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Did you know nomination

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by BlueMoonset talk 06:31, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Closing as abandoned after being pulled due to the issues noted below and issues still outstanding weeks later

(
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Sudanese man holding his residual arm after amputation
Sudanese man holding his residual arm after amputation

Created by FuzzyMagma (talk). Self-nominated at 20:20, 20 October 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/September 1983 Laws; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: Yes
  • Interesting: Yes
  • Other problems: Yes
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: All issues with NPOV were resolved. Material copied from a public domain source is properly attributed. The material copied from another article is only a few hundred bytes. Rjjiii (talk) 19:35, 21 October 2023 (UTC) Updated 06:18, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For WP:NPOV, I see several issues:

  • "symbolically disposing of alcohol" can read as if symbolically also applies to "implementing hudud punishments like public amputations". Consider moving the alcohol disposal into a separate sentence or rephrasing.
Done
Done
  • "reflecting a failure to accommodate minority rights and leverage Islam's rejection of racism" could read as being about the condition, the agreement, or self-governance. Consider breaking this into a separate sentence.
could not paraphrase so removed it.
  • "Nimeiry attributed Sudan's economic success to the zakat and taxation act..." Did Sudan have economic success at this time, or did he falsely claim that Sudan did? I would consider removing this sentence unless there is more context. The next few sentences go into much detail on how the economy suffered.
I changed the sentence structure to put the Nimeiry's claims and facts back to back without the need to use "[[

MOS:EDITORIAL|falsely]]" (or editorialising)

  • The source says that the 1983 conflict resulted from "Southerners' disappointment with the regime's failure to fulfill the Addis Ababa accords, especially regarding economic development and the issue of the discovery of oil in the south that would be refined in and exported from the north." The way it's worded in the article here does not make the causes behind "end of the Addis Ababa Agreement of 1972" clear and could to imply that the conflict caused the agreement to fail when I think the source is saying that it happened because the agreement had already failed.
reworded

The authorship of the photo is detailed in the link. Sudan's photograph laws summarized here:[1]

Mostly the article is fantastic and compliant with DYK rules. I wrote a lot about the NPOV issues, but I think they are all easy to fix. I also think the sentences in the "Southern Sudan" section will be easy to paraphrase. Thanks for doing an article on this; I think this will be the first exposure many readers will have to the tragedy. Let me know if you have questions, or let me know when the article is ready, Rjjiii (talk) 19:35, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Rjjiii: Thanks for the detailed review. plagiarism and close paraphrasing does not apply to free text. Hover over ref.13 and you can see the tag for attribution as per Wikipedia:Public domain. same think applies to the material copied from another article as attribution was given in this edit. Fixed NPOV and the hook as suggested (see below)
@FuzzyMagma: It's no problem. Thank you for the thorough explanation. You are 100% correct. Public domain content can be used on Wikipedia, it is attributed in the citation, and the book is a public domain text as it was written for and published by the GPO.[2] I was, it seems, momentarily illiterate when looking at the source. I no longer see any potential NPOV issues. The ALT1 hook is supported by the source, and it's interesting. Let me know which article you do a QPQ on, and I will go ahead and pass this. Rjjiii (talk) 15:55, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Rjjiii: QPQ done FuzzyMagma (talk) 15:59, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@FuzzyMagma: Thanks, Rjjiii (talk) 16:04, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Rjjiii: you don’t need to change or delete the discussion or your previous comments, just indicate at the end that you are happy with fix by using {{subst:DYKtick}}. The closing admin or the admin at the prep area normally take a glance to understand what happened before deciding to include the nom or not.

Per this discussion, I've pulled this hook. It is up to FuzzyMagma whether they want to continue paraphrasing to make the text new, or to withdraw this nomination. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The matching text is already less than one-fifth of the total prose size as you can find here so WP:DYKSPLIT does not apply unless the prose length is less than 1,500 characters which is not. Most of the matched text are phrases like "the Sudanese Brotherhood" or "the 1972 Addis Ababa Agreement". Can you please indicate if a reviewer is needed or not? FuzzyMagma (talk) 20:07, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
dying, the rephrasing done so far might work – what do you think? also, if you want to bring up your other issues with this nomination, now might be the time. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:13, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
my understanding of wp:dyksplit is that, if eligibility is based on the fivefold expansion criterion, the calculation is based on what was present in the nominated article at the time it was created in mainspace, as suggested by wp:dyk5x: "This calculation is made from the last version of the article before the expansion began, even if text from the original was deleted in the process". to me, this makes sense, because otherwise, anyone running afoul of wp:dyksplit (or wp:dyk5x) could easily launder their article by simply paraphrasing the copied material after the issue is pointed out to them. admittedly, though, i've never violated wp:dyksplit myself, so i may not be correctly understanding its finer points.
i can raise the other issues as well, but they may take some time to type up. i'll try to have something in a few days. dying (talk) 21:59, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I had the same thought, dying, but in the end, I think that strict an interpretation doesn't really improve anyone's experience – if someone submits a 4x expansion, we'll give them time to bump it up to five. Appreciate your thoughts whenever you put 'em in :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 22:26, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"because otherwise, anyone running afoul of wp:dyksplit (or wp:dyk5x) could easily launder their article by simply paraphrasing the copied material after the issue is pointed out to them." you don’t see a problem with this statement? really what is going on here?! And are you thanking him for insulting another editor?! This is becoming absurd. I say a word and you call it “personal attack” and "stick" and they slander my work and my personality and you have no problem with that! you actually quick to clap! How am I to edit Wikipedia if I get to be attacked this way while an admin is clapping?
for both of you, what is the issue are you talking about? This editor started with similarity with a different article (see Wikipedia talk:Did you know#september 1983 laws if you forgot), the moment I pointed out the problem with their argument, they ran to a different one and third one and until they landed on this, then you both clinched to to the similarity between Islamism in Sudan and September 1983 Laws articles while both of you just ignored completely that I copied the material when I was was making National reconciliation (Sudan). I ignored all that and just let the whole thing slide to close this, even when you pulled the article, But for some reason embolden the same editor who just thought they can actually continue to disrespect me this way with an admin "Appreciate your thoughts whenever you put 'em in :)" !!! What is going on here!!!
saying that you cannot amend or change an article after nomination is grossly false as the whole process was meant to improve article by having someone to review them. FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:21, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Theleekycauldron and Dying: I have a few questions from all the text above. [1] Are all the issues DYK-specific and regarding dates? I don't see any issues with copyright violations, plagiarism, or broader Wikipedia policies. [2] Is the reason for pulling the DYK this diff [3] where the unpublished draft was used to flesh out an existing article? [3] And if so, how has DYK handled that kind of situation in the past? Regards, Rjjiii (talk) 04:23, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Rjjiii: The nature of the dispute involves copying within Wikipedia: not question of copyright, but of newness. Articles submitted to DYK have to be new, and they're not new if they're substantially copied from articles. In this case, the text was copied to a different mainspace article by FuzzyMagma on August 31, and then recycled to this article on October 20. That makes the text over seven days old at the time of nomination, and therefore not new (at least, that's my current grasp of it). theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 09:40, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
oh, i agree, theleekycauldron. i am happy to be lenient if an expansion was only fourfold, but once you also take into account the text copied from the "Sudanese Greeks" article (earwig comparison here) and the "Legal system of Sudan" article (earwig comparison here) as well as the public domain text (earwig comparison here) that i hadn't even mentioned before to avoid complicating things, i had felt that turning a blind eye to this would have been shirking responsibility.
in any case, i had thought that raising wp:dyksplit was the cleaner option, but it looks like my hand has been forced. i have posted more about my findings at wt:dyk, as the issue is not just present in this nomination. thanks for being patient with me. dying (talk) 08:59, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • This was pulled from prep over three weeks ago, and while it wasn't retranscluded, FuzzyMagma had plenty of time to post here even before they decided to take a break after the recent discussion at ANI. Since they haven't, I'm treating this as an abandoned nomination, and closing it. This decision can always be appealed at WT:DYK, but should be done so in the next seven days. Otherwise, once the article is fully cleaned up and successfully goes through GAN, it can be renominated for DYK at that time. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:31, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

DYK

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@Vaticidalprophet you are right to edit the hook. 1985 is when the coup happened and the law was deactivated. FuzzyMagma (talk) 08:04, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Vaticidalprophet can you make "between" rather than "from" at Template:Did you know/Preparation area 6 FuzzyMagma (talk) 07:18, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Two points

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He claimed a reduction of crime by over 40% within a year due to the new punishments.

1. I think it's safe to say this statement is likely bogus, given the data deficiencies and difficulty of supporting such a claim. Even in the most advanced democracies in the world, it would take far longer than a year to show such a reduction occurred.

2. The article doesn't really go into the ramifications of such amputations. In all likelihood, amputations leading to any so-called "reduction" in crime leads to more poverty and economic destabilization, because you now have a percentage of the population who can't do needed manual labor with two hands. This really needs more independent analysis going forward, because the idea that this leads to a "reduction" in crime and helps society has no rational basis. Viriditas (talk) 20:04, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Two excellent points. I (think I) fixed the 1st one and will look to sources for the 2nd one. FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:57, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Capital punishment

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@FuzzyMagma: Thanks for the article. Capital punishment usually means executions, but this article seems to mention it a few times without that meaning. Does "capital punishment of amputation" involve killing the prisoner at the end or is it just used as an alternative word for hudud? Sdrqaz (talk) 16:20, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

no it does not. It is called Hudud in Islam but I thought Capital punishment may relate the meaning to non muslims readers. please feel free to rephrase it as I think you will be better positioned to make the article more inclusive. FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:56, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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Passed. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:07, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:September 1983 Laws/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: FuzzyMagma (talk · contribs) 12:22, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: PCN02WPS (talk · contribs) 02:18, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Reviewing as part of GARC. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 02:18, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@PCN02WPS, reminder ping. -- asilvering (talk) 00:01, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@FuzzyMagma I am very, very sorry for letting this nom sit for so long without action. I genuinely forgot about it for a while as my free time decreased after school started back up, and now I have been without power for four days following Hurricane Helene. I will get to this as soon as I can, hopefully later today. Thank you for your patience. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 15:00, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PCN02WPS I hope you are not affected by Hurricane Milton and hope you will find time to continue the review FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:45, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Lead

  • "Sudanese president...introduced Islamic sharia laws in Sudan" is a little repetitive; the two links right next to each other are also misleading so that needs to be fixed
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some issues with commas in the last sentence of para 1; can ditch the one after "unlike"
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "policies contributed to Second Sudanese Civil War in southern Sudan" → "to the Second..."
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Background

  • "Sudanese president Gaafar Nimeiry" → "president" is lowercase in the lead and uppercase in this section
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "While legislative attempts to Islamise..." → not a complete sentence
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the "Sudanese Islamic Movement."" → move full stop outside quotes per MOS:LQ
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the period between 1977 and 1985" → "From 1977 to 1985" to simplify wording
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • First sentence is a run-on; the clause "which involved..." is set up like an appositive but is never closed, making the sentence ungrammatical. "especially" needs a comma before it.
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is "Islamic approach" in quotes? What does that mean? Is it different than the "aligning with religious groups..."?
becuase the word "approach" or "path" was used as a term that Nimeiry used - at the time - to talk about this movement. FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Book titles should be italicized, not in quotes. (Also, the first book is missing a closing quote anyway)
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The law, etc

  • Again, why is "Islamic path" in quotes? Is this a term that was widely used or one that you came up with?
changed to approach for consistency but is translated from Arabic FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first sentence is very wordy, what you're saying is "The commencement of the legislation initiated in 1983"; that essentially means "The start of the law started in 1983", which is redundant
fixed and made shorter FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The whole first paragraph is kind of meaningless; "The law started, which resulted in laws and directives being introduced to enforce the law and other doctrines" - some specifics would be helpful
see above this comment FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "resulting in the introduction of several directives and laws to enforce sharia law" -- repetitive
see above this comment FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In September 1983, President Gaafar Nimeiry" → all you need is "Nimeiry" here; his title and first name were given in the previous section
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • why is "September Laws" in italics?
fixed to quotation FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was assisted in drafting the laws by a group of Islamists" → change to active voice
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The laws led to disposing of alcohol" → who was doing the disposing/implementing?
changed to "The laws led to prohibition and implementing hudud punishments" FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "According to Human Right Watch" → from what I can tell, it's "Human Rights Watch"
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • try to implement the HRW quote into your prose by paraphrasing it or using a shorter selection. It's kind of awkward as is and disrupts the flow of the article to have a paragraph-long quote
merged with the text above. The aim was to explain what Hudud punishments meant but there is a wikilink FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hassan al-Turabi backed this decision" → the decision to implement Sharia law, or backed certain punishments, or something else?
yes and fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Islamic economy was introduced in early 1984" -- the meaning of this is not immediately obvious
fixed and moved up for better flow FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Nimeiry proclaimed himself the "Imam of the Sudanese Umma" in 1984" -- in the lead, "imam" is lowercase, italicized, and linked; not sure what is correct but this should be consistent. Also, what is "umma" and why is it in quotes?
Umma orUmmah is an Arabic term used to refer to the collective nation of Muslim people. Nimeiry wanted to be called that (leader or spiritual guide of the Sudanese Muslim community), this why I used the quotation and now linked Ummah FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "banned "European dancing",[13] and " -- remove comma (WP:CINS)
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They poured alcohol was worth" -- ungrammatical
fixed to "They poured alcohol worth around $11 million" FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Being lashed 40 times is the penalty for breaking the prohibition on alcohol" -- there is probably a better way to say this ("The punishment for breaking...is forty lashes" or something similar)
fixed and merged to the sentence before it FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which they used to empower itself " → plural (they) ... itself (singular)
fixed to "themselves" FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "an "Islamic republic." " -- LQ
fixed, "." outside the quote FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However Historian Gabriel Warburg asserted" -- needs comma after "however" and lowercase for "historian". Might want to change to "the historian" to avoid a false title.
both fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "nine billion dollars" -- specify currency
fixed to USD FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Break up first sentence of "Amputation"
done FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "that lead to a famine declared" -- "led"
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "implantation" -- implementation?
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • why is September Laws in italics?
fixed, italic removed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "300 Sudanese individuals" -- don't start a sentence with a numeral (MOS:NUMNOTES)
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "than $40 USD" → might want to change to "US$40" using a template
done, including to other currency mention FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and often endured" suggest "were subject to wrongful arrests" so we avoid putting too much emotion in WP's voice
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "exacerbated their suffering" -- "their" is ambiguous here since the last people you mentioned are those performing the amputations
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "leading to significant social and familial consequences, including shame within their families and enduring public humiliation" -- repetitive
removed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "punishment including 8 who were hanged" -- needs a comma after "punishment" and "eight" instead of "8"
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Muslims and Christians faced sharia punishment including 8 who were hanged" -- were they the only groups that faced punishment? why are we mentioning them specifically?
Muslims are the majority (98% in Sudan today) and Christians are a minority concentrated in the South (now South Sudan). Sharia laws typically govern Muslims but in Sep. Laws it was stretch to Christians. At the top I mentioned the reasons for the Second Sudanese Civil War, which further elaborated on in the Southern Sudan section. I assumed it will be understood in the context of the article, but let me know where I can make the article more accessible FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "hudud punishment of amputation" -- wording of this sentence is a little off; also "hudud" is italicized previously in the article but not here
Hudud italised, rephraed to "Sudanese historian al-Mahbob Abdul Salam recounts that Hassan al-Turabi lost consciousness while witnessing an amputation, a hudud punishment, at Kober prison." FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "al-Turabi quoted saying that" -- "al-Turabi said"
changed to "In 1985, Hassan al-Turabi stated, "Ultimately .."" FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The image caption of Taha could provide some info about the image (when it was taken, for example), rather than just his name and a link
fixed but could not find the data but wrote about the execution FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It promoted peaceful relations" -- this sentence goes back and forth with what it promoted and opposed; recommend "it promoted...x, y, z,... and opposed..." so readers don't get confused going back and forth
fixed to "It advocated for peaceful relations with Israel, gender equality, and various freedoms. It also criticised Wahhabism, opposed the enforcement of Islamic penal codes, and supported a federal social democratic governance system." FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "government, and faced a" → remove comma
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On 5 June 1983, Nimeiry sought to counter" -- what happened on june 5? did he come up with the idea on that day or did he actually divide the southern region? if he actually divided it, get rid of "sought to..." etc.
fixed, sentenced restructured and divided to two FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • You can remove the SPLA acronym since it isn't used anywhere else in the article
done FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aftermath

  • "Nimeiry's removal in 1985" -- expand the link to cover this whole phrase to avoid any WP:EGG-y issues
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was amputated" -- "were amputated" since there were multiple
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Similar cross amputation" -- this sentence is worded poorly
changed to "A similar cross-amputation sentence was issued and enforced in 2021." FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Also, the government required, for example" -- remove "for example" if you have "also"
fixed and included when the law stopped FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I've got for prose. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 22:55, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, amended as suggested. You can critique specific amendment directly by replying to my comment on that specific issue. Thanks for taking the time to review the article prose. FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:17, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Second round

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Reading over the prose again now. Image checks and source spotchecks to follow shortly. Again, thanks very much for being so patient, it really is appreciated. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:02, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the detailed comments. It really helped improve the article, and please feel free to reply to any specific comment that you feel was not implemented as you think or where more discussion/clarification can be had/done. Thanks again for taking the time to do this, especially with the hurricanes, and I really hope the topic was interesting FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Overall

  • I know this is relatively drastic, but have you given any thought to retitling the article? Since it doesn't seem the whole term "September 1983 Laws" was used to refer to the subject, rather simply "September Laws" as given and bolded in the lead. I feel September Laws (Sudan) might be a better title, though that's a discussion that can always take place after the GAN closes.
to be honest, make sense. I moved the page FuzzyMagma (talk) 20:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • Your explanation of "umma" above is appreciated - I'd recommend linking it in the lead
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 20:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "unlike the leader of the opposition Sadiq al-Mahdi's dissenting view" -- I think you could nix the last two words; the fact that his view was dissenting is given when you introduce him using "unlike" right after you talk about al-Turabi supporting them.
fixed as suggested FuzzyMagma (talk) 23:03, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would also recommend making your use of the terms "imam" and "umma" consistent; here "imam" is lowercase and italicized while "umma" is lowercase and spelled without an "h". At the end of the first paragraph of "The law and its implications", "imam" is uppercase and not italicized while "umma" is uppercase and spelled with an "h".
made "umma" consistent to fit with the Umma Party and all lowecased except when used in National Umma Party FuzzyMagma (talk) 23:03, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Background

  • Is "al-Mirghani and al-Mahdi rivalry" notable enough for a redlink? If so, would that be the best title for that prospective article? The only thing I know about rivalry articles are from college football, where the two parties are separated by an endash
I got the title for the "al-Mirghani and al-Mahdi rivalry" article from a CIA document. The topic itself is really important in Sudanese politics. Its why Sudan has many military coups and bitter animosity between politicians, and I hope I will get the time to write the article. I think its really notable and the title is supported at least by the CIA document published at the height of the rivalry FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His transition from nationalist leftist ideologies" -- might consider linking Left-wing politics here for the benefit of those unfamiliar with the left-right political spectrum
fixed and linked to Left-wing nationalism FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The law and its implications

  • "and laws to enforce sharia law and other fundamental" -- the term "sharia" is used both uppercase and lowercase throughout the article, I would recommend being consistent with this
fixed to small, as seen in the Sharia article FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "By September 1983, Nimeiry introduced sharia law in Sudan, known as the "September Laws"" -- were they called this at the time or after the fact? Who named them that?
very interesting question. I have no clue to be honest but it seems the laws was called after the fact, as in all 1985 and NYT 1986 article does not use the term "September Laws". But more recent sources does. I will change the sentence to "later known as " FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "judiciary, voiced concerns" -- remove comma
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "leader of the Umma Party" -- if the "Umma Party" is a political party, it might deserve a redlink
it exits at National Umma Party. Linked it FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They poured alcohol worth around US$11 million" -- this sentence still reads quite awkwardly to me; my recommendation would be something like In total, US$11 million worth of alcohol was dumped.
fixed as suggested FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the market.[18]Since" -- missing space b/w reference and the start of the following sentence
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sudan's 1973 Constitution to declare" -- I don't think "constitution" needs caps
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and an external debt of US$9 billion" -- is this $9B in 1980s money or 2024 money?
the article is from 1990, and I found another reference with the same figure and Sudan debt in June 1992 is US$15.3 billion, so it is shocker FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • First sentence in "Amputation" section needs to be split. Recommend full stop after "availability in the region" and a new sentence when you start about the USAID declaring famine.
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "exacerbated amputees suffering" -- "amputees" needs to be possessive: exacerbated amputees' suffering
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "amputation, a hudud punishment" -- "hudud" is given in italics in other parts of the article
sorry for having to repeat that. I thought I made all of them italic, like the Hudud article itself but fixed them now FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "power, on June 5, 1983, Nimeiry" -- uses MDY format but DMY format seems to be more commonly used in the article. Should be consistent either way
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aftermath

  • "and requested that the Sudanese government to amend the" -- ungrammatical, recommend removing "to"
fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Images

Images used look good to me - article is very well illustrated and the images do a very good job at emphasizing the subject matter. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A concern about the provenance of the images: they are sourced from a FB post; what makes you think it accurately reports the site of the publication / date of publishing? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did some kinda of triangulation, by checking what the Facebook post says about the picture, then found the photographer, Peter Anton von Arnim, who was in Sudan between 1980 and 1987 where he supported the "September Amputees Union" (see the article), which supported what was mentioned in the FB post, i.e., him being the photographer in 1985/1986 ([also see this for more confirmation). Once you established when and where the picture was taken, then its PD (i.e., at least 25 years have passed after the photograph was created, Sudanese Law).
I was not sure how I can include this in the image description, but with your comment it is now documented. FuzzyMagma (talk) 19:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks

[edit]

Sources selected at random from this version. I had to hand-pick some new sources to replace the non-English ones that were randomly picked.

  • FN 3: redirects to this site rather than a specific source
    check the achieved version of the page FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Since the linked source is dead, |url-status=dead should be added to the reference so the primary link is to the archive. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 02:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    fixed as suggested FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:39, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 6: neither Nimeiry nor the phrase "September Laws" are present from what I can tell
    it says "Sudan has been ruled by Islamic laws since September 1983." I moved ref 13 to 2nd half of the sentence and added another reference to "known as the September laws" part of the sentence FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 10:  verified
  • FN 12: (a)  verified; (b) does ...southerners' disappointment with the regime's failure to fulfill the Addis Ababa Accords... verify Nimeiry's Islamic phase marked the end of the Addis Ababa Agreement of 1972...? Not saying it doesn't, just genuinely asking a question. Also - I might be missing it but I don't see mention of the "Southern Regional Assembly" in the source. (c)  verified
    just for context, which I now added to the article. "Nimeiry's Islamic phase" did not start with the 1983 laws but from the 1973 Constitution of Sudan which declared the country as Muslim and Arabic country which went against anything agreed in the Addis Ababa Agreement of 1972 but the constitution was not enforced until after the 1977 National Reconciliation and from there Nimeiry wanted an "Islamic Republic". As for the Southern Regional Assembly it refers to the People's Regional Assembly of the Southern Sudan Autonomous Region (1972–1983) which was linked at the beginning of the section FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 16: did not see any mention of dumping alcohol into the Nile
    true, it mentions prohibition, the source after it mentions the alcohol being dumped in the Nile, you can see this video also placed as an external link at the end of the page. I removed the reference as it is partially redundant and the information as a whole is in FN 17 FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 17:  verified
  • FN 19: Didn't check this one, but note that it is a duplicate of FN 16.
    removed the 1st mention FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 28:  verified date of execution
  • FN 31: can't find what this is meant to support
    quoting "he [Sudan’s Deputy Chief Justice] denied his [Omer al-Bashir] government had ever stopped the use of one of the most severe forms of “hudud” punishments," and the opinion piece provide examples also FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 34:  verified
  • FN 38:  verified
  • FN 41: sentence portion ...under article 173 of the 1991 Sudanese Criminal Code... is not present in the source (though it is given in FN 42)
    if you do not mind I will leave it as it is. As the first article capture the "mood" during the sentencing (for stealing cooking oil) and the 2nd one is for when the sentence was changed FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The only issue with this is that FN 41 is being used to support everything in the sentence before it, but the information in the first part of the sentence is not present in the source. To fix this, you could just move FN 41 beside 42 at the end of the sentence, so that they both cover the whole sentence. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 02:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    fixed as suggested FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:39, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 42: set |url-status=dead so the archived link is the primary link since the original link redirects to a 404. Content  verified.
    done FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 45: source says Muthna was convicted of armed robbery (Haraba) under article 167 of the 1991 Sudanese Penal Code... while article says ...in article 168 of the 1991...
    article 167 is the definition of "Haraba", article 168 is the punishment article since why I included it, see the original law FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's also how I read it, but the article seems to say that "armed robbery is given the name 'Haraba' in article 168", whereas the source says that name is given in 167. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 02:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    fixed by using 167 instead of 168 FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:39, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 46: (a)  verified (b) Might have a slight close paraphrasing issue, since Requests the Government of Sudan to: (a) immediately amend the Criminal Law of 1991, in conformity with its obligations under the African Charter and other relevant international human rights instruments; (b) Abolish the penalty of lashes; and c) Take appropriate measures to ensure compensation of the victims is quite close to requested that the Sudanese government amend the 1991 Criminal Code, abolish punishment by lashing, and compensate the survivors.
    rephrased to "The Government of Sudan was urged to revise its 1991 Criminal Law to meet international human rights standards, abolish flogging as a punishment, and ensure victims receive compensation.". since the demands are simple statements of fact, I appeal WP:LIMITED FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No rush, just ping me when you get through these and I'll have another look. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 20:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@PCN02WPS whenever you have time FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@FuzzyMagma: a couple more things to look at. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 02:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PCN02WPS fixed FuzzyMagma (talk) 12:44, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@FuzzyMagma Awesome. Nice work, and congrats! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:06, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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