Talk:Senedd/Archive 2
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RfC: first sentence of the lead
- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
This is a simple matter of the order of key terms in the lead sentence with no compelling argument for any of the options. There is a sufficient support for option A to find a consensus for this option. (non-admin closure) Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 02:30, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
How should we portray the various names of this body in the first sentence of the lead of this article? RGloucester — ☎ 20:17, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
- Options include:
- A: The Senedd (pronounced [ˈsɛnɛð] ⓘ; lit. 'senate'), formally known as the Welsh Parliament in English and Senedd Cymru (Welsh pronunciation: [ˈsɛnɛð ˈkəm.ri]) in Welsh...
- B: The Senedd (pronounced [ˈsɛnɛð] ⓘ; lit. 'senate'), officially known bilingually as Senedd Cymru or the Welsh Parliament comprising Welsh Parliament in English and Senedd Cymru (Welsh pronunciation: [ˈsɛnɛð ˈkəm.ri]) in Welsh...
- C: The Senedd (pronounced [ˈsɛnɛð] ⓘ; lit. 'senate'), formally known as Senedd Cymru (Welsh pronunciation: [ˈsɛnɛð ˈkəm.ri]) or the Welsh Parliament...
- D: The Welsh Parliament or Senedd Cymru (Welsh pronunciation: [ˈsɛnɛð ˈkəm.ri]), commonly known as the Senedd' (pronounced [ˈsɛnɛð] ⓘ; lit. 'senate')...
- E: Senedd Cymru (Welsh pronunciation: [ˈsɛnɛð ˈkəm.ri]) or the Welsh Parliament, commonly known as the Senedd' (pronounced [ˈsɛnɛð] ⓘ; lit. 'senate')...
- F: None of the above / other
Survey
- A – Everyone agrees that the common name of this body is 'the Senedd'. I believe that, out of respect for the bilingual nature of the name, and given that this is the English Wikipedia, we should display the English formal name of 'Welsh Parliament' first following the common name. This mirrors that situation that currently exists on the Welsh Wikipedia, but in reverse. The English name clarifies the meaning of the common name to non-Welsh speakers, and to readers outwith the UK, who are unlikely to be familiar with Welsh terminology. English-language sources do not hesitate to use the English name in English, alongside 'Senedd' but without 'Senedd Cymru', see the BBC, and even the Welsh Government's own style guide displays 'Welsh Parliament' first in English. I don't see any reason why we should do any differently on the English Wikipedia. RGloucester — ☎ 14:01, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
- I am also fine with D as a second choice, and somewhat agree with the argument of Mr McCandlish. RGloucester — ☎ 05:34, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- C - As has been covered in different terms elsewhere in this debate, it is not Wikipedia's role (be that the English-language Wikipedia or any other Wikipedia) to take a particular POV out of respect, but rather to report the facts. The relevant legislation here is the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Act 2020 (SEWA 2020), which amends the Government of Wales Act 2006 (GoWA 2006). SEWA 2020 amends GoWA 2006 in multiple places, including: (a) changing the title of Part 1 of the act from "National Assembly for Wales" to "Senedd Cymru", (b) renaming the National Assembly for Wales in section 1(1) of the act to "Senedd Cymru or the Welsh Parliament", and (c) renaming Acts of the National Assembly for Wales in section 107(1) of the act to "Acts of Senedd Cymru". Other references to Senedd Cymru in the legislation include "the committees of Senedd Cymru" (not "the committees of Senedd Cymru/the Welsh Parliament"), "lay the estimate before Senedd Cymru" (not "lay the estimate before Senedd Cymru/the Welsh Parliament"), and so on - there are quite a large number of similar references. In other words, in the legislation which gives rise to this institution's name, it is almost exclusively the Welsh-language terms Senedd or Senedd Cymru which appear - for the avoidance of doubt, including in the English-language version of the legislation - and that is a fact which I feel we must reflect, including on the English-language Wikipedia. (As a counterpoint, if someone were to argue that "Pàrlamaid na h-Alba" should be given prominence over the English-language "Scottish Parliament" on the Scottish Parliament page, this would clearly be absurd, as not only does "Pàrlamaid na h-Alba" not enjoy any particular prominence in the relevant legislation (the Scotland Act 1998), it doesn't appear in that legislation at all - it is a non-statutory translation. There are certainly no Acts of Pàrlamaid na h-Alba.) Kennethmac2000 (talk) 20:49, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
- A, as being the closest to my original proposal (with the caveat that "Senedd" is commonly used to mean "Parliament" rather than "Senate" in Welsh, but that wasn't the original bone of contention). Being the English language Wikipedia, I think it's worth clarifying that there are English and Welsh names for the Welsh Parliament, for the benefit of the wider readership of Wikipedia. C, D and E are not factually incorrect, though if the majority of people here were to prefer an abbreviated intro, my preference would be D (though again, leading the intro with the name Senedd was not the original bone of contention, I'm wondering whether we're broadening the options too widely). Sionk (talk) 01:32, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- A (invited by the bot) I'm presuming that the article is not misnamed, I.E. that the commonly used name by English speaking people is Senedd. So that narrows it to A, B & C. Next, my understanding is that both the terms "Welsh Parliament" "Senedd Cymru" have official status. So "C" is less informative of that and confusing because it presents "Welsh Parliament" as being a mere translation rather than saying that it is also an official term. So that leaves "A" & "B". "B" is redundant and confusing so that leaves "A". Besides arriving at "A" by the above narrowing process, I think it is the best of possible answers. But the second two terms (Welsh Parliament & Senedd Cymru) could also be presented in a reverse of that sequence. Since both ways fully inform the reader either way is equally good regarding Wikipedia's mission. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:08, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- C – Yes, 'Senedd' is what most people call the body in both languages and in most contexts, so the article is titled correctly, I think there is agreement on that. This name, 'the Senedd', is short for the official name 'Senedd Cymru', which in English is 'Welsh Parliament'. So for me, it makes sense to put them in this order in the introduction. I feel in this case it's the cleanest, most straightforward way of introducing the body's names to the English-speaking audience. Unlike most public bodies in Wales that have a Welsh name used when speaking Welsh and an English name used when speaking English, the name "Senedd Cymru" is what is going to be used in formal legislation in English, even UK legislation (Welsh Parliament will not be used). During the Senedd election results, the results were announced in English as the results of the "Senedd Cymru elections". So for me, it's clear that the intention and practice is that the Welsh name has primacy in a way that isn't true for most other bodies with a Welsh and an English name, and that "Senedd Cymru" is used in English too in the most formal of contexts, so the option in A of saying "as the Welsh Parliament in English and Senedd Cymru in Welsh" isn't actually correct. I feel option C is the best option, but if the majority go for option A, I would argue that "in English" and "in Welsh" be taken out because they imply something that isn't reflected in reality in the case of the Senedd, which is admittedly quite unique Trefelio (talk) 16:06, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- A – Per comments above, the most commonly-used name in both English and Welsh is the Senedd, but it is officially known as the Welsh Parliament and Senedd Cymru in English and Welsh respectively. PinkPanda272 (talk/contribs) 21:37, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- As a clarifying question PinkPanda272, can you provide a source for the contention that the Senedd is officially known as Senedd Cymru *in Welsh*, as opposed to Senedd Cymru simply being one of the Senedd's official names in any language (including English)? Kennethmac2000 (talk) 22:10, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- We do have a source. See the Senedd Commission, as cited below, which states that 'the institution has two names of equal standing "Senedd Cymru" and "Welsh Parliament"', and that 'there is a formal legal name in both languages (Welsh and English)'. RGloucester — ☎ 22:51, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- I addressed my question to PinkPanda272. I would appreciate if you would leave them to respond - you and I are already having a discussion below. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 19:34, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Kennethmac2000: The source given by RGloucester is what I based my vote on, and it conclusively describes the use of the shared common name of "Senedd", and the two official names in English and Welsh. PinkPanda272 (talk/contribs) 19:04, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- @PinkPanda272: Which source specifically PinkPanda272? RGloucester has cited multiple. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 20:53, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- You are just being pedantic now, but for clarity it is the written question referenced a couple of comments above this one. PinkPanda272 (talk/contribs) 06:45, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. The only reference in the answer to that written question to the phrases "in English" or "in Welsh" is with regards the name Senedd (where it notes that Senedd is used in English). Nowhere does it say that Senedd Cymru is a/the name for the institution "in Welsh" and that Welsh Parliament is a/the name for the institution "in English". My contention is that Senedd Cymru is a name for the institution in both Welsh and English and indeed in any other language (and likewise for Welsh Parliament). I don't believe there is any evidence to permit saying otherwise. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 08:30, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
- Please explain how you interpret 'there is a formal legal name in both languages' to mean anything other than that there is a formal name in English, and a formal name in Welsh. Are you implying some other language is used in Wales that isn't Welsh or English? RGloucester — ☎ 12:20, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
- You keep referring to that written answer from the Senedd Commission rather than to the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Act (SEWA) 2020, obviously because it is slightly more helpful to your POV. However, the Senedd Commission's opinion in May 2020 doesn't change the law of the land, and the precise wording of that answer asserts things which aren't on the face of the legislation. In particular, if AMs had wished to state in SEWA 2020 that Senedd Cymru was a name for the institution only in Welsh, they could easily have done so. They didn't, and they even used the term Senedd Cymru exclusively in other parts of the English-language version of the legislation in preference to Welsh Parliament. You could make a stronger argument that Welsh Parliament is not a formal/official name for the institution in Welsh, but there are no grounds to claim that Senedd Cymru is not a formal/official name for the institution in English - in fact, quite the opposite. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 10:54, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- All WP:OR, again. It isn't our job nor are we qualified to interpret the law. We let reliable sources do the interpretation, and for the final time, they don't support your reading of its text. The Senedd Commission's interpretation carries weight as a reliable sources; yours, on the other hand, does not. RGloucester — ☎ 13:43, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- You keep referring to that written answer from the Senedd Commission rather than to the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Act (SEWA) 2020, obviously because it is slightly more helpful to your POV. However, the Senedd Commission's opinion in May 2020 doesn't change the law of the land, and the precise wording of that answer asserts things which aren't on the face of the legislation. In particular, if AMs had wished to state in SEWA 2020 that Senedd Cymru was a name for the institution only in Welsh, they could easily have done so. They didn't, and they even used the term Senedd Cymru exclusively in other parts of the English-language version of the legislation in preference to Welsh Parliament. You could make a stronger argument that Welsh Parliament is not a formal/official name for the institution in Welsh, but there are no grounds to claim that Senedd Cymru is not a formal/official name for the institution in English - in fact, quite the opposite. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 10:54, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- Please explain how you interpret 'there is a formal legal name in both languages' to mean anything other than that there is a formal name in English, and a formal name in Welsh. Are you implying some other language is used in Wales that isn't Welsh or English? RGloucester — ☎ 12:20, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. The only reference in the answer to that written question to the phrases "in English" or "in Welsh" is with regards the name Senedd (where it notes that Senedd is used in English). Nowhere does it say that Senedd Cymru is a/the name for the institution "in Welsh" and that Welsh Parliament is a/the name for the institution "in English". My contention is that Senedd Cymru is a name for the institution in both Welsh and English and indeed in any other language (and likewise for Welsh Parliament). I don't believe there is any evidence to permit saying otherwise. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 08:30, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
- You are just being pedantic now, but for clarity it is the written question referenced a couple of comments above this one. PinkPanda272 (talk/contribs) 06:45, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
- @PinkPanda272: Which source specifically PinkPanda272? RGloucester has cited multiple. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 20:53, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Kennethmac2000: The source given by RGloucester is what I based my vote on, and it conclusively describes the use of the shared common name of "Senedd", and the two official names in English and Welsh. PinkPanda272 (talk/contribs) 19:04, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I addressed my question to PinkPanda272. I would appreciate if you would leave them to respond - you and I are already having a discussion below. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 19:34, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- We do have a source. See the Senedd Commission, as cited below, which states that 'the institution has two names of equal standing "Senedd Cymru" and "Welsh Parliament"', and that 'there is a formal legal name in both languages (Welsh and English)'. RGloucester — ☎ 22:51, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- As a clarifying question PinkPanda272, can you provide a source for the contention that the Senedd is officially known as Senedd Cymru *in Welsh*, as opposed to Senedd Cymru simply being one of the Senedd's official names in any language (including English)? Kennethmac2000 (talk) 22:10, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- A per RGloucester - Idealigic (talk) 09:14, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- D or E in order to stay true to its Welsh roots. To my knowledge, "The Senedd" is a somewhat inaccurate and redundant phrase, and it should thus be phrased as simply "Senedd" or "Senedd Cymru" ¡Ayvind! (talk)
- C, A, or E: B is too unwieldy. I can't support D because the primacy of terms is de facto for the Welsh name, not the English. C is, to my mind, the best written lead sentence. Sceptre (talk) 00:39, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
- D or E. The WP:COMMONNAME-based arguments above are faulty; that title policy segment has nothing to do with and no impact on lead sentences. This is much like a bio article where the common name is used for the article title but the full name of the person is given in the lead. Prefer D, as more consistent with our general practice of using English first and providing non-English alternative names second. We only don't do it when the non-English name is actually overwhelmingly dominant in English-language sources and the English term has become obscure. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:49, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- My concern with D is that it doesn’t reflect to the reader the fact that Senedd Cymru has been given a slightly more prominent role in the legislation (SEWA 2020) versus Welsh Parliament, by virtue of the fact that it is used in preference to Welsh Parliament in some places even in English - eg, “Act of Senedd Cymru”, “committee of Senedd Cymru”, etc. In addition, I was driving along the M4 recently, and saw a sign which said - in English - “For Senedd Cymru, follow Cardiff Bay”. Certainly, there are no cases (that I’m aware of) where Welsh Parliament is being used in Welsh texts. Some people are passionate about reflecting the fact that Senedd Cymru and Welsh Parliament are supposed to be of equal standing, which is fine, but it is also a fact that Senedd Cymru is being used in English in places where Welsh Parliament could have been used but isn’t being, and we should also reflect that fact to readers. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 13:42, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- This is a canard. 'Welsh Parliament' is indeed used in the Welsh version of the relevant legislation. RGloucester — ☎ 22:23, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- Welsh Parliament is of course used in the Welsh-language version of the legislation in the same place it is used in the English-language version of the legislation - namely, in the part which renames the National Assembly of Wales to Senedd Cymru or the Welsh Parliament. That is not in dispute, but it was also not my point. Senedd Cymru is used additionally in both the English-language version of the legislation and in English-language artefacts in the real world (eg, the road sign I mentioned on the M4), where Welsh Parliament simply isn't used in the 'opposite' way in the Welsh language. That is a fact, and I'm not sure why we can't find a way of surfacing that fact to readers - we can even highlight that it is somewhat controversial if we wish, but we shouldn't pretend it doesn't exist. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 18:36, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
- I cannot verify the existence of a road sign. Luckily, road signs are not reliable sources. By the logic of your argument, 'Welsh Parliament' could be used in Welsh as a Welsh name for the body, as it appears in the Welsh legislation. While I don't care to go search for examples, this is the equivalent of what you are doing now. An unfruitful exercise, and frankly, completely disconnected from the proposed lead sentence, which makes no such specification. RGloucester — ☎ 19:59, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
- Why are road signs not reliable sources? In any case, I also referred to SEWA 2020, as I have repeatedly, which as you know uses the term Senedd Cymru multiple additional times in the English language, while not doing the opposite with Welsh Parliament in the Welsh language. If you go to legislation.gov.uk, you will find, again in the English language, the term "Acts of Senedd Cymru" used. You will not find the term Acts of the Welsh Parliament. I sense that you think the term in the English language should be Acts of the Welsh Parliament, but it is not. Anyway, it is not worth debating this any further. You wish to deny Wikipedia readers knowledge of the simple reality that, like it or not, Senedd Cymru has been given a role in the English language which Welsh Parliament has not been given the opposite way round. It would be perfectly reasonable to argue that this breaches the policy of treating the Welsh and English languages equally, but the fact that we may not like that doesn't make it untrue. I will leave the lead as it stands, but I may add some additional colour to the article which reflects this fact. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 14:32, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
- This has all been debunked below. Why repeat yourself? The idea that anyone is proposing that we deny knowledge of anything is very odd. You continue to have a strange narrow interpretation of language that is not obvious in the actual proposal... RGloucester — ☎ 18:56, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
- Why are road signs not reliable sources? In any case, I also referred to SEWA 2020, as I have repeatedly, which as you know uses the term Senedd Cymru multiple additional times in the English language, while not doing the opposite with Welsh Parliament in the Welsh language. If you go to legislation.gov.uk, you will find, again in the English language, the term "Acts of Senedd Cymru" used. You will not find the term Acts of the Welsh Parliament. I sense that you think the term in the English language should be Acts of the Welsh Parliament, but it is not. Anyway, it is not worth debating this any further. You wish to deny Wikipedia readers knowledge of the simple reality that, like it or not, Senedd Cymru has been given a role in the English language which Welsh Parliament has not been given the opposite way round. It would be perfectly reasonable to argue that this breaches the policy of treating the Welsh and English languages equally, but the fact that we may not like that doesn't make it untrue. I will leave the lead as it stands, but I may add some additional colour to the article which reflects this fact. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 14:32, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
- I cannot verify the existence of a road sign. Luckily, road signs are not reliable sources. By the logic of your argument, 'Welsh Parliament' could be used in Welsh as a Welsh name for the body, as it appears in the Welsh legislation. While I don't care to go search for examples, this is the equivalent of what you are doing now. An unfruitful exercise, and frankly, completely disconnected from the proposed lead sentence, which makes no such specification. RGloucester — ☎ 19:59, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
- Welsh Parliament is of course used in the Welsh-language version of the legislation in the same place it is used in the English-language version of the legislation - namely, in the part which renames the National Assembly of Wales to Senedd Cymru or the Welsh Parliament. That is not in dispute, but it was also not my point. Senedd Cymru is used additionally in both the English-language version of the legislation and in English-language artefacts in the real world (eg, the road sign I mentioned on the M4), where Welsh Parliament simply isn't used in the 'opposite' way in the Welsh language. That is a fact, and I'm not sure why we can't find a way of surfacing that fact to readers - we can even highlight that it is somewhat controversial if we wish, but we shouldn't pretend it doesn't exist. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 18:36, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
- This is a canard. 'Welsh Parliament' is indeed used in the Welsh version of the relevant legislation. RGloucester — ☎ 22:23, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
- My concern with D is that it doesn’t reflect to the reader the fact that Senedd Cymru has been given a slightly more prominent role in the legislation (SEWA 2020) versus Welsh Parliament, by virtue of the fact that it is used in preference to Welsh Parliament in some places even in English - eg, “Act of Senedd Cymru”, “committee of Senedd Cymru”, etc. In addition, I was driving along the M4 recently, and saw a sign which said - in English - “For Senedd Cymru, follow Cardiff Bay”. Certainly, there are no cases (that I’m aware of) where Welsh Parliament is being used in Welsh texts. Some people are passionate about reflecting the fact that Senedd Cymru and Welsh Parliament are supposed to be of equal standing, which is fine, but it is also a fact that Senedd Cymru is being used in English in places where Welsh Parliament could have been used but isn’t being, and we should also reflect that fact to readers. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 13:42, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Discussion
- In response to Kennethmac2000's comment above, I will say the following: his entire premise is based on WP:OR, that is to say, primary source analysis of a law. This is not acceptable. We follow reliable secondary sources on Wikipedia, and we do not promote our own interpretations of the law as gospel. Essentially, everything he has said is unsupported. The law itself merely says the following: "In section 1(1) of the Government of Wales Act 2006 (c. 32) ("the 2006 Act") for "the National Assembly for Wales" to the end substitute "Senedd Cymru or the Welsh Parliament (referred to in this Act as "the Senedd")". It does not say anything about the status of either name, nor does it establish a hierarchy between them. Kennethmac2000 says that Wikipedia should be based on facts, but the fact of the matter is that he has none supporting his argument.
- Reliable secondary sources are the ones that should be doing the interpreting, not Kennethmac2000, and those have clearly made a determination that 'Welsh Parliament' is to be used in English alongside the common name 'Senedd'. I have linked some examples above, including the Welsh Government's own style guide and The BBC. Some more include ITV, and The Daily Telegraph. There is no good reason to deviate from the standard usage of reliable sources, and certainly no reason to accept one anonymous editor's interpretation of the law as authoritative. Instead, we can look to the reliable reporting of the BBC, which says the following about the name change: 'The assembly says the two terms - Senedd Cymru and Welsh Parliament - have "equal standing"'. RGloucester — ☎ 21:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
- As a point of clarification:
- Part 1 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 (as amended) is titled simply "Senedd Cymru".
- We are discussing the formal/official name here, not the opinion/house style of the Welsh government or the BBC.
- In the excerpt from the linked article, the BBC are not doing primary source analysis, they are merely quoting an opinion of (one assumes) the institution's press/communications team.
- The focus here should be on what the formal/official name of the institution is, not on what it is being referred to as in day-to-day reporting, or in any particular organization's style guide. (The common name is already dealt with in the article title and separately in the lead.) Kennethmac2000 (talk) 21:33, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
- We know what the formal names are, and as far as I know, no one has been confused on that subject. They are 'Senedd Cymru' and the 'Welsh Parliament'. The law does not specify that a specific styling of these names must be used, nor does it specify a name order or hierarchy, and as the BBC reported, 'the two terms – Senedd Cymru and Welsh Parliament – have equal standing'. I didn't say the BBC was doing analysis in that case. I said it was providing RELIABLE reporting on the subject. The institution itself has specified that the two terms have 'equal standing'...the very same institution that wrote the law in the first place! Is that not enough for you? I think I can trust the BBC's reporting on how the institution itself interprets its own laws, more than I can trust you! RGloucester — ☎ 21:52, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
- What RGloucester just said. I'm beginning to understand why my original proposal was described by them as 'nit picking'. With the variety of ways the various primary and secondary sources describe the situation, there's one thing common to all of them that we should be able to agree on, namely that there are two names for the Senedd (in a country where two languages have equal legal status), namely 'Senedd Cymru' and the 'Welsh Parliament'. Unfortunately for us, sources outside of Wikipedia don't conform to Wikipedia's manual of style and embolden key words or phrases. It would be wrong to decide that "and", "or", "or the" etc. are part of an official name, because this isn't unambiguously supported one way or the other by the sources. Sionk (talk) 02:24, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- I am not suggesting that there is a single formal name for the institution, which is Senedd Cymru or the Welsh Parliament. That is emphatically not what I am suggesting. I think we are all agreed that there are two formal names - (i) Senedd Cymru, and (ii) the Welsh Parliament. Where there is contention is on two points: (1) The order in which we should write these two names in the lead. (2) Whether it is accurate to describe Senedd Cymru as the name "in Welsh" and Welsh Parliament as the name "in English".
- On (1), I think there is a strong argument for writing Senedd Cymru first, as this name is the long version of Senedd, the title of the article, so there is a logical flow to it. In alphabetical order, Senedd Cymru also comes before Welsh Parliament. That said, I think this ultimately hinges on (2).
- On (2), and where I feel more strongly, is that we should not describe Senedd Cymru as being the formal name "in Welsh" and Welsh Parliament as being the formal name "in English". There are simply no grounds to claim this to be the case with respect to the formal name (as distinct from what names may or may not be used in the media or on the street in particular languages). The source of the term Senedd Cymru is clearly the Welsh language (as the source of Welsh Parliament is the English language), but that is not what we are debating here. We are debating whether Senedd Cymru is not a formal name of the institution in the English language, which I think there is not only no evidence for, there is actually evidence against - eg, the title of Part I of the Government of Wales Act 2006 (as amended), the term in the English language "Act of Senedd Cymru", and so on. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 10:08, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- "I think I can trust the BBC's reporting on how the institution itself interprets its own laws, more than I can trust you!" How is a statement like that in any way relevant or helpful to this discussion? Please stop it. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 10:08, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- 'Act of Senedd Cymru' is a separate concept, and a very specific case, which has no bearing on the name of the institution itself. It should be fairly obvious that 'Senedd Cymru' is not English, for if it were English, it would take the definite article. It may well be used in English in specific cases, but that doesn't change that it is Welsh. Nothing about the proposed wording that I supported (A) implies that Senedd Cymru is not part of the formal name of the institution. It only indicates that it is Welsh, which, indeed, it is! As for the last bit, it is helpful for one reason: you continually appoint yourself interpreter of the law, despite not having any qualifications to do so, at least in the context of Wikipedia. If there is anything that should be 'stopped', it is that interpretation! RGloucester — ☎ 14:29, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- I am not disputing that the source of the term Senedd Cymru is the Welsh language. But just as amouse-bouche is a French language-originating word which is used in English, Senedd Cymru is a Welsh language-originating term which is used in English. I'm not sure what your point is about the definite article. Dáil Éireann is the name of the lower house of the Irish legislature in both Irish and English and no definite article is used in English. Act of Senedd Cymru is not a separate concept - it is literally an act of the institution we are discussing here. As Trefelio says above:
- ...the Welsh name has primacy in a way that isn't true for most other bodies with a Welsh and an English name, and ... "Senedd Cymru" is used in English too in the most formal of contexts, so the option in A of saying "as the Welsh Parliament in English and Senedd Cymru in Welsh" isn't actually correct. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 19:39, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, Trefelio did say that, but like you, he is suffering from a bit of OR syndrome, and didn't provide any reliable secondary sources to back it up. Again, the Welsh name has no primacy, as per the BBC's reporting, this body has specified that "the two terms - Senedd Cymru and Welsh Parliament - have equal standing". There isn't really much more to say on this subject, unless anyone has reliable secondary sources that dispute what the BBC has reported. RGloucester — ☎ 19:44, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the Senedd or Senedd Commission intimated that their intention had been all along for the institution to have the monolingual name Senedd Cymru and that therefore they would be continuing to use that term alone in all languages, despite what might be written in SEWA 2020... would that mean that Welsh Parliament should no longer be considered by Wikipedia editors to be a formal/official name for the institution? No, of course it wouldn't. Press statements or even written answers by the Senedd or Senedd Commission are simply political statements reflecting a particular point of view that is held on the day, and they don't change the law of the land. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 22:06, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that they don't change the law of the land. You're not getting the point. You think that the law says one thing, based off your own analysis, but reliable sources, and the Senedd Commission is certainly one, do not agree with your analysis. In the battle between RS and you, RS win. The law simply doesn't say what you think it does. RGloucester — ☎ 22:51, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- Let's ignore the primacy topic for now. My contention is that Senedd Cymru is a valid formal/official name for the institution in the English language, in addition to the name Welsh Parliament. You have no evidence to dispute that legal fact, because there is none. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 19:39, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that they don't change the law of the land. You're not getting the point. You think that the law says one thing, based off your own analysis, but reliable sources, and the Senedd Commission is certainly one, do not agree with your analysis. In the battle between RS and you, RS win. The law simply doesn't say what you think it does. RGloucester — ☎ 22:51, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the Senedd or Senedd Commission intimated that their intention had been all along for the institution to have the monolingual name Senedd Cymru and that therefore they would be continuing to use that term alone in all languages, despite what might be written in SEWA 2020... would that mean that Welsh Parliament should no longer be considered by Wikipedia editors to be a formal/official name for the institution? No, of course it wouldn't. Press statements or even written answers by the Senedd or Senedd Commission are simply political statements reflecting a particular point of view that is held on the day, and they don't change the law of the land. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 22:06, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, Trefelio did say that, but like you, he is suffering from a bit of OR syndrome, and didn't provide any reliable secondary sources to back it up. Again, the Welsh name has no primacy, as per the BBC's reporting, this body has specified that "the two terms - Senedd Cymru and Welsh Parliament - have equal standing". There isn't really much more to say on this subject, unless anyone has reliable secondary sources that dispute what the BBC has reported. RGloucester — ☎ 19:44, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- 'Act of Senedd Cymru' is a separate concept, and a very specific case, which has no bearing on the name of the institution itself. It should be fairly obvious that 'Senedd Cymru' is not English, for if it were English, it would take the definite article. It may well be used in English in specific cases, but that doesn't change that it is Welsh. Nothing about the proposed wording that I supported (A) implies that Senedd Cymru is not part of the formal name of the institution. It only indicates that it is Welsh, which, indeed, it is! As for the last bit, it is helpful for one reason: you continually appoint yourself interpreter of the law, despite not having any qualifications to do so, at least in the context of Wikipedia. If there is anything that should be 'stopped', it is that interpretation! RGloucester — ☎ 14:29, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- What RGloucester just said. I'm beginning to understand why my original proposal was described by them as 'nit picking'. With the variety of ways the various primary and secondary sources describe the situation, there's one thing common to all of them that we should be able to agree on, namely that there are two names for the Senedd (in a country where two languages have equal legal status), namely 'Senedd Cymru' and the 'Welsh Parliament'. Unfortunately for us, sources outside of Wikipedia don't conform to Wikipedia's manual of style and embolden key words or phrases. It would be wrong to decide that "and", "or", "or the" etc. are part of an official name, because this isn't unambiguously supported one way or the other by the sources. Sionk (talk) 02:24, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- We know what the formal names are, and as far as I know, no one has been confused on that subject. They are 'Senedd Cymru' and the 'Welsh Parliament'. The law does not specify that a specific styling of these names must be used, nor does it specify a name order or hierarchy, and as the BBC reported, 'the two terms – Senedd Cymru and Welsh Parliament – have equal standing'. I didn't say the BBC was doing analysis in that case. I said it was providing RELIABLE reporting on the subject. The institution itself has specified that the two terms have 'equal standing'...the very same institution that wrote the law in the first place! Is that not enough for you? I think I can trust the BBC's reporting on how the institution itself interprets its own laws, more than I can trust you! RGloucester — ☎ 21:52, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
- As a point of clarification:
There was a useful edit today (of course, I agree with it) from Hazhk, whose edit summary says ""Senedd" is a proper name and loan word whereas with 'Cymru' it is the Welsh name". As I've probably said before, every parliament is a 'Senedd' in Welsh, hence 'Cymru' is required in the Welsh name of the Wales Parliament, to disambiguate it. To English speakers there is only one Senedd, namely the one in Wales. Sionk (talk) 17:38, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
The heart of the matter
- I figured I was done replying to the above, but then I realised that I should go straight to the source for further supporting evidence. The Senedd Commission itself has the following to say about the name of this body:
The Commission made decisions necessary to implement the name change at its meeting on 27 January 2020.
The Commission noted that the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Act 2020 (“the Act”) is clear that the institution has two names of equal standing “Senedd Cymru” and “Welsh Parliament”. At the same time, the Act, in English and Welsh, refers to “Senedd” throughout, for example “Senedd elections”. The Act also prioritises “Senedd” in English in a number of specific contexts – including the descriptor for Members.
The Commission decisions were an extension of the legislative policy decisions made during the passage of the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill (as it then was). These are now reflected in the legislation, whereby “Senedd” is used to replace “Assembly” and “National Assembly for Wales” in most contexts. On the written naming convention, our decision respects the will of Members that there is a formal legal name in both languages, while normalising the use of “Senedd” in everyday usage. The Commission felt it was important to provide clear and consistent guidance on this policy.
- What does this tell us? It tells us firstly, that the idea of primacy for 'Senedd Cymru' is completely at odds with the intent of the law, as interpreted by the Senedd Commission. Secondly, it tells us that indeed, 'Senedd' is prioritised in a few specific contexts, which we already know. It also makes clear that 'Senedd' is to be used a common name for the institution, which is why this article is titled as it is. Finally, it tells us that there is a formal legal name in both languages. Unless the editors above want to suggest that these 'both languages' are something other than English and Welsh, I think it is clear there can be no contesting of the idea that there is a formal name in Welsh, Senedd Cymru, and a formal name in English, Welsh Parliament. RGloucester — ☎ 19:53, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- We are each cherry-picking evidence that suits our argument - the difference is that my evidence trumps yours, as it is the law, and for a statutory body, its formal/official name is that provided by law. Whether the Senedd Commission "notes" anything is neither here nor there - it has no legal standing and is merely an opinion. Boris Johnson and the rest of the UK government claimed that there would not be a border down the Irish Sea, when quite clearly there would be (and now is) as a result of the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland in the UK's EU withdrawal agreement. If Wikipedia editors simply relayed political statements as gospel, I wonder what range of inaccuracies we would be promoting.
- I believe both that Senedd Cymru is given an elevated status above the Welsh Parliament in the law of the land (or perhaps you could describe it as being first among equals), and that Senedd Cymru is not only a formal/official name in the Welsh language. However, if I have to prioritise the point to promote here, for which I think there is the most overwhelming evidence, it is that Senedd Cymru is not only a formal/official name in the Welsh language - as is evidenced, for example, by the title of Part I of the Government of Wales Act 2006 (as amended). The only counter-argument which anyone can come up with to this is that the term Senedd Cymru comes from the Welsh language, so it can't possibly be a formal/official name in the English language, but that is merely an opinion, and one which isn't borne out by other examples - such as amouse-bouche and Dáil Éireann. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 22:00, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- Your beliefs about what you think the law says are irrelevant. RS simply do not agree with your reading of the meaning of the law as written. RGloucester — ☎ 22:51, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- As you will know, "Primary" does not mean "bad". "Sometimes, a primary source is even the best possible source..." Conversely, "Secondary" does not mean "good".
- It's worth remembering that the Senedd Commission is itself a political creature, and on this issue, which relates to the Senedd itself, it is hardly "a third-party or independent source, with no significant financial or other conflict of interest" - it is a player in the game.
- If we continue to be unable to reach a reasonable compromise here, I think we will need to reflect in the article that there are legitimate differing points of view about the status of the term Senedd Cymru. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 11:15, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- This is an appalling misconstruction of how Wikipedia works. No, we cannot 'reflect in the article' that there is any 'legitimate differing point of view', because there are none. Your point of view is not supported by any reliable sources, and indeed, you yourself are not a reliable source. Primary sources can be used, but only in the form of quotations. You cannot add your interpretation of such a quotation into the article, unless by some contrivance you manage to get it published in a reliable source. The Senedd Commission is not a 'political creature', in fact it is intended to be apolitical, and is responsible for the governance of the institution. It contains representatives of every major political party in the Senedd. You have no grounds to contest the Senedd's own interpretation of its own law. RGloucester — ☎ 13:49, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding the Senedd Commission, you’ve made my argument for me. Of course if the Senedd Commission is made up of representatives of the political parties it is a political creature. It is hardly an independent tribunal. In any case, on the topic of using primary sources in the form of quotations, why in that case don’t we simply quote directly from s1(1) GoWA 2006 as amended:
- “There is to be a parliament for Wales to be known as Senedd Cymru or the Welsh Parliament”
- Kennethmac2000 (talk) 09:29, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
- This is an appalling misconstruction of how Wikipedia works. No, we cannot 'reflect in the article' that there is any 'legitimate differing point of view', because there are none. Your point of view is not supported by any reliable sources, and indeed, you yourself are not a reliable source. Primary sources can be used, but only in the form of quotations. You cannot add your interpretation of such a quotation into the article, unless by some contrivance you manage to get it published in a reliable source. The Senedd Commission is not a 'political creature', in fact it is intended to be apolitical, and is responsible for the governance of the institution. It contains representatives of every major political party in the Senedd. You have no grounds to contest the Senedd's own interpretation of its own law. RGloucester — ☎ 13:49, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- Your beliefs about what you think the law says are irrelevant. RS simply do not agree with your reading of the meaning of the law as written. RGloucester — ☎ 22:51, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- The body's own website shows "Senedd Cymru Welsh Parliament" at top left, and continues with "Welcome to the Senedd
About the Senedd
The Welsh Parliament is the democratically elected body that represents the interests of Wales and its people.
Commonly known as the Senedd, it makes laws for Wales, agrees Welsh taxes and holds the Welsh Government to account." The Welsh equivalent has exactly the same logo, and begins "Croeso i’r Senedd
Gwybodaeth am y Senedd
Senedd Cymru yw’r corff sy’n cael ei ethol yn ddemocrataidd i gynrychioli buddiannau Cymru a’i phobl.
Mae’r Senedd, fel y’i gelwir, yn deddfu ar gyfer Cymru, yn cytuno ar drethi yng Nghymru, ac yn dwyn Llywodraeth Cymru i gyfrif." It's clear that the common name is "Senedd" for both languages, but the formal name is "Welsh Parliament" in English, and "Senedd Cymru" in Welsh. - So what's the problem again? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:42, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
The legal reality
- We are discussing here the formal/official name of the Senedd. The formal/official name of a statutory body is that defined in law.
- The core of the debate is whether Senedd Cymru is a formal/official name of the Senedd only in the Welsh language, or whether it is also a formal/official name of the Senedd in the English language.
- The primary piece of law that is relevant here is the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Act (SEWA) 2020, which amends the Government of Wales Act (GoWA) 2006.
- SEWA 2020 amends GoWA 2006 in a number of ways:
- It modifies the title of Part 1 of GoWA 2006 to replace "National Assembly for Wales" with "Senedd Cymru". (NB: It does not replace "National Assembly for Wales" with "Welsh Parliament" or even "Senedd Cymru/the Welsh Parliament".)
- It modifies section 1(1) of GoWA 2006 to replace "National Assembly for Wales" with "Senedd Cymru or the Welsh Parliament". (NB: It does not state that Senedd Cymru is the name in the Welsh language, or indeed that Welsh Parliament is the name in the English language.)
- It modifies section 107(1) of GoWA 2006 to rename "Acts of the National Assembly for Wales" to "Acts of Senedd Cymru or Deddfau Senedd Cymru". (NB: It does not rename "Acts of the National Assembly for Wales" to "Acts of the Welsh Parliament or Deddfau Senedd Cymru".)
- There are zero legal grounds on which to reach the conclusion that "Senedd Cymru" is the formal/official name of the Senedd only in the Welsh language.
- On the contrary, there are several legal grounds on which to reach the conclusion that "Senedd Cymru" is a formal/official name of the Senedd in the English language also.
- Therefore, we should not claim on Wikipedia that "Senedd Cymru" is the formal/official name of the Senedd only in the Welsh language, as, while that may sound very reasonable, it is not actually the legal reality. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 21:09, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I think it is obvious that 'Senedd Cymru' is a formal name for the body no matter what language one happens to be speaking, and the same applies to 'Welsh Parliament'. You may notice that 'Welsh Parliament' is also included in the Welsh version of the legislation. At this point, I don't even know what you are arguing about. In any case, I would suggest you don't pretend you are a judge at court determining whether 'legal grounds' for anything exist, because again, you have no such qualifications. RGloucester — ☎ 21:27, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I am arguing that it is legally inaccurate to characterise Senedd Cymru as the formal name “in Welsh” (and Welsh Parliament as the formal name “in English”). If you feel very strongly that Welsh Parliament should be listed first, I am content to compromise at:
- The Senedd, formally known as the Welsh Parliament or Senedd Cymru, …
- Kennethmac2000 (talk) 21:56, 26 May 2021 (UTC)′
- I don't feel any need to 'compromise', as I do not think that the text of option A is in any way objectionable. The RfC stands. In any case, I am not certain I understand why you think stating 'formally known as the Welsh Parliament in English and Senedd Cymru in Welsh' necessarily excludes the possibility of these terms being used in other languages. It does not say 'formally known only as the Welsh Parliament in English', and I don't think that would be a normal interpretation of the phrasing as written, especially given that the relevant sentence starts off with another name for the institution, 'The Senedd'. I see nothing wrong with A, at all, in fact. RGloucester — ☎ 22:43, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- If you accept my contention that Senedd Cymru is a valid name for the institution in English (which you seem to be doing, though can't quite bring yourself to say explicitly), then it is redundant - and I would argue misleading - to state that it is the formal name "in Welsh". Let's make the sentence more succinct by dropping the "in Welsh" and "in English" labels, and you can otherwise keep your option A. If you are not willing to compromise, then let that fact stand on the record. But let also stand on the record the fact that I am willing to compromise, even though C is still how I would write the lead in an ideal world. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 08:38, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
- I don't feel any need to 'compromise', as I do not think that the text of option A is in any way objectionable. The RfC stands. In any case, I am not certain I understand why you think stating 'formally known as the Welsh Parliament in English and Senedd Cymru in Welsh' necessarily excludes the possibility of these terms being used in other languages. It does not say 'formally known only as the Welsh Parliament in English', and I don't think that would be a normal interpretation of the phrasing as written, especially given that the relevant sentence starts off with another name for the institution, 'The Senedd'. I see nothing wrong with A, at all, in fact. RGloucester — ☎ 22:43, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I am arguing that it is legally inaccurate to characterise Senedd Cymru as the formal name “in Welsh” (and Welsh Parliament as the formal name “in English”). If you feel very strongly that Welsh Parliament should be listed first, I am content to compromise at:
- I think it is obvious that 'Senedd Cymru' is a formal name for the body no matter what language one happens to be speaking, and the same applies to 'Welsh Parliament'. You may notice that 'Welsh Parliament' is also included in the Welsh version of the legislation. At this point, I don't even know what you are arguing about. In any case, I would suggest you don't pretend you are a judge at court determining whether 'legal grounds' for anything exist, because again, you have no such qualifications. RGloucester — ☎ 21:27, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
This is sinking into pedantry. Senedd Cymru is plainly and unambiguously Welsh - "Senedd" is Welsh for Parliameent and "Cymru" is Welsh for Wales. "Welsh Parliament" is unambiguously two words in the English language. The are both official names and neither is less worthy than the other. It's just plainly daft to say that if a Welsh language name is used in an English language document it becomes English. However much Kennethmac2000 wants to repeat the same argument ab-nauseum, it's never going to change these facts. For readers who aren't familiar with the official languages in the United Kingdom, it just makes sense to explain the origin of "Senedd Cymru". Sionk (talk) 11:35, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
- +1 What Sionk said. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:32, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
- It's not pedantry. Either you are right on the substance or I am right on the substance. If you really think it doesn't matter, why don't we run with the compromise I have proposed above?
- If Dáil Éireann is written in an English-language sentence, is it English? If not, what is the name for the lower house of the Irish legislature in English? If amuse-bouche or RSVP is written in an English-language sentence, is it English? If not, we'd better alert all of the English dictionary publishers.
- I have already acknowledged above that the origin of the term Senedd Cymru is clearly the Welsh language. That is not up for debate. My contention is that this term is also a valid formal name for the institution *in English*, which under SEWA 2020 is evidently the case.
- This is not pedantry because some people clearly have an agenda to minimise the use of Welsh-language terms in English, and are justifying it with innocent-sounding 'common sense' arguments. However, in this case, it can't be justified with reference to the source of the Senedd's formal names - ie, the law: SEWA 2020 - and Senedd Cymru is clearly a formal name for the Senedd in English as well as Welsh. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 10:43, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- Dáil Éireann is not English. The commonly used English translation is 'House of Representatives' (this appears in the Irish constitution), but as you might be aware, Irish bodies of this kind are specified by law to have only an Irish name, and reliable sources usually refer to them as such. This is quite different from the Senedd, which as you are aware, has an English name in legislation. No one wants to 'minimise the use of Welsh-language terms in English'. If that were anyone's goal here, we would not've supported the move to 'Senedd'. On the contrary, what you are trying to do is minimise the use of the English term in English, because, for reasons not entirely clear, you think it is somehow inferior to the Welsh name. RGloucester — ☎ 13:54, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- There is a fundamental difference between the Irish constitution and Welsh law. Whereas both countries provide for two official languages, one being English, Ireland gives precedence to Irish, but Wales gives equal status to both. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:13, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- That is a very reasonable point, but here we are delving into the realms of OR. My point was simply that words/terms originating in other languages can become words/terms in the English language - eg, amuse-bouche, schadenfreude, Senedd Cymru. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 09:19, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Welsh name
I wish that before changing the Welsh name of the Assembly people would actually make sure that what was there before was wrong (it wasn't... see the Assembly's website).