Talk:Scolpaig

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Townland

@Conor Lawless: you have changed 'a small village' in the introduction to 'a townland'. I think that 'townland' is an obscure and probably inappropriate term, and is not an improvement.

The townland article describes it as 'a small geographical division of land used in Ireland' and does not mention Scotland. A brief Google search does not support this meaning in Scotland. The Oxford English Dictionary gives four meanings, the most relevant of which is:

Scottish. The enclosed or infield land of a farm. Cf. town n. 1b. Also in plural.

This is clarified by this example:

2010 - R. A. Dodgshon in E. Foyster & C. A. Whatley Hist. Everyday Life Scotl., 1600–1800 i. 42 Distinctions like infield, outfield, common pasture and shielings were widespread across the mainland. Only in the Hebrides and northern isles was it simplified into townland arable, common pasture and shieling.

This indicates that in the Hebrides 'townland' means land surrounding a farm that is for its exclusive use, as opposed to common land. While this term describes the fields surrounding Scolpaig Farm, it is not an apt description of what Scolpaig is. If you have sources that confirm your usage of 'a townland' then please expand the townland article.

However, I'm not happy with 'small village' for what appears to be a farm and the area around it. I suggest 'hamlet'. Verbcatcher (talk) 03:11, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Verbcatcher: I'm glad you agree that 'village' is not an appropriate description. Whatever kind of settlement may have been there in the past (and there are only the ruins of ~6 houses visible), currently it is effectively a farm. I definitely do not think that 'hamlet' is an appropriate Hebridean term, I've never heard it used outside England, and rarely even then. I certainly prefer 'townland' to that. Chu (talk) 07:45, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Verbcatcher: Maybe 'district'? Chu (talk) 10:16, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Verbcatcher: Also found reference describing townlands in Outer Hebrides. Edited townlands article. Chu (talk) 10:38, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Chu: Thank you for your edit to Townlands. 'Townland' is not mentioned on the first page of the source,[1] which is all I can see without a Jstor account. Was your edit based on a later page, or did you base it on Jstor's topic categorisation? Jstor topics are inadequate here as they are based on a text search[2] and probably only mean that the word is in the article, not that it is used in the Irish sense rather than the OED sense given above. Your source is dated 1914 and does not establish that 'townland' is a current term for places in North Uist. 'District' could be ambiguous as it has a historic meaning in local government, see Local government areas of Scotland (1973–1996), but I think it is ok to use it in a general sense. Or we could put 'Settlement' or 'Area'. On the whole I now favour 'district', which allows us to include the area around Beinn Scolpaig. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:19, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Verbcatcher: Yes, I have access to the JSTOR article, I work in a UK university. Yes, my edit was based on later pages. I can download the file for you, but not sure how to send it on. Let me know if you'd like me to do that. Difficult to copy sections as it is a raster scan. Chu (talk) 15:40, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Verbcatcher: Also still think district is good. Chu (talk) 15:44, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Chu: I am happy to accept your reassurance concerning Carmichael's paper. However, I quickly found an earlier edition here. I will change the citation in townland accordingly. I have changed the lead here to use 'district'. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:29, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Exact area

It is not clear exactly what area we are describing. The OS 1:25000 map[3] suggests that Scolpaig is the name of a group of buildings, or possibly the area between the lochs and the coast. Out Coastline section suggests that we are describing a larger area, presumably the 'sheer cliff faces' are to the north. I think we should describe these as 'near Scolpaig'. Verbcatcher (talk) 03:13, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Verbcatcher: You are focussing very much on the farm as the name of the site, ignoring Beinn Scolpaig, which runs down to quite an extensive headland and coast and whose height results in the cliff faces, unusual for North Uist. Locally, the walk North from the farm around to Griminish, or at least as far as Caisteal Odair would be referred to as 'Scolpaig'. There are also Lewisian Gneiss formations to be seen to the west of the beach at Scolpaig Bay. I don't really think that 'near Scolpaig' is necessary or even appropriate. It is an interesting point and I'm not sure where the name Scolpaig originates from: bay, farm, loch or hill. Chu (talk) 07:45, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Chu: we should base articles on reliable sources. All of the OS and Bartholomew's maps at the NLS Map Images website[4] indicate that Scolpaig is the name of a group of buildings and do not assign a name to the area you describe. Your description of local usage seems likely, but it is 'original research'. However, I am not an absolutist about this type of issue, and my main objective is to make the article clear and unambiguous. I tried to minimise the extent of any ambiguity by removing 'Scolpaig' from the image captions, where it was redundant. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:55, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Verbcatcher: The article for Scolpaig_Tower suggests that it is in fact the Bay that is the root of the name Scolpaig, not the farm. I see on the OS map that the word Scolpaig is written near the modern farm buildings. However, the bulk of the buildings that remain from the older settlement are in fact the other side of Loch Scolpaig. I noticed last week that the location of the North Uist highland games, which was held a little south of Scolpaig was described as being "at the farm at Baile Loin", not "at Baile Loin". I have a couple of books on the history of North Uist here in the house, I will read a bit about it and see if they might shed any light on the matter. Farms like this are unusual in the Hebrides. The farms at Scolpaig and Baile Loin (definitely the name of a town/townland) are the only areas in North Uist that are not part of North Uist estate. They are unusual in that they are not crofts. In my experience of Gaelic speaking areas, farm names are not prominent at all. Chu (talk) 15:40, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Spaceport Section

I have added the disputed template to the spaceport section, as it is written from a very negative standpoint and the references do not align to the text - particularly the notes about RSPB. The section needs to be updated to provide a neutral perspective and to include new developments with the spaceport, this could potentially be it's own article considering the significance of the development. LostScotland (talk) 13:24, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]