find some specific and manageable issue you see in the main article and propose a way to improve it. To “see how it increases the visual impact” is not needed; merely an explanation of what the problem is and how you propose to improve it. Your proposed changes will then turn out to be either uncontroversial, and the corresponding edits can be made without further ado, or other editors will disagree, and discussion will be needed with the goal of achieving consensus. Again, if you fail to convince the other editors of the merits of your proposed changes, you are highly unlikely to be able to effect any change in the article. --Xover (talk) 21:48, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Xover, no, let's not stay away from the lede. The lede sets the focus for the entire article. If the article is already written (as this one is) and is unfocussed and disorganized, then that problem can't be fixed by making the lede conform to an unfoccussed and disorganized article. The solution is to write a lede which clearly indicates where the article should be, and is, going, and then prune and rearrange the article to conform to the clear focus in the lede. My version of the lede is clear and focussed. Perhaps it can be improved upon. If so, I'd be interested in hearing how that can be done.NinaGreen (talk) 22:01, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but that is putting the cart before the horse. The lede summarizes the article; you cannot write the lede and then derive the article from it, or at least it would not be an efficient or productive way to go about it. If the article suffers from so many glaring errors as you imply, then surely there are more manageable and appropriate ones to start with than your fundamental and sweeping complaints about the lede? I would also suggest that you try to ask rather than assert: (almost) every editor on this page has more experience with editing Wikipedia and the project's practice and policy than you do, so asking them for their help—rather than assert that they are wrong and in violation of the policies—is far more likely to have a productive result. --Xover (talk) 22:21, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Xover, no, it is not putting the cart before the horse. The only way this lengthy and disorganized article will ever regain focus is to begin with a focussed lede, and prune and reorganize the article in conformity with it. Also, let's not confuse asking other editors for help with stating that other editors are in violation of Wikipedia policy when they ARE in violation of Wikipedia policy. The final paragraph of the lede IS in violation of Wikipedia policy. The cited sources don't support the statements made in it, and the latter consist of interpretation, synthesis and original research.NinaGreen (talk) 03:10, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Nina, I have now repeatedly asked you to focus on a single manageable (actionable) problem somewhere else than the lede, and explained why. Your response is to keep harping about the lede and the policy violations you see in other editors. I'm trying quite hard to help you here, but you appear to be refusing that help. If you are unwilling to conform yourself to the behavioural policies, guidelines, and expectations on Wikipedia I fear you will achieve very little except antagonize and frustrate other editors. So please try to work with us rather than this constant barrage to attempt to “win” over the other editors on this article. --Xover (talk) 07:08, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Nina, there is a right way and a wrong way to go about trying to introduce changes into the article, especially the important lead. See my followup to your section about Bardolatry, which has produced a slight but so-far-unreverted change in the lead. Poujeaux (talk) 22:40, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Nina, I have told you that your proposed lede is much too short, per the section Length of the style guideline WP:LEDE.[7] You ignored that. This is a very long article, and even if your measures for shortening it were to gain consensus, which is not currently looking likely, it would still be a very long article. The lede needs to be far longer than your suggestion in order to cover the article and comply with the guideline. The current lede is about right, length-wise. Oh god I hate having to repeat myself all the time; life is too short. Please respond to what people say. It's not a discussion if there's no dialogue. Bishonen | talk 23:08, 6 January 2011 (UTC).

Bishonen, if there's something important that's been LEFT OUT of my version of the lede, just tell me what it is. Don't just tell me the lede's too short, and that Wikipedia policy requires a long lede for a long article. What's missing? That's what I want to know.NinaGreen (talk) 03:18, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

This one? I'll try, since you request it. Your version covers a) the history of the authorship question, b) the state of the authorship question today. I.e. it's all about the section "History of the authorship question", with its subsections. That's it. Obviously everything can't be explicated in the lede, but I think the following matters/sections, which your version doesn't allude to, need to be mentioned:

  • That some anti-S's believe no one but a highly educated nobleman or court insider could have written the plays, and why. ("Anti-S thesis and argument")
  • "Shakespeare's background/Shakespeare's education and literacy"
  • "Historical evidence for Shakespeare's authorship"
  • "Evidence for Shakespeare's authorship from his works"

(These things are all mentioned in the lede currently in place.)

Bishonen | talk 14:59, 9 January 2011 (UTC).

Why The Duplication?

Can someone please tell me why the entire History of the Authorship Question section in the SAQ article cannot be deleted from the SAQ article and incorporated in the separate Wikipedia article History of the Shakespeare Authorship Question?NinaGreen (talk) 03:22, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Deletion is not appropriate since there has to be due mention here, see WP:SUMMARY. Naturally an article on the SAQ needs to outline the history since that is crucial to the topic. Johnuniq (talk) 03:36, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Nina, some months ago, Katherine Duncan-Jones, one of the world's leading authorities on Shakespeare and his age, spoke of supporters of de Vere's candidacy 'currently carpet-bombing Wikipedia.' If you can't make your points lucidly, to the evidence, there is little point in persisting in this mode. I am absolutely convinced you believe you are right. I am also convinced you are unable to understand what your interlocutors are saying, and the result is a cameo of the whole 160 years interaction between the schools of conspiracy, and mainstream scholarship, which has listened, analyses and replied, to no effect. Scholarship works consensually, despite the deep divides in its interpretative ranks. I see no evidence that you are listening to what is being said. I think enough is enough. Nishidani (talk) 05:23, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
I think you are overstating the case. If you were to argue that the section is almost as long as the separate 'Main article', and that it should be reduced, and suggest particular parts of it that could be moved into the other article, I think you might have a valid point and we could discuss it. Poujeaux (talk) 10:32, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

My question remains unanswered. Xover has suggested on the Peer Review page (copied elsewhere on this page) that the very lengthy History of the Authorship section in the SAQ article should be deleted in its entirety. There is another separate Wikipedia article entitled History of the Shakespeare Authorship Question. Why the duplication?NinaGreen (talk) 17:46, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

One problem with having two pages which cover the same ground is that one of them can be edited and improved (or not, as the case may be) without the other being changed. History of the Shakespeare authorship question should, surely, be the definitive page for the history. I should think all that is needed at Shakespeare authorship question is a summary, with a link above it. Moonraker2 (talk) 18:02, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
I've edited my PR comments (diff) to clarify that I am referring to the Evidence for Shakespeare's authorship section (section 3 in the current article) and not History of the authorship question (section 4 in the current article). Mea culpa.
Incidentally Nina, I think this is exemplary of why the communication on this page is not proceeding more smoothly. You have a tendency to just grab whatever “evidence” and “support” that you can for whatever point you're currently trying to argue, rather than actually carefully read what others are saying. Granted I'd slipped up and used the wrong section number in my PR comments, but to guard against that very possibility I'd started by specifying the section name; and even without the name the argument put forward should have made clear which section I was referring to. Further you claim your “question remains unanswered”, but that is obviously inaccurate: Poujeaux did answer it above. He also asked for specific suggestions on how to address the issue—just deleting it outright would not be appropriate, as Johnuniq explained—but instead of responding to this request you just grabbed the next argument you could find that seemed to support your case.
In short, I see very little effort to work with the other editors here, and quite a lot of effort put into getting your own way.
And when you exhibit so little apparent willingness to work with the other editors, my willingness to make an extra effort to accommodate you is entirely absent: I have far more productive uses of my time on Wikipedia than to go round and round, endlessly, with someone who shows no signs of wanting to collaborate. --Xover (talk) 01:56, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Xover, rather than just admit you made an error which mislead me and doubtless mislead others, you then go on to find fault with me for having been mislead(!), and avoid the real issue, which is that there is a obvious and entirely unnecessary duplication. There is absolutely no need for two extremely lengthy and detailed expositions of the history of the Shakespeare authorship controversy in Wikipedia, one a separate article, and the other a very lengthy section in the SAQ article. The latter needs to be merged into the former. Let's get on with doing something productive, i.e. merging the latter into the former.NinaGreen (talk) 02:43, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

One good reason is that the History of the Shakespeare authorship question is a trashy article, more or less in the same blobby state of ill-organized patchworks of raw material, which, to shape to a minimum level of acceptability, would require months of work. It is not a reduplication, but a very different approach and emphasis, with decidedly different content. Of course, one could simply erase the present content, or shift it to the talk page, and dump the History as it is outlined in this article, there, and you would have a pretty fine survey. Whatever, if a move is made, it effectively means that, with the expiry of a full year of single-minded effort to make this article acceptable, its authors and collaborators would be asked, before this article is completed, to jump over and do the same on a contiguous page, where they would be obliged to meld the two histories, in a potentially conflictual editing atmosphere.
I think one has to be (a) orderly (b) patient (c) and not ask editors of proven dedication to take on simultaneously an excessive load of work, while they are committed to see that the primary article meets the exacting criteria of FA. So far I think we have, as opposed to last year, sufficient help now to tackle in succession, after this, the History article, the Oxfordian theory article, the candidate articles, including revamping the de Vere article. Life is short, this is a volunteer business, and I'm rather worried of us asking, short of the FA process, Tom in particular to take on the extra task of ironing out the History article. I'm not per se opposed to some move like this. I just think we are not close enough to FA submission to determine whether the outcome of an FA examination rides on the length of that section. For as Xover admits, it is a fine piece of crafted scholarship, and should not be dislocated, and plastered into a lousy mishmash of a page, except for reasons of sterm procedural necessity. Of course, on could argue for the reverse, namely obliterating the History of the Shakespeare authorship question page and just keeping the whole subject here. I personally dislike the tendency to fork, make subpages and proliferate articles on wikipedia. It speaks more of personal editorial battles for control, rather than respect for the reader or the subject.Nishidani (talk) 04:17, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Nishidani, you raise some good points. The bottom line is that there should not be two lengthy sections in Wikipedia on the same topic, one an independent article and one a very lengthy section in the SAQ article. As you suggest, one solution would be to delete the independent article and move the lengthy section in the SAQ article over to replace it. Could we not all have a close look at the two 'historical' accounts to see whether that's feasible, and then try to reach consensus on that point?NinaGreen (talk) 04:58, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

As remarked, the only grounds for querying this section were that the text as a whole might exceed the optimal limits for FA articles. The other article hasn't even got off the ground. To castrate this of its testicular splendour, and relocate it on a mutilated page is a severe measure, which would require particular surgical labour to restore to anatomical decency. We are still in the area of technical hypothesis: Xover has a good deal of experience in this regard. But I would be reluctant to move in that direction until further neutral input from FA authorities is forthcoming. In the meantime, I think that the best procedure is to suspend calls for drastic surgery (being just fresh from reading Gabriel Weston's Direct Red) and get back to the point-by-point recension of what experts say FA review will require. This issue can be left to the last minute, once a consensus has been obtained as to the adequacy of the whole article in terms of FA criteria. Those reviewers who have been generous enough to make detailed lists of points that need to be ironed out have found so far that each and every specific query has been met with by a ready and reedy response, in terms of adjusting particulars. In short, this point is valid, but, I think, preocedurally premature, and would only distract eyes from the nittygritty of line by line analysis for style, format, neutrality and reference adequacy.Nishidani (talk) 05:28, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Yes, this article is already written. The time to implement any substantial rewrites or reorganisation of the article is long past, especially given the praise it has garnered from independent reviewers. No justification exists for any major editing. The purpose of the peer review is to discover any glaring defects. Neither the history section nor the extended notes were singled out by independent reviewers, and only one reviewer, Xover, mentioned its length. If it went to FA review today I would bet on its acceptance. Tom Reedy (talk) 06:01, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Tom, re 'the praise it has garnered from independent reviewers'. How many independent reviewers have praised the article, and where are their comments to be found? I realize you've put a lot of work in on the article, but I don't think it's appropriate to foreclose further editing on the basis that it has been praised by a handful of unnamed independent reviewers.NinaGreen (talk) 06:36, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

This is probably not going to prove to be a popular comment around here, but I just read through the History of the Authorship section in the SAQ article and had the distinct impression I was rereading Shapiro's Contested Will, which I read a month or so ago. Is there any point in rehashing Shapiro's book in this section of the SAQ article? Would it not be preferable to refer to the fact that all this material on the history of the authorship controversy can be found in Contested Will?NinaGreen (talk) 05:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Why not just blank all Wikipedia articles and replace them with lists of books where the information can be found? Tom Reedy (talk) 06:01, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Tom, the problem is that I felt I was reading Shapiro when I read this section of the SAQ article. There are a lot of different citations in that section of the article, not just citations from Shapiro, but nonetheless reading that section gave me the feeling that I was reading Shapiro. There just might be too much similarity between the two.NinaGreen (talk) 06:33, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Why is how you feel a problem for anybody but you? It's certainly no concern for the editors of this article, whose consideration should be for those looking for information about the subject. Tom Reedy (talk) 14:55, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Tom, it's called plagiarism.NinaGreen (talk) 19:24, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
You don't need to fill the page with outdents.
Plagiarism is not proved by your feelings or anyone else's. I know you're exploring any avenue possible to squelch this article from attaining FA, but your charges of plagiarism are probably the most ridiculous tactic you've come up with so far. Plenty of plagiarism software programs are available on the internet at no charge; I've used them myself in attribution studies. If you think we plagiarised the history or any other section, you need to do the required work and offer up more than your "feelings" as evidence, but I can tell you right now you're wasting your time as usual. Try not to waste ours. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:37, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Tom, stop attributing motives to me. I read the history section in the SAQ article and was struck by how much it resembled Shapiro's Contested Will which I had read for the first time recently. No-one reading a Wikipedia article should get that impression. I have not said or implied that there was any deliberate plagiarism, but sometimes it is possible to incorporate too much of an author's work.NinaGreen (talk) 20:02, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Can anyone help with this? When I tried to view the edit history of History of the Shakespeare authorship question to see who contributed to that article, I couldn't get past the last 50 edits.NinaGreen (talk) 05:41, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Actually, historically there was no reduplication. It was created on March 7 by Smatprt as a POV fork to retain, conserve or isolate a version of this section of the SAQ article against the sort of radical revision towards NPOV that we had begun to undertake. It has only 57 edits to it, is replete with misleading, outdated or false information, and has no visible raison d'etre other than as furnishing a POV redoubt. The lead is pure nonsense. Paul Barlow did several edits, if I recall, to try and rid the page of the Wilmot furphy, which Smatprt was fond of. The history of SAQ can be summed up very briefly, since the whole subject tends to simply repeat positions made a hundred years ago. The more I examine that page, the more I tend to think that we should follow our original remit which, if I recall, was not to fork off pages, but unify them into one or two. At the time, forks were a tactical commonplace, and ScienceApologist asked that we put an end to the practice. I suggest the page is useless. If there is anything significant there which is not here, then make a list for considering its return to the mother article, the one we are editing here.Nishidani (talk) 08:43, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

The SAQ article contains 7 links to other 'main' articles. The SAQ article repeats much of the information contained in these 7 'main' articles. The History of the Authorship section in the SAQ article is about the same length as the alleged 'main' article on the History of the Shakespeare Authorship. All this duplication makes no sense. Decisions need to be made about what belongs where.NinaGreen (talk) 19:57, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

RfC procedure

I have posted a notice on Nina's talk page asking her to cease her disruptive behaviour and to conform her participation to Wikipedia policies and procedures. WP:RFC/USER procedure requires that at least two editors contact an RfC/U candidate on their talk page about their behaviour before filing a case. If any other editor feels the same as I do about this, I'd appreciate your input there. Tom Reedy (talk) 05:26, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I would, but I don't think I should. I posted a comment in the preceding section independently of your note here, and though it is coincidence, it doesn't look like it.)Nishidani (talk) 05:34, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
I have put a comment on her page but I do not think an RFC process is appropriate because (a) she is quite a new user and (b) the disruptive behaviour (in the last few days) have been on the talk page not the article page. Poujeaux (talk) 14:27, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Whether an RfC process is appropriate will be determined by her response, which is completely up to her. She has been an editor for seven months, and she has been directed to the appropriate Wikipages to learn policies and guidelines several times, nor is this the first time she has been asked to mend her behaviour. Tom Reedy (talk) 15:54, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

All my comments on this Talk page concern improvements to the SAQ article, and when I made any edits (all of which were instantly reverted) I placed them for discussion on the Talk page. The untrue allegation of 'disruptive behaviour' constitutes a personal ad hominem attack, contrary to Wikipedia policy.NinaGreen (talk) 17:50, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. The expression "her disruptive behaviour" must be defamatory. A double standard is being applied here, under which constructive criticism by Nina Green is "disruptive" but personal abuse directed at her is not. Moonraker2 (talk) 18:07, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
It is commendable to support other editors, however it is not appropriate to do so without referring to specific incidents to justify your comments. In particular, it is not advisable to use loaded terms like "defamatory", and it is not acceptable to claim that personal abuse has been directed at an editor without any evidence—do not make serious claims like that without at least linking to a discussion that attempts to support the claims. Searching this current talk page shows three editors have referred to "disruptive behaviour", and have explained what they meant (i.e. the particular behaviour was outlined); if you are going to suggest abuse has occurred, you must specify what you are talking about. Johnuniq (talk) 00:44, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Johnuniq, please provide links to those three instances of alleged 'disruptive behaviour' in which 'the particular behaviour was outlined'. I have not engaged in anything which can in any way be characterized as 'disruptive behaviour', and to do so is indeed defamatory. You have now repeated the defamation without providing links to the instances to which you yourself refer.NinaGreen (talk) 02:37, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I do not understand your comment: Moonraker2 implied that editors have directed personal abuse at you; my reply states that serious claims like that need at least a link with some attempted support (directing personal abuse at an editor is totally prohibited; an unjustified claim of abuse is in itself abuse). It is completely in accord with procedures here to use neutral language to assert that actions taken by an editor are disruptive (as just stated, some justification is required). We need to see whether Moonraker2's claim of personal abuse is a reference to someone using neutral language to describe actions taken by an editor, or whether actual abuse has occurred. In anticipation that the claim might have involved the word "disruptive", I searched this talk page for that term, and confirmed what I reported just above. On a purely factual basis, your claim that I have "repeated the defamation" is false, even if "defamation" were an appropriate term. It would be a very good idea to read the loaded terms link that I provided above before continuing. Johnuniq (talk) 09:35, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Johnuniq, let's be very clear. To falsely accuse anyone of 'disruptive behaviour' is defamation, and you have now repeated the defamation twice.NinaGreen (talk) 19:23, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

The word "defamatory", is not a "loaded term", it has a precise meaning which I understand rather well. I might respectfully point out that where some of us live defamation is a criminal offence, which should make it rather hard to justify. I see no one has replied to what I said about a double standard. Moonraker2 (talk) 20:22, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
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