Talk:Schuch
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[edit]I just came across this article and is saddened by the ignorance, lack of respect and curtesy to my family. The original text on this Wikipedia page on which you seem to know so much about is very close to correct and if need be it can be backed up with sufficient academia. You are talking about my father, my grandfather etc as if you know their familes history personally, I can assure you that your crude comments and lack of knowledge in regards to the von Börtzell-Szuch Family is truly a reflection of whom you are. Having a difference of opinion is in itself a part of daily life however it can be done with respect. With kind regards, AvBS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.148.37.105 (talk) 17:51, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Who ever you might be - change to some you know. This typed below is a sead story made by people not knowing what they are talking about. Zaabaawaa (talk) 02:17, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Do you know this book: Rodziny polskie pochodzenia cudzoziemskiego osiadle w Warszawie i okolicach. Obviously you do not - or you would not have typed any of this below. Try it.Zaabaawaa (talk) 02:17, 2 May 2013 (UTC) (and next time - type some you have some documented knowledge of - not this below)Zaabaawaa (talk) 02:17, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
A civilization depends upon clever people pulling it further by inventions and knowledge. Whomever you 2 might be, when you type such misch-masch below, as you have, then kindly turn your interests to some you do actually know.
Lets see if I have the time and nerve to put you in your places.
Instead of making stupid remarks - perhaps you would do some clever and offered your kind help to complete what is missing to a person whose capability handling these (Wilkimedia)sites is poor????
ANSWER:
1). Mr Timuzsin Schuch is not related to any other of the Schuch:s. All these families stand alone on this site, and this person is certainly not related to this family you are here criticising below.
2). I have little knowledge of this Wikipedia and how to handle and manage things here, so I am not uploading pictures, since I do not know how to do this. Thereof no Coat of Arms has been presented, and also lack of comments. I have other things to do as well.
3). "Fantasy story" you say? Well, you do not know much about the real life, and what it might bring into your own life - do you?? Participated have you in any war or revolution or uprize lately????
4). This family surname Szuch/Schuch originates from Hungary. There might be other families that originate from some other country. You have for instance some thousand of Szuch´s in the USA, whom you do not mention with a single word. They originate from different countries before settlement in the US, and are not related to each other.
5). "Verifying of facts" and "The dates and places given cannot be verified elsewhere". Maybe you do not know where to look to find them: This book: Rodziny polskie pochodzenia cudzoziemskiego osiadle w Warszawie i okolicach,in English: (Polish families of foreign origin living in Warszawa and its area) by: Stanislaw Lozy. Book published by: “Wydawnictwo i Druk Zakladow Graficznych Gawski i Dau”, Warszawa 1934 part 2 page 90 – 92. You will find in the Polish library in Paris, France, or HRH the King of Sweden private library at the castle of Stockholm, or: Biblioteka Narodowa Al. Niepodleglosci 213 PL- 00 973 Warszawa 22 Poland (E-mail: biblnar@biblnar.bn.org.pl); Now I have shown to you what you did not know - and had the nerve to think you know it all and by this say stupid things and remarks about other people you do not know - shame on you.
6). (The "Last noted family members in Hungary 1711: Stefan Schuch" is in fact the first one mentioned by the author of the article, and even then without any quotation). Have severe difficulty reaching the right church for confirmation of data, depending upon language problems. They do not know much English and I do not know any Hungarian. Otherwise I would have presented more than this.
7). Change of spelling of surname depending upon language and pronunciation difficulties, while moving from Hungary to Poland.
8). "Neither German nor Polish biographical resources do mention the aristocratic status of the Schuch/Szuch family". SEE BOOK REF ABOVE §5. And again, this only referees to ONE of these families mentioned, NOT ALL OF THEM.
9). "The story about the family having moved from Poland to England ... and then to Sweden" and "having taken the position of the 2nd secretary in the Embassy and then that "of the Consul General" There is NO "CONSUL GENERAL". That title referees to a position wheres the Consul is a Consul only while obtaining these tasks, beside that he himself is paying for the entire administration of a Consulate. There is a severe difference in being a Consul(appointed by his countries Foreign Office) or a Consul General (who apply for this position and then finance the whole operation out of his own income). You should know that diplomats seldom are stationed longer periods then 4-5 years at a time to one and the same country and position.
Position was FIRST taken as 2:nd secretary of the London Embassy. SECONDLY position appointed as first Polish Consul in Gothenburg, Sweden. Where he turned to HRH the King of Sweden and asked for asylum. The English newspapers wrote that the last real Polish diplomat had left the scene. Nice words from a foreign newspaper commenting what is happening in another country with yet another country's diplomatic staff.
"shows that the author of these words has very little (if any) knowledge about how the diplomatic and consular services function". YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT IN THE WORLD YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. THESE YOUR OWN WORDS TURNS TOWARD YOURSELF BY ANY PERSON WITH SOME KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING OF DIPLOMATIC LIFE.
10. "The "von Börtzell–Szuch" branch of the family might have obtained the nobelty - but no clear information is known when and where and from whom (under what condition)". OH YES! THIS IS MOST CLEARLY STATED AND KEPT IN STATE ARCHIVES. CAN BE CONFIRMED AT ANY GIVEN TIME - YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE WHERE TO LOOK - DO YOU??? And still you say these stupid remarks - well, you certainly have big gaps in your knowledge.
11. "The singular fact of minute change of spelling of "von Boertzell–Szuch" to "von Börtzell–Szuch" (obvious to any German speaking person) is of no importance for the whole family. WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? It is of the most significant importance! For starters you have the entire jurisdiction side of it - are you truly stupid????
11A. "It might as well relate just to one person living now in Sweden". WRONG AGAIN! THERE ARE 11 PEOPLE IN THE WORLD WITH THIS SURNAME. 10 IN SWEDEN.
12. "At least the Polish writer and book translator Irena Szuch-Wyszomirska was not a baroness". WRONG AGAIN!!! Irena Szuch was born as a Baroness and older sister of Marion Szuch, who later was adopted von Börtzell-Szuch in 1927 in Ukraine by his mother's brother who was not married and therefore childless. Thereof has this branch of the family become a double name ever since, and to so remain. Irena Szuch then married Wyszomirski who holds a Polish Knighthood. She did not like to let go of her maiden name, since it was more famous and well known than her husband's surname.
13. "The minute details about places, buildings etc., even if true, are without any relevance to the topic of this article, and what more important - are without any relation to Schuch family in other sources". THIS IS JUST WHAT THESE MINUTES DO, THEY GIVE A WHOLE PICTURE OF DIFFERENT FAMILIES SHARING THE SAME SURNAME WITHOUT ANY OTHER RELATION TO EACH OTHER, AND PRESENTED IN ONE PLACE - NOT IN DIFFERENT PLACES WHERE YOU NEED TO LOOK THEM UP - IF YOU MIGHT HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE OF THEIR EXISTANCE.
14. Some clever person - might it have been any of yourselves? Has "married" Solveig von Börtzell-Szuch with Marion von Börtzell-Szuch, who in fact was married to Baroness Sophie Grunwald. Who on earth can do such stupid thing, and then leave it like this for others not knowing people to take part of any such nonsense!!
15. "I suggest deleting the first part of the article altogether, leaing only the list of persons". I KNOW WHAT I WILL DO, AND THAT IS TO REPORT YOU PEOPLE TO SOME BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF WIKIPEDIA AND HAVE YOU REMOVED FROM YOUR TASKS - YOU HAVE SHOWN TOO MANY LACKS OF KNOWLEDGE YOU LIKE TO COMMENT AND HAVE INFLUENCE ON, WITHOUT PROPER KNOWLEDGE TO DO SO, AND ARE THEREFORE ENDANGERING SERIOUS MENT ENLIGHTENING PURPOSES OF THIS SITE.
2/5 2013 With my best regards Zaabaawaa (talk) 11:15, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
HERE STARTS YOUR ORIGIN COMMENTS ON THE ARTICLE:
The introductory part of the article seems to be a fantasy story (or a noble legend to prove the ancient character of a family) invented after the personal history of the modern Hungarian handball player Timuzsin Schuch, in Hungarian: Schuch Timuzsin, Dzsingisz kán nevét viseli a magyar beállós. It was wholly created by one person User:Rodeorm, whithin one day, who is not a logged in Wikipedian (at least does not have a personal page, and seemingly does not answer to the input in his /her discussion page User_talk:Rodeorm. Nobody ever verified the facts. The dates and places given cannot be verified elsewhere.
The surname Schuch is of German*), not of Hungarian origin. The spelling is evidently not Hungarian but German (Hungarian would Suh for the same pronunciation). A search for the surname in the Hungarian Wikipedia, and an advanced Google search in the .hu (Hungarian domain) show little more than some contemporary Hungarian surnames, first of all that of Timuzsin Schuch.
*) Have you checked if there are several different families using this name, and coming out of Hungary & Germany ???
Comparison with the German Wikipedia de:Schuch shows immediately the difference: the surname is absolutely of German origin**), and the original (medieval) form was "Schumacher" meaning "shoe-maker" (absolutely a not aristocratic occupation), see: de:Schuch. It is well known there, had many famous personages, unlike in Hungary (the "Last noted family members in Hungary 1711: Stefan Schuch" is in fact the first one mentioned by the author of the article, and even then without any quotation). **) Whom ever you might be: KINDLY DO NOT MIX FAMILIES FROM DIFFERENT COUNTRIES !!! Italic text The present day repartition of the surname shows precisely the origin: Germany: 1588, Switzerland: 8,(This only proofs that there were families with this name existing there - NOT from where they originated). Italic textAustria: 290 (see, that the areas most densely populated by people bearing this surname are those of eastern Austria, close to the borders with Hungary), Poland: 10 (German spelling), Poland: 32 (Polish spelling). (Unfortunately no similar maps for Hungary are accessible on the web, but Google can somehow replace it). Of course, as the Austria and Hungary formed one country for two centuries, the surname is also known in Hungary. One can see that the theory of the three branches of the family (resembling the medieval legeng of Lech, Czech and Rus, and that of the Polish having changed the spelling of the surname for the whole family, cannot be sustained***). ***)You have just declared your own incompetence.Italic text
The surname was already known among the Saxon peasant settlers in Southern Poland in 13-15th centuries Walddeutsche - the list of surnames is given in the Polish article pl:Głuchoniemcy.
Neither German nor Polish biographical resources do mention the aristocratic status of the Schuch/Szuch family. E.g. Polski Słownik Biograficzny - ****)Polish Biographical Lexicon. ****) Have you seen this book: Rodziny polskie pochodzenia cudzoziemskiego osiadle w Warszawie i okolicach,in English: (Polish families of foreign origin living in Warszawa and its area) by: Stanislaw Lozy. Book published by: “Wydawnictwo i Druk Zakladow Graficznych Gawski i Dau”, Warszawa 1934 part 2 page 90 – 92. You will find in the Polish library in Paris, France, or HRH the King of Sweden private library at the castle of Stockholm, or: Biblioteka Narodowa Al. Niepodleglosci 213 PL- 00 973 Warszawa 22 Poland (E-mail: biblnar@biblnar.bn.org.pl); Now I have shown to you what you did not know - and had the nerve to think you know it all and by this say stupid things and remarks about other people you do not know - shame on you.
The story about the family having moved from Poland to England ... and then to Sweden" and "having taken the position of the 2nd secretary in the Embassy and then that "of the Consul General" shows that the author of these words has very little (if any) knowledge about how the diplomatic and consular services function.
The "von Börtzell–Szuch" branch of the family might have obtained the nobelty - but no clear information is known when and where and from whom (under what condition) (see: pl:Herb szlachecki (lista herbów) and pl:Szreniawa (herb szlachecki) - see the red links in both articles). If however it is only "von Börtzell–Szuch" who have nobelty, it's more probably by a singular adoption of one person to "von Börtzell", than by a long time tradition of descendancy.
The singular fact of minute change of spelling of "von Boertzell–Szuch" to "von Börtzell–Szuch" (obvious to any German speaking person) is of no importance for the whole family, as the compound surname, or the first part of it "von Börtzell", or even "Börtzell" (both with "ö" and with "oe") none of them is known to the search engines with the maps used ebove (created after national cenzuses). It might as well relate just to one person living now in Sweden.
At least the Polish writer and book translator Irena Szuch-Wyszomirska was not a baroness. Comment: Much un fortunate on your part, but she was. If you do not know facts, do not spread ill willing mish-mash.
The minute details about places, buildings etc., even if true, are without any relevance to the topic of this article, and what more important - are without any relation to Schuch family in other sources.
I suggest deleting the first part of the article altogether, leaing only the list of persons.
noychoH (talk) 10:22, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that the first section should probably be deleted as unsourced and doubtful - if I'd been stub-sorting it nowadays, not in 2009, I'd have added {[tl|unreferenced}}, but then was then. It's sad that although numerous editors have dropped past and tweaked the article a bit, no-one added that template. Leave it as a "list-of-name-holders" surname page, until someone comes up with any sourced information. PamD 18:01, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
As an over all comment to whom ever dared to show his/hers incompetence in this field openly: "When you open your mouth you tell each and every one standing nearby what you do not know anything about."
Thank you for writing this article. My great-grandfather was a Schuch and all I know about him is that he was a German living in what was then Yugoslavia.The information that it originates from a place as remote as the southern Baikal region is amazing. Is there any indication as to its meaning?Sonata124 (talk) 19:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)