Talk:Scentura/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

From the article page

I removed all of this unsourced information to the talk page, if the creator needs a source, I can find one for her/him. Many of the articles listed can be used as a source. Calendar 18:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

==Example of a Scentura Employment Ad==

This is the driving core of Scentura's business, finding LOTS of people who can be "trained" to sell fake perfume in parking lots. Power in numbers. A very broad, vague, and universally appealling message is used to attract as many people as possible. When they call in for more information they are greeted with "a few simple questions to determine if the position is right for you". These questions include "are you available for work full-time?" and "do you have reliable transportation?", little else. Candidates are then given a time for an interview.

• this ad was found under the "Admin/Office" jobs section of craigslist.org:

OFFICE HELP NEEDED ASAP! NO EXP NEC! (san jose north)
Reply to: see below
Date: 2007-09-17, 10:49AM PDT

Expanding company is looking for
18 to 25 guys/gals needed for help in a fun fast paced office.
No phone sales.
No experience necessary.
We are willing to train.
Competitive salaries!
Call today, start tommorow.
Please Call: 408-263-****.

• Compensation: Depends on Experience.
• Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
• Phone calls about this job are ok.
• Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.

PostingID: 424798026

Borderline vandalism

A single purpose account continues to delete the 20 references in this article. The articles are all legit, and have simply been posted on Ripoffreport by another user. I am sure if I removed the link to ripoffreport, this user would still continue to delete.

The Long case is obviously legit also, in which Scentura was found to be a pyramid scheme.

This single purpose account has not attempted to work with other editors, instead he pushes his own version, deleting 20 referenced sources.

What links are broken? The single purpose account continues to say there are only 5 links broken, but deletes all 20.

This single purpose account continues to remove all sources, adding a pro-Scentura, unsourced skew on this pyramid scheme.

Arguments of single purpose account:

• References didn't exist. Only 4 different links were working.

• Proof that Ripoffreport.com is a fraud. Quit putting unverfied references.

• Ripoffreport.com is a fraud. The case vs. Dan Long is also fabricated Most links are broken and pointing to the same site.

• You have 5 broken links, 13 "references" that point to the same article in ripoffreport.com. 2 vague references from news reports about independent contractors.

These arguments cannot be all true. There are 20 references--in one edit, the single purpose account says there are 4 links of 20 working, and later says there are 5 of 20 working. Which is it? Why does this single purpose account delete all 20 references, instead of only the links that are broken?

The single purpose account also claims that the Dan Long case is fabicricated--which is a complete and total lie.

Calendar 18:11, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I just checked every link and they all work for me (some were slow loading, however). Moreover, all seemed relevant as sources for the points asserted. Moreover, googling "+Scentura +pyramid" yields a large number of confirmatory additional sources. CIreland 18:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

ripoffreport.com

FWIW, although this looks like a useful website for people trying to avoid being scammed, I don't think it qualifies as a WP:reliable source. However, there are plenty of other reliable sources referenced in the article that will give the reader a good picture of what Scentura is all about, particularly the court decision that it is a pyramid scheme. Why not just remove the ripoffreport.com links, and leave the others? Dlabtot 19:36, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. The ripoffreport site simply hosts the full articles, from newspapers, television stations, etc. I can move the articles somewhere else, if this user agrees to stop deleting the referenced sources. Calendar 19:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

well, actually, the links I followed (sorry, I don't remember which ones) were not full articles from newspapers, television stations, etc., but rather, personal testimonials from folks who had been victims of the scam. As far as preconditioning your actions on an abusive editor's agreement to stop being abusive... I'm not sure that's a good plan. Dlabtot 20:03, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Here is the one and only link to ripoffreport.com : http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff36647.htm it has copies of the articles.

Here are all of the full articles, from reputable news organizations across the United States which can be found on this ripoffreport page:

Turnbull, Lornet (March 4 2002). "Perfume-Selling Operations Smell Like Scam, Women Say". Columbus Ohio Dispatch.

Monday, March 4, 2002 By Lornet Turnbull Columbus Ohio Dispatch Staff Reporter The lowest point of her short-lived career in perfume sales came on the day Kim Aston and her colleagues were shooed away from the Bogey Inn near Muirfield. A 30-year-old from Pataskala, Aston and the others had been hitting strip malls, parking lots and office buildings around Columbus peddling rendition perfume -- knockoffs of designer fragrances. But instead of offering to buy, Bogey Inn managers called police. The salespeople were a nuisance, restaurant managers said, and had no license to sell. They were asked to leave and not return. It was an early clue to the peculiarity of the new career Aston had chosen when she responded to a newspaper ad offering 'serious money for a management opportunity that required no experience. Midwest One in Worthington recruited her and more than a dozen other central Ohioans -- mostly women, and none of them licensed -- to peddle Scentura Creations' line of rendition perfume called Observe L Essence. Based in Atlanta, Scentura creates fragrances that mimic such designer brands as Giorgio, Poison and Obsession. The company sells them through a network of independent distributors such as Midwest One, which opened here in January. 'Most of these kinds of operations are as predatory as hell, said Columbus police spokesman Sgt. Earl Smith. 'Over the years, we've had companies bring in vanloads of kids and send them out into neighborhoods, cold weather, hot weather . . . If it's not legally dishonest, it's morally and ethically so. The vendors were told that potential buyers were everywhere: in hotel lobbies, elementary schools, grocery stores, bars and strip clubs. Not even hospitals and funeral parlors were off limits. 'We'd go through the drive-through at fast-food restaurants and ask if they wanted to buy perfume, Aston said, laughing at the memory of the sales pitches. 'We wouldn't be buying anything ourselves. Eventually, after five to eight weeks of training, the promotion says, the vendors could open offices of their own, with free startup money from Scentura. As entrepreneurs, they could expect to earn $52,000 or more annually after recruiting new vendors for training -- starting the cycle all over again. Aston and the others learned quickly that the path to entrepreneurship wasn't paved in gold: One disappointing sales stop followed another as they tried to convince people that a $20 bottle of imitation Giorgio was as good as the real thing. 'People treated us like we were nothing; it was embarrassing, Aston said. 'We felt like the people who walk up to you on the street in New York, opening their coats and trying to sell you hot watches. 'The one thing that kept me going for two long weeks was the belief that I would be able to make $52,000 a year. It would never materialize. And eventually, the company's entire sales force quit at once -- all after three weeks or less. Midwest One owners Stan and Sarah Niemeic and their now-former sales force disagree over various aspects of their relationship. The sellers, for example, said they were promised a weekly paycheck of $295 or more. But the Niemeics say the sellers were told that as independent contractors, their income would come from the profit of each sale. They could keep any amount over $18 for each bottle they sold, Mrs. Niemeic said. 'They were being trained, and during that time they were given the opportunity to make money, Mrs. Niemiec said. She said most of the vendors were under 20, unmotivated and most probably would have been dismissed if they hadn't quit. 'This is an opportunity for a person who does not have a lot of education or experience, she said. The positions are an alternative to $6- and $8-an-hour jobs in fast- food restaurants and retail stores, she said. 'If you want to make more money, you work a little harder. I don't think there was a lot of effort among many of them. The Niemeics came to Columbus from Arkansas last December. They have been Scentura distributors for seven years, opening their first office in Mobile, Ala. Janet Robb, president of the Better Business Bureau of Arkansas, said inquiries and complaints against the company there centered around its hiring practices. 'We'd get calls from the parents of 17-year-olds asking about their financial claims, Robb said. 'We never got complaints about the knockoff Gucci perfumes. It was always about these management positions that paid a lot of money. In most cases, there were no management positions, and there was not a lot of money to be made. Hundreds of Internet postings make similar accusations against Scentura distributors across the country. A scattered handful of them are from people who had completed the training and were successfully running their own businesses. Kip Morse, president of the Better Business Bureau of Central Ohio, said that although businesses such as Midwest One are legal, their hiring practices can be misleading. 'If you're advertising management positions and it takes three days of somebody's time, energy and hopes before they come to grips with what it is really about, you've got deception. Morse warns potential recruits to check out these kinds of management offers before responding to ads. 'You've got to be realistic, Morse said. 'Is it feasible that this is a product somebody will want to buy? Is there a market for this product? Am I the kind of person who would want to sell this product this way? On top of everything else, Aston and the others were operating illegally when they sold their perfumes without peddler licenses throughout Columbus and some other central Ohio cities. Niemiec said sellers are told from the start that they are responsible for obtaining their own licenses, as well as paying taxes. Vendors disagree. Columbus also requires Midwest One to have a peddler promoter license, said Craig Coloby, a licensing officer in Columbus. He said neither the company nor its vendors are licensed. It's not unusual. Often, officials don't learn of peddler violations until someone complains; businesses seldom do, Coloby said. Unlicensed vendors roll into town offering a variety of products for sale. 'Magazines are the big thing, Coloby said. Experts say these kind of 'business opportunities seem even more appealing when the job market is weak. Sheena Wicks, 18, said she was looking for a job to help pay the bills and prepare for college after she lost her job when American Eagle Outfitters closed its Northland Mall store. The Columbus resident earned less than $20 during her two weeks with Midwest One. 'So many people would laugh at us, Wicks said. 'Some would just plain get mad. 'Or they would smell the stuff for half an hour and then not buy anything -- wasting your time. Aston, a mother of a 7- and a 4- year-old, said that in the end she probably sold 13 bottles before she finally quit. In two weeks, she, too, had earned about $20. With transportation expenses and child-care costs, the position she had taken to help with the household bills ended up pushing her deeper into debt, she said. 'I didn't have a car, so I was offering the others gas money, she said. 'We were all broke all the time because we weren't selling anything. lturnbull@dispatch.com

If it sounds too good to be true. Eyewitness News Noblesville, Indianapolis.

IF IT SOUNDS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE… Richard Reeve/Eyewitness News Noblesville, Indianapolis Aug. 26 So why are people crowding a Noblesville parking lot? 'They said we're going to make like $75,000 the first year,' recalls Dan Penale. Callista Kellas came 'with the impression I was, you know, (going to) have this great management job.' They saw an ad for international wholesale assistant managers, maybe $400 a week. 'It fell into the category of, too good to be true.' Kent Koven, a recent Ball State grad, liked what he heard from a regional manager for Scentura Creations, assistant manager, cool! 'The truth is, you have to sell so many bottles to open your own store.' Bottles? Bottles of what? Perfume, it turns out. 'Selling is not important, that's what they told us, over and over, we're management, we're not supposed to sell, however that's not what I found,' says Koven. But he, and several others, soon discovered they were going to be salespeople, not managers. Linda Carmody with the Better Business Bureau thinks, 'it's misleading.' Not illegal, the BBB says, but maybe not very truthful. 'Our report does state about the ads, about it saying that it's management. And that people should realize it's an independent contractor and would be responsible for their own business.' That means you'd make the sales and get a cut, but pay the taxes and get your own licenses, if needed. Eyewitness News wanted to find out more, but company representative Katie Metzger wouldn't speak with us at first. She later told us we'd have to leave. Dan Panale left too, after hearing Scentura's pitch. 'It was more gonna be all sales and like the managing was going to be one or two people getting a managing job. That's not, that's something false from what they said last week.' One young person said, they should've just come out and told us.

Stieffel, Kristen (September 2001). "Perfume Bandits. (Fake Perfume Offered In Parking Lots)". Orlando Business Journal 18 (16): 23.

PERFUME BANDITS. (FAKE PERFUME OFFERED IN PARKING LOTS) Kristen Stieffel. Orlando Business Journal, Sept 14, 2001 v18 i16 p23 The message: A cautionary tale describing people who approach women in parking lots and ask them to 'sniff perfume that they are selling at a cheap price. This is not perfume - it is ether. When you sniff it, you'll pass out, and they'll take your wallet and heaven knows what else.' The e-mail usually contains several accounts of people, who were approached in parking lots or at gas stations but, because they had. read' a Previous version of the email, avoided disaster by escaping. The truth: Although it is wise to avoid strangers in parking lots, ether isn't potent enough to knock someone out with only a couple of casual sniffs. As with many urban legends, however, this story does contain a grain df truth. Two unrelated grams, actually. According to the Mobile Police Department, on Nov. 8, 1999, Bertha Johnson claimed. to have been rendered unconscious after having smelled an unknown substance. She told. police that, as she was entering a bank (with $500 of her own money and $300 belonging to her employer), she was approached by a woman selling perfume. Johnson sniffed the perfume, lost consciousness and came to some time later at another location. All the money was gone. Johnson's case appears to be the only one of its kind. Toxicological reports showed no unusual substance, ether or otherwise, in her system. No arrest has ever been made, and the case remains, open. As for bands of perfume-wielding villains prowling the nation's parking lots, there appears to be some truth there also, though whether the perfume in question contains ether is anybody's guess, since all of their would-be victims have been tipped off to the scheme But at least one company, Atlanta-based Scentura Creations, does sell perfume in this way. Scentura is described by the Better Business Bureau as a 'multilevel selling company.' The firm manufacturers inexpensive imitations of designer fragrances. Salespeople are sent out, often in pairs, to hawk the product door-to-door or, yes, in parking lots. Sightings of such peddlers seem to have lent credence to the original scare story, in spite of the fact that, other than Johnson's univerified assault, no one has ever been found to have been 'ethered' by a perfume salesperson. If a suspicious e-mail lands in your in-box, before forwarding it to everyone in your address book.

Taylor, Iris (June 9 2002). "Know What You Are Applying For When Answering A Want Ad". Richmond Times - Dispatch.

KNOW WHAT YOU ARE APPLYING FOR WHEN ANSWERING A WANT AD Richmond Times - Dispatch; Richmond, Va.; Jun 9, 2002; Iris Taylor; A Richmond reader who is employed but actively looking for a new job answered an advertisement in The Times-Dispatch for an assistant manager. She said she went on two interviews but became suspicious of many things, including the company's complicated, multitiered training and money-making structure and its use of many different telephone numbers in ads, all leading to the same office. She said in a group interview, 'a very smooth-of-the-mouth, very fast talker' spoke of bonuses, benefits, profit-sharing, trips, awards, giveaways and future office locations. But, she said she had trouble getting straightforward answers to how much money she'd make and whether the job involved selling, which she did not want to do. She said she was offered a position 'on the spot,' but declined after deciphering that the 'job' entailed consumer watch selling bottles of cologne to family members and people on the street. She said while trying to research the company on the Internet, she learned it was linked to the Atlanta-based perfume products company Scentura Creations Inc., the subject of scathing denunciations by people who claimed to have worked for it. 'Suppose I had been green enough to quit my job and be put out there?' she asked. 'I have a mortgage, two children and a car note. I can probably tell you after the first day, I would have been gone. I would have been out there starting over from point one.' She said she believes this is an employment scam and she wants other readers to be warned. I contacted the company that the reader complained about - Infinity Management in Richmond, which is one of many independent distributors of Scentura Creations. Scentura supplies, but does not own, Infinity Management. There are no complaints filed against Infinity Management at the Office of Consumer Affairs in Richmond or on the Better Business Bureau's Web site. John Barber, the general manager in Richmond, said Infinity Management is an 11-month-old sole proprietorship that recruits and trains people to go into business for themselves as independent contractors. He said people are made aware that they're not being hired as employees and that selling is involved because they sign independent contractor and consignment agreements 'saying we're giving them merchandise [to sell] on a signature. 'Yes, there is sales involved in the learning process,' Barber said. 'We completely state that.' But, 'we don't come out and use words like selling. We would lose those types of people we're trying to appeal to.' Rather, business jargon such as 'direct marketing' is used, he said. Knowledgeable applicants understand that direct marketing means selling, he said. If they don't, 'it's on their end to ask those types of questions.' Barber said Infinity Management uses multiple telephone lines because 'we have about 300 different ads' and want to see which ones 'pull' the best. Whether the ad asks for a branch manager/manager trainee, assistant manager or manager, 'it's the same position,' he said. Infinity Management is licensed to sell business-to-business and to individuals on the street 'anywhere in Richmond that is zoned commercial, but not on private property' such as malls or store properties where soliciting is not permitted, Barber said. Training is progressive, done in several phases, and when completed, those who 'prove themselves' are set up in a location with a small staff and budget. They are expected to turn enough profit to support operating expenses. They have other requirements, such as they must 'do 30 transactions in one week' in order to keep their office location. Income is commission-based, and there's no guarantee how much will be made, said Barber. Income is boosted by recruiting others to sell. Selling is done in teams - three-person groups that get cases of products to sell on consignment. They must report their progress twice a day. I also called Scentura and spoke with Karey Smith in accounts receivable. She said the people who complain on the Internet think they're working for Scentura, but actually they're recruits of the independent distributors. 'We've got some great owners,' she said. But, 'sometimes people open, and are not ready to open,' while others misrepresent themselves as part of Scentura, but they're not. On its Web site, however, Scentura takes credit for developing the concept that distributors use as a model for running their businesses. Also, the distributors receive from Scentura what Barber refers to as 'overrides' or 'residual income.' So, Scentura and its distributors are strongly linked. If you were looking for employment, would you, like the reader, wonder if you were being offered a job that enables you to support yourself and your family? Or, would you conclude that this is a business opportunity that involves hard work and risk? Here are five tips from experts which, together with the questions contained in the help box, can help clear up confusion, misunderstandings and miscommunication that can occur in any interview: Be persistent in learning what the position entails. What a company is doing might not be anything illegal, said Sue Scott, a spokeswoman for the Virginia Employment Commission in Richmond. But, if the interviewer isn't being up front, the job seeker needs to ask probing questions. Look for buzzwords. 'Selling' or 'sales' are terms that scare off applicants. They often are camouflaged by such terms as marketing, direct marketing, telemarketing or telesales. 'Probably the best suggestion is they should learn some business terminology,' advised Infinity Management's Barber. Look for red flags in the advertisement. Ads of legitimate companies should contain the company name, a job title or job description, said Ron Brown, vice president of Excel Staffing Services Inc. in Richmond. 'If you have two or three' of those pieces of information, 'fine. If you have none of them, I'd start raising my eyebrows. Any company on the level will be proud of their name and give their name.' You should be asked to fill out an application. Most legitimate businesses ask respondents to fill out an application, said Brown. 'This isn't always true,' but it is 'in most instances. If they bring you in, take your Social Security number and say they're going to put you on the payroll, I'd start to question that.' Do not rely on verbal promises. 'Get all details regarding an employment opportunity in writing,' advises the Greater Atlanta Better Business Bureau in its report on Scentura Creations. To review the report, go to www.atlanta.bbb.org. Click 'company reports,' then, 'additional options,' and 'Scentura Creations.' You will learn that it sells 'fragrance products' to wholesale distributors who then resell the items to the public. One method used by the independent distributors to recruit sales people is the placement of classified advertisements in the employment section under the heading of 'Management,' the BBB reported. It said, 'Scentura Creations has had no complaints.' However, you can read plenty of complaints by going to a search engine and typing in Scentura Creations. Scentura Creation's Web site is at www.scenturacreations.com.

(December 6 2000) "Perfume Purveyors Are Real Thing, Even If The Myth Isn't". Richmond Times - Dispatch.

PERFUME PURVEYORS ARE REAL THING, EVEN IF THE MYTH ISN'T Richmond Times - Dispatch; Richmond, Va.; Dec 6, 2000; Like the scents they sell, tales of alleged perfume-wielding perpetrators continue to weave and waft their way about town. For those who are joining the program currently in progress: On Nov. 17, The Times-Dispatch ran a story about a mass- distribution e-mail that warned shoppers to watch for people selling perfume in parking lots. The e-mail warning - featuring various women in various places who consequently were drugged and robbed - turned out to be an urban myth most likely based on a single incident reported in Mobile, Ala., more than a year ago. (That case is still unsolved.) The bottom line was 'Don't believe everything you hear, but better safe than sorry.' Within two days, however, several women from the Richmond area called to say something similar had happened to them. One anonymous caller said she was approached on Election Day by a young woman selling inexpensive perfume at the Mechanicsville Wal- Mart. 'I was going to my car, and luckily a man came along who was parked by me. Then she walked away.' No crimes reported Apparently, people are peddling perfume in public places. But they don't appear to be doing so with evil intent, as suggested by the warning e-mails - no ether sprays or robberies associated with perfume sales have been reported to the Richmond Police Department's Economic Crimes Unit, which usually handles scam-related reports. One young salesman even offered cologne to a Henrico County policeman at the scene of a crime. The officer was in uniform at the time, so it's likely the vendor's intentions - if not his timing - were benign. A similar encounter alarmed Betty Anne Howell at the Midlothian Turnpike Kmart. 'A nice-looking lady had a box in her hand and said something like, 'Would you be interested in some perfume? Howell thought it was unusual and left quickly. The woman probably was selling something cheap at a hiked-up price, she said, but who knows? Mary E. Woodley said she was approached the morning the article appeared by a young man in front of the Library of Virginia on Broad Street. He asked her what kind of perfume she liked and began to open a black bag. 'I immediately said no and proceeded on my way back to work,' said Woodley. Another Mary, who asked that her last name be withheld, said she was getting out of her car at the Short Pump Wal-Mart last spring or early summer when a young man suddenly appeared behind her. 'He said, 'Excuse me, ma'am, if you have a minute.' 'I don't know that there was anything dangerous about the situation, but I put the fear of God into that young man. I said, 'You are making a big mistake' . . . I don't know what you have in that backpack, and you have no idea what I have in my pocketbook.' As he took off, Mary noticed one or two other young people with backpacks toward the rear of the parking lot. Filling a quota 'These poor kids are probably brought out here and dropped off in the middle of nowhere,' she said. 'They probably have some quota . . . but it's just not a good idea, even in broad daylight.' Whenever someone reports such an incident, said Jim Kloosterman, manager of the Short Pump Wal-Mart, 'We go right out and tell them to leave our property.' Kloosterman said the vendors usually are college-age and generally are selling perfume. 'In the last three years, we've probably run them off four or five times.' Mary Brinkley, an assistant manager at the Wal-Mart at Parham and Brook roads, said people have been asked to leave because solicitation is not allowed on Wal-Mart property. Generally, they cooperate and move on. Diane Pedraza of Richmond thinks the proliferation of perfume peddlers may be related to a company called Scentura Creations. Scentura, according to its Web site, began about 25 years ago in Atlanta and has evolved into a 'multimillion dollar company that distributes perfume to independent business owners on an international level.' The company revolves around the sale and distribution of its Observe L Essence line of 'rendition' fragrances, created to mimic designer perfumes at a reduced price. Scentura's Web site - though it includes no contact information for prospective employees or interested parties - offers a 'once-in- a-lifetime opportunity to be in business for yourself,' claiming the potential for a six-figure income and financial independence. Not so, said Pedraza, at least not in her experience. She worked for a division of Scentura near Old Bridge, N.J., for about three weeks in 1998. 'When you first starting working for them, they say you get paid at least $200 a week. 'The only money I made was from perfume I sold on the street. I'm not a very good hustler, so I probably sold seven bottles the whole time.' According to Pedraza, her employer 'took me to bad places. Where they tell you to go, you have to go . . . to parking lots, inside random office buildings.' Problems like that stem not from Scentura itself, but from its business owners, or 'customers,' said Karey Smith, who works for the company in Atlanta. 'Customers buy the perfume from [us], and the way they sell it is up to them,' she said. 'They cannot misrepresent the product [by saying it's the real version of a given scent] or say they're employees or work for us.' Web sites set up by Scentura representatives - which seem a safer venue than parking lots from which to sell a product - offer the 3.3- ounce bottles of perfume for anywhere from $19.95 to $39.95. Because customers own their own businesses, Smith said, they set their own prices and keep the profits. Customers may employ anywhere up to 50 people on the local level to make the actual sales. Most people, Smith said, learn about Scentura from having been introduced to its products. 'People who want the perfume will call and say, 'I bought it in the Wal-Mart parking lot and can't find the girl who sold it to me.'*' Customers and their employees are allowed to sell wherever they like, Smith said, as long as it's not illegal. Scentura has about 200 to 300 customers at any given time, including some currently in the Richmond area. If customers' tactics are questionable, Smith said, they usually don't last. 'It's very easy to cut off the supply.' Whether or not the perfume-mongers can be traced to Scentura customers or similar operations, it pays to be alert, especially during high-volume shopping days. And it wouldn't hurt the sellers themselves - whoever they are and no matter how good their intentions - to take a tip from Mary: 'I don't have Mace or anything, but some people have that on their key chain. 'You run into one of these feisty middle-aged West End women, and they're likely to sling it at you.'

Flannery, Thomas L (March 07 1997). "There’s Big Dollars In Street Scents". Intelligencer Journal (Lancaster).

THERE'S BIG DOLLARS IN STREET SCENTS Intelligencer Journal; Lancaster; Mar 07, 1997; Flannery, Thomas L; To hear Warren Jentis tell it, peddling bottles of perfume on the streets of Lancaster will catapult you into the world of the rich and famous. But to hear city officials and business leaders tell it, what Jentis is doing will, in all likelihood, make only make one person rich: Warren Jentis. A Barnegate, N.J., native. Jentis said he moved to Lancaster on Jan. 31 with his girlfriend/partner Betsy Schuyler, rented a vacant three-story building at 114 E. Chestnut St. and opened WBI--short for Warren and Betsy International. Jentis, who has the intensity of a get-rich. quick infomercial, describes himself as a 'direct marketer of rendition perfumes he buys from Atlanta-based Scentura Creations. Since no one may patient a scent, what Scentura dues is analyze the contents of popular fragrances, then replicate them and sell them under their own names at rates far lower than their original counterparts. Jentis said he buys the perfumes at a deep discount and provides them to his sales force at prices ranging from $10.50 to $20 a bottle, and they, in turn, peddle the products for $24.95. After about two months, Jentis said that 'successful' salespersons are offered contracts with annual salaries ranging from '$30,000 to $35,000 and a car,' and that free vacations are commonplace. None of the seven people interviewed by the Intelligencer Journal said they have ever met or known anyone who received a contract, but two said they were off to Florida this weekend on Jentis' tab. Since Jentis' arrival in Lancaster, police said they have been inundated with complaints of high-pressure sales tactics by the young sales crew Jentis calls 'independent contractors'--made up primarily of felons, admitted drug dealers and hard-luck youngsters, the youngest being 17. Hardly a day goes by, said the Downtown Investment District bicycle police officers, when they don't cite one or more of Jentis' crew for soliciting without a permit. DID Police said most are repeat offenders and face fines between $50 to $600 on each daily charge. Jentis and Schuyler insist the ordinance is not legal and said they plan to challenge it in court. Jentis' attorney, Kevin C. Allen, could not be reached for comment. 'Crazy, Greedy ... Must like $$$, music and fun. Office and general work. Call Warren ... ,' reads Jentis' ad in all three local newspapers. And, according to Jentis, 29--a ponytailed, modern-day version of super salesman Prof. Harold Hill of 'Music Man' fame--call they do. 'What's wrong with giving people the opportunity of a lifetime,' said Jentis, waving his right hand, bedecked with a gold ring topped with a dollar sign. 'I'm just teaching people to do what I do, and they learn as they earn.' After paying a non-refundable $25 fee for a nondescript 'background check.' the fledgling salespeople begin a four--to eight-week training program that includes stints at various locations throughout the county under Jentis' tutelage, Schuyler said. Jentis said hundreds of people have passed through his doors, but admittedly few make the cut. One training class started with about 70; five remain. Sam Loth. the DID's new executive director, said Jentis has scheduled a meeting with him next week. What Jentis won't find when he gets to Loth's office is a sympathetic ear to his pleas of police harassment. 'Apparently Mr. Jentis feels he's free to operate outside the rules and regulations of the business community,' Loth said. Loth said he plans to continue to utilize the city's ordinance regulating vendors and peddlers 'to help protect the community.' As does the man who heads the city's licensing and permits section, W. James Schelling. 'The problem is that Mr. Jentis is portraying his business as one that participates in business-to-business sales, and that's just not the case,' said Schelling. 'The city doesn't issue permits that allow anyone to enter a business or stand directly outside a business and solicit that business's employees or customers,' Schelling said. 'Why? Because that's not legal.' Schelling said the only permit Jentis' sales force might be able to get is a peddler's permit that allows for door-to-door sales. But that would require criminal records checks, and because most of Jentis' workers admittedly have had run-ins with the law, the applications would be denied, Schelling said. Lancaster Bureau of Police Chief Michael L. Landis said enforcement of the city's vendors and peddlers law is complaint-driven, and that legitimate operations know they need a permit to do business in town. Landis said he has received a number of complaints about Jentis' high-pressure tactics, misleading help-wanted advertisements and calls from parents of minors worried about what Jentis is really up to.

Madore, James T. (March 28 1992). "Perfume Sales Just A Smelly Scam? Young People Say Amherst Company Fails On Training, Pay Promises". Buffalo News (Former Employees Cheer Reports Perfume Firm Is Out Of Business).

PERFUME SALES JUST A SMELLY SCAM? YOUNG PEOPLE SAY AMHERST COMPANY FAILS ON TRAINING, PAY PROMISES Buffalo News; Buffalo, N.Y.; Mar 28, 1992; By James T. Madore - News Business Reporter; A group of young people is accusing an Amherst perfume distributor of falsely advertising career opportunities and of asking them to smuggle products into Canada. They describe Nautica Stars Inc. as nothing more than a sophisticated 'scam' that preys on people made desperate by unemployment and the recession by promising them career advancement and paid training -- and then not delivering on the promises. They say they were told they could earn up to $35,000 a year or about $600 a week. However, they say they were lucky if they made $50 per week. The 18-to-23-year-olds have reported their concerns to the Better Business Bureau of Western New York, which has launched an investigation, according to Dolores J. Liberatore, the bureau's vice president. Founded in January, Nautica Stars, 331 Alberta Drive, distributes generic perfumes that are similar to Obsession, Eternity and other popular fragrances. The products are manufactured by Scentura Creations of Atlanta, Ga., a 17-year-old company with 570 sales offices worldwide. John D. Disbro, a Williamsville resident, owns Nautica Stars. He and Michael E. Wallette of Cleveland, a regional vice president for Scentura, deny all the accusations made by the young adults. Both described their venture as 'honest' and 'not meant to hurt anyone' in an interview Friday. Jennifer E. Andrews of Kenmore disagreed, saying: 'We were basically misled . . . it was totally different than they said it was. We ended up spending more money than we were making.' She explained that she and her friends were given perfume by Nautica Stars to sell on consignment. They could charge whatever price they wanted, as long as $19 was paid to Nautica Stars for every item that was sold. Financial records provided by Nautica Stars show that the disgruntled individuals earned between $20 and $66 during the two weeks they spent selling fragrances. All of them left the company about a week ago when their sales declined. Wallette, the firm's supervisor, said it is possible for teen-agers to be successful selling perfume. For example, he said, a 19-year-old woman from Rochester was Scentura's top salesperson in New York in mid-February. And Mark M. Riedel, 28, of West Seneca is planning to open his own sales office in Cheektowaga, after being with the company for barely 3 1/2 weeks, Wallette said. 'This isn't a scam,' he said. 'And I don't want our name to be tarnished by a few bad apples.' Amy Eddy of Buffalo and Brian Bader of South Wales don't consider themselves troublemakers. They say all they want is to be reimbursed for their expenses and paid for the training sessions they attended. Bader explained that he and his friends applied for jobs with Nautica Stars after reading a newspaper advertisement seeking managers and assistant managers. The ad promised paid training, and the potential for cash bonuses plus health benefits in the future. 'We never got paid for training,' Bader said. 'There was a lot of talk and promises; not must else.' He estimated that Nautica Stars owes him $655 for the use of his car and $442 in training wages. Miss Eddy and Miss Andrews each claim they are owed $260 for expenses and $680 in wages. 'If they have receipts, I will reimburse them. But I won't be raped,' responded Wallette, who supervises Nautica Stars. Owner John Disbro acknowledged that his advertisement was misleading and said it has been changed. 'It was unintentional,' he said, adding 'I will do anything to make this right.' The young adults also allege that Wallette took them to Canada on selling trips and told them to lie to customs inspectors. He forced them to smuggle, they said. Wallette denied the charge and said Nautica Stars has never sold perfumes north of the border. Since January, about 250 people have sold perfume for Nautica Stars. However, only about 50 are still with the firm, Disbro said. 'This isn't for everyone. But we are providing an opportunity for young people to make money,' he said. Paul Gabriel, a former salesperson, described Nautica Stars as a revolving-door operation, where young people are urged to sell perfume to their friends and family, and then discarded when sales drop. 'No one stays very long, they give up because they can't sell enough of the stuff to make money,' said the 34-year-old Buffalo resident. 'They know these kids can't get jobs elsewhere so they use them,' he added. Bader, whose 18 years old, concluded: 'We had such great hopes and then we found out it wasn't for real.'

Madore, James T. (June 13 1992). "Former Employees Cheer Reports Perfume Firm Is Out Of Business". Buffalo News.

FORMER EMPLOYEES CHEER REPORTS PERFUME FIRM IS OUT OF BUSINESS Buffalo News; Buffalo, N.Y.; Jun 13, 1992; By James T. Madore - News Business Reporter; Nautica Stars Inc., an Amherst perfume distributor, has apparently gone out of business after being accused by a group of young people in March of false advertising and smuggling products into Canada. Sources say the small business closed its doors in mid-May -- just six weeks after the students' allegations were reported by the media and an investigation was launched by the Better Business Bureau of Western New York. The young people never did get the money they alleged was owed them by Nautica Stars. But Amy L. Eddy of Buffalo says she is pleased her former employer has shut down. 'I'd rather have them go out-of-business than get my money back and see them do this to other people,' the 20-year-old said Friday. She claims the company owes her $260 for expenses and $680 in wages. Founded in January, Nautica Stars distributed generic perfumes that are similar to Obsession, Eternity and other popular fragrances. The products are manufactured by Scentura Creations of Atlanta, a 17-year-old company with 570 sales offices worldwide. Miss Eddy and five other whistle-blowers describe Nautica Stars as nothing more than a sophisticated 'scam' that preyed on people made desperate by unemployment and the recession by promising them career advancement and paid training -- and then not delivering on the promises. The 18- to 23-year-olds say they were told they could earn up to $35,000 a year or about $600 a week. However, they say they were lucky if they made $50 per week. The young people explained that they were given perfume by Nautica Stars to sell on consignment. They could charge whatever price they wanted, as long as $19 was paid to Nautica Stars for every item that was sold. The young adults also allege that they were taken to Canada on selling trips and told to lie to customs inspectors. Nautica Stars forced them to smuggle, they said. The company's owner, John D. Disbro of Williamsville, and his supervisor Michael E. Wallette of Cleveland denied in March all the accusations made by the young adults. However, Nautica Stars closed its offices at 331 Alberta Drive during the first or second week of May, sources say. The telephones were disconnected and mail has been returned unopened to senders. In addition, no one seems to know where Disbro has gone. His home telephone number is unlisted. And New York Telephone Co. and the Amherst Chamber of Commerce say he did not give them a forwarding number. 'He's not doing business with us anymore,' said Bob Hasty, vice president of Scentura Creations, the Atlanta-based manufacturer of the perfumes sold by Nautica Stars. 'I think he's gone out of business,' Hasty said. He also noted that Wallette, the Cleveland man who was supervising Nautica Stars, also has stopped selling perfume. Before closing his business, Disbro wrote to the five young people who had accused him of fraud. In the letter, he denied owing them any money because they had worked as independent contractors. Between January and March, about 250 people sold perfume for the company. However, only about 50 were still with the firm on March 27. The apparent disappearance of Nautica Stars, however, hasn't ended perfume sales in Erie County. Earlier this week, a young man was seen selling similar fragrances in Buffalo Place, the pedestrian mall downtown.

Chievrue, Kim (June 22 2001). "Perfume Sales Company Recruits In Munster, Indiana". The Times (from Munster Indiana).

PERFUME SALES COMPANY RECRUITS IN MUNSTER, IND The Times (from Munster Indiana), 06/22/2001 Kim Chievrue Perfume Sales Company Recruits in Munster, Ind., Area Jun. 22--A Georgia-based company that sells knock-offs of designer perfumes has begun recruiting in Northwest Indiana, with classified ads, which offer 'management positions' earning more than $500 per week. While the business operates legally, according to the Better Business Bureau, one local resident who applied for a management position said he was surprised by what he found. The applicant is a Porter County resident who asked that his name not be used in print. 'At first, they wouldn't even tell us what they were selling,' he said of the mass interview he attended. 'I got as far as the second interview, but then I checked them out on the Internet.' He said the company offered to pay for the training, in cash -- that red flag made him suspicious enough to begin his online research. What he found, he said, was pages of comments from employees and former employees of Scentura Creations nationwide. Some said they had made a good living selling the fragrances door-to-door, but others reported that, like the Porter County applicant, they felt misled by the offer of 'management' opportunities. 'They said you'd be managing your own office, in charge of people going door-to-door, doing sales,' said the applicant. 'But the training is you going door-to-door. You're selling their product, so the office you're training out of makes money.' According to many of those who posted Internet notices about the company, the only opportunity for management requires the salesperson to recruit and hire his own staff out of his own profits. The Better Business Bureau in Merrillville said the company's practices are legal. The BBB file shows Scentura Creations has been in business since 1976 under the name Wholesale Merchandise and W.M. Industries. The principle officers are Lawrence Hahn and Robert Hasty. There is no record of any complaint being filed with the bureau in connection with Scentura Creations. Scentura officials told the BBB they sell fragrance products wholesale to independent contractors, who then resell them. Because the seller is not an actual employee of the company, the report says, the person going door-to-door is responsible for securing the proper business licenses and paying all applicable taxes to government agencies. Vendors pay the wholesaler $17 to $19 per bottle for the fragrances, and resell them for whatever price they can. Scentura is doing business as Extreme Enterprises in Portage. The applicant said he was told the company intends to open 25 more locations in this area. The Better Business Bureau report shows Extreme Enterprises was established in November of 2000; no complaints have been filed about the company. A spokesperson for Extreme Enterprises would not give his title or allow his name to be used, and declined to comment for this story.

Eardley, Linda (June 22 1993). "Ads Spur Warning On Jobs Company's Internship Is Sales Spot, BBB Says". St. Louis Post - Dispatch.

ADS SPUR WARNING ON JOBS COMPANY'S INTERNSHIP IS SALES SPOT, BBB SAYS St. Louis Post - Dispatch St. Louis, Mo.; Jun 22, 1993; Linda Eardley Of the Post-Dispatch Staff; The Better Business Bureau has issued two warnings to young people seeking work this summer. The bureau says American Prestige Co., which distributes Royal Prestige cookware and cutlery, has offered college students a 'summer internship.' But the positions are really 'thinly disguised sales jobs,' the bureau says. American Prestige, of Sunset Hills, mailed letters to about 5,000 college students across the St. Louis area last month, the bureau said. The letter described the internship and said class credit and scholarship programs are available in some cases. 'Several students who were interviewed by the company said they felt misled by the use of the word 'internship,' while the firm's representative talked solely about making money selling the firm's products,' the bureau said. The bureau said the firm's president, Tony Miller, said that students have to arrange class credit on their own and that the scholarships offered by Royal Prestige are based on how much cookware the student sells. Miller could not be reached for comment. John Flotron, trade practice consultant at the bureau, said it received 143 inquiries about American Prestige this month and last month, most of them from students who received the internship letter. The bureau warns students to be careful about answering internship letters or ads that offer any of the following: Unusually large sums of money to be made. No experience necessary for a job with good wages. Pay based on 'qualified' sales presentations, with the company determining what makes them qualified. A requirement that money be paid in advance of employment. The bureau also urges caution when considering employment with several local perfume distributors. These companies advertise in the newspaper for assistant managers. While salaried positions paying up to $40,000 are promised or implied, the positions are primarily commissioned sales jobs, the bureau said. Seven such companies are Orion Enterprises, Genesis Enterprises of Overland, Mirage Enterprises of University City, Phoenix Enterprises of Sappington, Teka Ltd., London Express of St. Charles, and Borealis of St. Charles. All are affiliated with Scentura Creations of Atlanta.

Elmore, Charles (July 27 1992). "Too True To Be Good". The Palm Beach Post.

***TOO TRUE TO BE GOOD**** Charles Elmore The Palm Beach Post July 27, 1992 Pam Butterworth, 33, answered an employment ad in West Palm Beach for managers and assistant managers earlier this month. The interviewer said she had the qualifications to make $30,000 and more with the company-- if she could commit immediately. Looking for a new start anyway, she quit a lower- paying job at a florist shop. Days later, she and more than a dozen other recruits carpooled to Atlanta for a meeting that almost seemed like a revival. The company president said it was the opportunity of a lifetime. Several people, including a woman in a wheelchair, emerged from a crowd of 600 to talk about what it meant to them. The president rewarded some with a $100 bill on the spot. It was exciting, but Butterworth asked about the $30,000 job an interviewer had mentioned. A recruiter told her, 'Don't worry about it, Pam. It's going to work out.' But it never did. The job was selling knockoffs of designer perfume door to door for a commission of $2 to $9 per bottle. It amounted, she said, to 'begging on street corners.' For the first generation that won't end up better off than its parents, The American Dream is getting harder to find. The $15-per-hour manufacturing jobs have nearly disappeared. Economists say a recovery is under way, but 10 million are out of work, 1 million have stopped looking, and 6 million have only part-time jobs when they need to be working full time. And then there are millions who are employed who would gladly trade their safe, boring jobs for adventure, excitement, a chance to hit it big, anything except a pre-planned, financially prudent trudge to the grave. The easy, smug reaction is to laugh. How could people fall for these get- rich-quick schemes, these no-money-down real estate seminars, these too- good-to-be true want ads? The temptation is to hand out boilerplate advice: 'If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.' But this isn't good enough. In real life, the things most people want -- the money to live out their ambitions, respect, happy relationships-- often seem like dreams too good to be true. The truth is far less tidy: We need The Dream, even when we know that, chances are, it is The Lie. The Dream explains why communism collapses and capitalism thrives. And why we buy our lottery tickets knowing the odds are against us-- but also knowing $1 will at least buy us, for a while, one heck of a beautiful fantasy. Promoters of The Dream know exactly who they are trying to reach. 'You're 35 or 40 and you've reached a dead end. You aren't living the American Dream. It's the second chance you need.' …. Whether we embrace it or deny it, The Dream is still there, stretching before us like the sea. Experts find that if they can't stop us from diving in, they can at least tell us to stick a toe in first while while keeping one foot safely on shore. 'Don't quit your job until you've replaced the income in the new venture,' advised Garvey, who once left a teaching job to go into the real estate business for herself-- but not before establishing steady rental income from properties she bought. 'If you go into business for yourself, remember you no longer have benefits like subsidized health insurance,' she said. Also, qualifying for certain kinds of loans, if you need them, will be easier while you have a salaried job. Also remember that unless you are smart enough to be born rich, work will always be involved. 'There are legitimate offers and there are ones that aren't, and in the legitimate ones you're going to have to work hard to make any kind of major income,' said Ron Stephens, president of the Better Business Bureau of Palm Beach County. 'The one that is the scam is usually the one that promises the most. There's no free lunch and no simple get-rich-quick scheme.' And keep an eye open for sharks. It isn't difficult for promoters to create an aura of wealth and excitement, said Jim Lyons, a Tampa-based investigator for the Florida Attorney General's Office. 'Frequently you find that the trappings of wealth are leased,' he said. 'Anybody can rent a Rolls and get up on stage. Testimonials can be plants.' The most common tactic is urgency, exhortations to act now while you feel the passion. As a motivational charge-up, a reason to get up off your couch, that's fine, Lyons said. Just don't let it blind you to reality. Even before Pam Butterworth got to the meeting in Atlanta, she noticed a few things that bothered her, but she stayed with it. She wanted to believe it was going to work out. Once, she said, a recruiter showed how to cheat McDonald's of a few hamburgers, returning a few minutes later and falsely claiming they had left out part of a large order. Another time, her group stopped at a Jacksonville mall and approached strangers there to buy perfume, keeping an eye out for cops who might ask questions about permits. The manufacturer of the perfume she was supposed to sell, Scentura Creations of Chamblee, Ga., accepts no responsibility for the actions of independent distributors who sell its product, said Vice President Bob Hasty. The number of the West Palm Beach recruiter Butterworth said she dealt with has been disconnected. The Better Business Bureau of Atlanta lists an unsatisfactory record for Scentura Creations for reported problems with sales tactics, advertising for sales people and failure to provide requested written information. In Butterworth's case, it wasn't just the money she spent on gas to Atlanta or the time she lost. There was also the opportunity cost, the economist's term for what you give up to do something else. She could not file for unemployment because she had quit her old job. She was a single mother with an 11-year-old child to support. She had a new car to pay off. And there was a psychological cost as well. Butterworth laughed sadly while telling how one of the recruiters gave her $5 because she had a nice smile. Like a lot of us, she had wanted to believe. Recalling the experience, her eyes grew moist and red. 'You feel like you've been raped practically,' she said.

Thomas Jr., E. (October 5 1987). "Who Wants To Be Rich? Larry Hahn: From Sleeping In A Car To A $5 Million Home". Atlanta Business Chronicle 10 (19): 1 (5).

WHO WANTS TO BE RICH? LARRY HAHN: FROM SLEEPING IN A CAR TO A $5 MILLION HOME. E. Thomas Jr.. Atlanta Business Chronicle, Oct 5, 1987 v10 n19 p1(5) (Title only) Larry Hahn's 18,000-square-foot Atlanta villa – one of the most expensive homes ever built on the Atlanta market – has been sold. if contingencies can be worked out. An affidavit acknowledging the purchase agreement was filed in Fulton County Superior Court in August. The sale may signal the departure of one of the city's most successful entrepreneurs. Hahn is president of W.M. Industries Inc (WMI), a wholesaler of consumer products, which have included tools, artwork, and electronics. He is also president of Scentura Creations Inc. a perfume wholesaler. Appearing in a 1984 video, Hahn addresses a throng of salespeople at a Fox Theater rally, telling them that selling WMI products. “The income is unlimited. We have people the first year with this company who made $200,000 or $300,000. We have people consistently making $250,000-$300,000 every single year who were $10,000 and $15,000 earners." Hahn's own reported income is also impressive. A brief filed in Atlanta's district court in a proceeding involving Hahn asserts that “in 1983 WMI paid him a salary of $3,373,758." That figure is more than double Coca-Cola CEO Robert Goizueta's current salary. Hahn declined to discuss his plans or his business., but friends say he plans to buy a home in the San Francisco area. Perched atop a hill in Northwest Atlanta's wealthy Winterhur neighborhood, Hahn's house contains a gymnasium, screening room, several terraces and balconies and a 2,000-square –foot bedroom. “The whole three years we were building it, cars were stacked up outside four cars back just to look at the house." Says John Allen project manager for the contractor. The home was put on the market for about $7 million two years ago, about the same time it was completer. The home recently listed for $5 million. For a dozen years, the 43 year old Hahn has built a wholesale business relying on direct sales of products ranging from luggage to toys to perfume. Currently, Hahn serves as president of W.M. Industries Inc., founded in 1975, and Scentura Creations, Inc., incorporated earlier this year. A W.M. Industries brochure has declared that more then 300 offices and 8,000 salespeople marketed products offered by W.M. Industries. The brochure also charts the company's first six years in sales, touting $150 million in gross annual product sales the six year, climbing steadily from 12.5 million five years before. Current revenue figures for WMI, Scentura Creations or their distributors—all of which are private companies—are not available. A September 1987 Scentura Creations newsletter, however, states that more than 33,000 jars of one new products sold out in two weeks. Independent firms purchase products from W.M. Industries or Scentura Creations and sell the directly to people in their offices, on the street and in their homes, The direct vendors of WMI products work for the independent firms not the central office. None of their sales managers or salespeople, the people in the field, were on salary," says Gordan Gates, former WMI executive vice president. “They were all independent contractors." In addition to the actual products, distributors receive motivational and informational material from W.M. Industries or Scentura Creations. A 1984 WMI motivational film sent to distributors begins with the “Rocky" theme playing behind Hahn's narration: “Who wants to be a millionaire? Who wants to be rich? Who wants to be financially independent? To be in business for yourself to support yourself and your family and do everything you ever dreamed about?" In the film, a sea of people attending a rally at the Fox Theatre cheer widely as salespeople deliver testimonials describing their success selling WMI products. Before a flag-dropped backdrop, salesperson after salesperson reveals success stories: “My first year in business with W.M. Industries I made more than the prime minister of Canada." Says one speaker. Says another, “ The closest people to me tried to talk me out of it: they didn't know that last year the average age of our owner was 24 with an income over $125,000." Hahn emerges on stage from a cloud of smoke. When the applause finally dims, he explains the opportunity: “ I don't care what your background or education: if you're loyal, you're dependable and you're willing to work hard. I'll see to it that you have your chance to become an owner and be into business for yourselves." The profit attained by salespeople and distributors varies widely. Speakers in the film and profiles in a WMI brochure say possibilities are endless. A WMI brochure describes the experience of Johnny Whitworth, who is still with Hahn: “ He left behind a salary of $150,000, but that didn't bother Johnny. With hard work, enthusiasm, and doing things the “WMI" way, after one year his income hit $600,000." Indeed, certain former managers of WMI product sales who were interviewed confirmed high incomes in their own careers. Linda Fucci, an administrative aide to Hahn at the start of WMI and an independent distributor of WMI until 1984, says she and her husband took in about $5000,000 a year at their peak. Eric Bresler, former manager of Canadian sales, says he left WMI a millionaire. On the other hand, former managers point out that turnover of salespeople was high in their offices. “We had very few that would stay with us for a long period of time." Fucci says, “You never could back off from recruiting." WMI has supported distributors with training to help boost sales. “We have a three-part training program."? Hahn says in the film. “We teach them how to hire, train, motivate and get along with other people , ant thn once we do that, we then teach them how to become better businessman. The day that you complete the W.M. Industries training program is the day we hand you the money to go into business for yourself." Though they buy their products and receive literature from W.M. Industries or Scentura Creations, independent sales offices are free to recruit and sell however they wish, says Kerry Brunson, current sales manager in the Dallas area. After moving to Atlanta from Miami, Hahn worked in real estate and portrait plan sales and was part owner in the original Underground Atlanta's Scarlet O'Hara nightclub before launching WMI, according to Judy Adelman, a friend of Hahn's. “Fifteen years ago," says Hahn in the 1984 film, “I slept in my car, and I had no finances, I had no education, and I just said one day, if I could hook myself to the proper vehicle toi get a break in life and make some money, I would help other people." With funds secured from friends, Hahn in 1975 purchased his first load of products, 31 piece sets of bake ware. At first, Hahn was head trainer, head salesman and head deal-maker, recruiting and training distributors himself. Hahn went out in the fields for about the first year and a a half and “he personally trained about all the people he brought on board at the beginning." Fucci says. “Larry would take them out and show them how they could make $100 in a day. He'd go business to business, just walk in, and the pitch was very short and sweet." The independent contractor concept “was preconceived before the first truck load was ordered in." Fucci says. “It was already planned out before we ever opened up." Although other companies also sold door-to-door, W.M. Industries differed by selling to distributors in numerous permanent locations. “Larry just made it more professional." Says Fucci, now a real estate agent in Lawrenceville. Soon, the product line swelled to include pots, pans and carving knives. Initially, W.M. Industries sold its products to about 10 distributorships, Fucci says. “And then it just started going like wildfire. It just caught on and we expanded our line to artworks, then luggage, then clothing and electronics." WMI products were manufactured in both the United States and abroad, including Asia. The products tend to be “impulse buys," items that can be sold for $20 to $40. “All we were was a moving Sears or Belks," says Mike Brewer, former WMI vice president. “If you went fishing, would you like to go fishing off a pier or a boat?" As the product line proliferated, Hahn created divisions of WMI, whose managers often worked out of the WMI home office, though generally still only on commission. By the early 1980's, rallies like the one shown in the 1984 film had grown to accommodate thousands of WMI product salespeople and sales managers. “In 1982, we had the rally in the Fox Theatre," Fucci says. “We had about 4,000 people in and they came from Canada, Australia and Puerto Rico, where we had an office at the time. “People would absolutely go bonkers." She says, “They'd holler ‘super juice' a lot—that was just a thing to get the adrenaline flowing, and, of course, they chanted, ‘Larry' a lot. There were balloons flying and horns going and confetti being thrown every which way." Incentive prizes at rallies were substantial: Porsches, Cadillacs and trips to Monte Carlo. Inspirational, sometimes tear-jerking testimonials gave the rallies structure. “We'd have 2-3-4-5-6,000 people," says Brewer, now president of North Carolina's M.B. Industries, a sales company. “The tears would just roll down their eyes. Because I'd tell them my testimonial and, you know, my testimonial was that I was a high school dropout – and that I came from a normal background and this was an opportunity for an above-average income and get all the things they ever dreamed of." Promotional materials distributed by WMI and Scentura Creations stress the concept of “family". The song “We Are Family" plays in the background of the 1984 film. One section of the WMI and Scentura Creations newsletters is entitled “Family News" and congratulates salespeople for various accomplishments, such as high sales volume or the opening of a new distributorship. Says Hahn in the film: “ there is somebody that cares. I don't know every one of you, but I can feel that you're hungry, that you need a break in your life. That's what this is all about." Fucci agrees the opportunity was substantial. “I certainly was very proud to be connected with a company that gave people so much opportunity as Larry gave them." She says, “to make what they felt they were worth, not what someone else thought they were worth." Today Scentura Creations concentrates on selling “eight well-known designer fragrances," according to the flier. Billed in fliers as “Obsession Type" “Giorgio Type" and “Poison Type" the fragrances have been sold throughout Atlanta as well as other cities. “Our perfumers select the finest imported oils and essences and blend them into top designer scents at a fraction of designer prices," a flier states. Bruson's office sells 500 to 1,000 bottles a week, or $10,000 to $20,000 worth, he says. Despite the fact that the promotional fliers clearly sates that the fragrances are “Obsession Type" or “Giorgio Type" officials in Texas and Iowa have found fault with the vendors of WMI products. An El Paso County, Texas, police report from April states: “The subjects [alleged to be] ‘Managerial agents' for W.M. Industries, had employees selling their products on a door-to-door sales campaign and all were purporting that their products were manufactured by the authentic companies who also manufacture the trade name products. (i.e. GIORGIO, OPIUM, POISON, OBSESSION, etc.) and that their products were the same but bottles without the trade name so that they could be sold for less. An officer, working in an undercover capacity, was able to link the five subjects by admissions that they were aware that their products were actually inferior products and knew that they were being passed off as authentic brands." A 1986 complaint filed in the Iowa District Court for Polk County by the State of Iowa against numerous defendants including W.M. Industries states: “In the course of conducting their business, Defendants have violated the Iowa Consumer Fraud Act, Iowa Code § 714.16 (1985), either personally or through their agents, [by]: “a. making false, deceptive and/or misleading statements to potential customers about the nature of the transaction and the origin of the goods being sold…about the quality of the goods…[and] the price of the goods being sold…[and] about the prior sales of the goods to other individuals." Hahn discouraged illegal tactics some former managers sat. “Larry would tell you not to misrepresent," Fucci says. “But then again we were not out there with the people all the time. If it did get back to us that one of our salesmen come to misrepresenting the product, that person was called in and asked why." “I never heard Larry tell anybody to be dishonest in the business," she says. “He said there was too much business out there to lie about it." While Scentura Creations distributes products across the country, friends of Hahn say the entrepreneur has long wanted to move to the West Coast. In one of the few articles on Hahn ever published in the local market—a 1984 feature story in The Atlanta Journal-Constitution about Hahn's house –Hahn articulated that ambition. “I want to move to San Francisco," he said. “It's got Camel. Monterey, the wine country…there's more action there."

(February 15 1996) "Officials: Scent Of Fraud Lingers In Sales Scheme". The Atlanta Journal Atlanta, Associated Press.
OFFICIALS: SCENT OF FRAUD LINGERS IN SALES SCHEME The Atlanta Journal the Atlanta Constitution Atlanta, Ga.; Feb 15, 1996; Associated Press; Jackson-area customers had ordered and paid for over $2,000 worth of Scentura Creations products, which are copycats of brand-name fragrances like Ralph Lauren's Polo or Calvin Klein's CK One, consumer protection director Morgan F. Spands said.

So these articles can be posted somewhere else if linking them to ripoffreport.com is the problem. Calendar 22:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, I get it now. Check out WP:CITE#HOW, 'Say where you got it', that should help you clean it up. Dlabtot 21:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Why the weasel words?

The lead states: "there are people who are critical of Scentura's business practices." -- there's no reason to say that. The reliably sourced statement: "In a court battle with a former distributor, the Illinois Appellate Court ruled that this company was a "pyramid sales scheme..." not only describes the business practice that is being criticized - being a "pyramid sales scheme" - but also says exactly who is doing the criticising - the Illinois Appellate Court. Further, the statement implies - without any reference to a reliable source - that while some are critical, others are giving praise. If this POV can be cited to a reliable source, than it should explicitly appear in the article rather than be implied with the weasel words "there are people". And finally, the article isn't really long enough or detailed enough to separate into sections. Dlabtot 19:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I removed the "there are people" second sentence, another excellent point. While the sentence may work better in the criticism section, standing alone it is rather awkward and a weasel sentence.

I actually prefer the sections added yesterday by another user, but that is everybody's call. Calendar 12:03, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Latest edits everything needs a source and a cite

The anon 66.167.79.158 had some good edits,[1] let me explain:

"Door to Door is knocking on someone's house. Scentura doesn't condone that practice."

Scentura goes door to door to businesses. The do not condone going door to door to houses.

I am quoting Stieffel, Kristen (September 2001). "Perfume Bandits. (Fake Perfume Offered In Parking Lots)". Orlando Business Journal 18 (16): 23.

Unless I am mistaken, the majority of the sales of scentura is from:

• FFAR. (Friends, Family and Relatives) who new recruits are supposed to 'practice' selling on.
• sell perfume door to door to businesses and
• in parking lots.

So the "(i.e. business to business, corporate discount plans, person to person)" statment is vague and not covering the majority of the sales.

Also: ANY CHANGES PLEASE CITE WITH A REFERENCE.

RE: From: "Scentura is described by the Better Business Bureau as a "multilevel selling company." to "Scentura is described by the Better Business Bureau as a "multilevel marketing company." this is a direct quote, please do not change direct quotes for references, thank you.

You deleted a direct quote, from a cited reference:

The firm manufacturers inexpensive imitations of designer fragrances. Salespeople are sent out, often in pairs, to hawk the product door-to-door or, yes, in parking lots.

Please do not do this.

RE: "WMI was a door-to-door retail business which sold products such as luggage, toys and perfume." to "WMI was a wholesale business which sold products such as luggage, toys and perfume" again, this is a paraphrased quote from a cited reference. Please do not change it unless you have another referenced source.

RE: "Also World Perfume, which no longer exists, is a completely separate company from Scentura", "World Perfume is no longer in business because of many controversial business practices. Many people have confused World Perfume with Scentura and have viewed it as one and the same."

Yes. It is a seperate company, which the article acknowledges. That is wonderful if WP is out of business. The business practices of World perfume were taken from Scentura. The companies were almost identical. There is no need to argue this if indeed World Perfume is closed, and there are no references to back up these statements.

RE: "Daniel Long left with Johnny Whitworth and refused to return Scentura's merchandise."

Please cite a reference. Johnny Whitworth is not mentioned in the case. You can quote the case if you like.

RE: In 2001, the Illinois Appellate Court ruled that the contract between Scentura and Long was a "pyramid sales scheme", violated the county law and was unenforceable.

The Illinois Appellate Court is not a county court, it is a appeals court of the state of Illinois. Therefore the rulings of the Illinois Appellate Court are binding upon the entire state of Illinois. In fact, one other case later cites this case. It is good case law.

RE: "Training is from four to eight weeks." to "Training is from six to eight weeks."

I think you are correct. Maybe four to eight weeks was the training period several decades ago. I will restore this edit, delete the reference, and add a fact tag. Please provide a source for this statment.

PLEASE CITE YOUR ADDITIONS. For example, I would love to talk about the FFAR program for new trainees, and the training manuals, and some of the other practices of Scentura, but no news source mentions these items, so it has stayed out of the article. If it isn't sourced, it shouldn't be in the article.

Thanks. Calendar 03:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I wish I could use myself as a source. My group was told we would be managing our own office in 6 weeks. But that was back in 1995 or 96. I was only there a day or two.--Susan118 (talk) 14:17, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Information on new office moved to talk page

I removed the anons entry from the main page to the talk page:

Scentura currently has a office in Brooklyn, New York. This branch is located in an unmarked building adjacent to the trains A,C on Broadway Junction street. The company calls itself Linshe Management, G-Unit, and DSM as opposed to Scentura Creations. It relies heavily upon advertising in the New York Post and New York Daily News. The ad often looks like:

Wanted for New Off Loc
30 ppl
Cust Serv, Sales, Management
NO Exp Nec
Call Miss Johnson/Miss Torres/Miss Robinson 718-240-9063

This information is useful, but it is better listed on the talk page. The main page is supposed to look like an encyclopedia entry, with general information on the company, not specific offices listed by the public. Calendar 22:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge Ultimate Fragrance into this page?

I proposed merging Ultimate Fragrance into this page for the following reasons:

--The article begins with the line:"Ultimate Fragrance, also known as Scentura Creations, World Perfume, or Ultimate Wholesale is a perfume company based in the city of Saint Louis, Missouri, within the Saint Louis metropolitan area". Right there that line states they are all names for the same company. (Although I believe elsewhere in this talk page someone mentioned World Perfume is not associated with Scentura at all, so that may be an error on Ultimate's page).

--The information on Ultimate's page, while not as complete, is nearly identical to what is on Scentura's page. It does list a different founding date and location, but everything else is the same.

--If the company operates under several different names, Scentura Creations seems to be the main one. I think it would be a good idea to put all the alternate names on the main Scentura page, and just note any information that may differ.--Susan118 (talk) 14:29, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Nice job, I merged the page. Calendar (talk) 02:16, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Newspaper sources with no dates, no article title, no reporter's name

There are multiple sources cited in this article, purportedly from newspapers, where only the name (sometimes the wrong name) of the newspaper is given, then an "excerpt" from the article. No date. No article title. No reporter's name. Is this acceptable sourcing to help defame a subject on Wikipedia? -- CRedit 1234 (talk) 07:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Why are almost all of the links broken? How about some real links?

I'm sorry to bother everyone but I'm trying to do research for a course in Stanford about direct sales: the pros and cons. My paper has to do about the pros and cons of direct sales and the history of it. I can't use any of these links and references because well they're almost all dead ends and some of the links are just straight false. More than half the reference don't even have links. More than half of those with links say they point to a news company/station but they go to a blank page on ripoffreport.com. Only 8 links that actually work out of 38, rubs me the wrong way. This article seems very biased and I usually use this encyclopedia as a starting point. I would hope that I could continue to use that.

Here's my review of the links:

1. 1) Takes me to a portal for my local library leads me to half written article by the orlando business journal through a library system which leads me to "article not found" I searched online for the Orlando Business Journal and searched for Scentura Creations. All I found was a small blurb about the company history. Nothing negative.
2. 2) broken link to ripoffreport.com and a blank page. Nothing close to the false Atlanta Business Chronicle. Searched that, got nothing. Same blurb as link #1
3. 3) good link. Tough read.
4. 4) no link
5. 5) is a link to another wikipedia page. Nothing to do with what the reference claims. No articles on Scentura or it's distributors.
6. 6) Link is good. But it is about EOE Management not Scentura Creations. This should be used for a page on EOE Management.
7. 7-13,15,17-19,21-23) no link again. Searched for that paper, found it online, no articles found again.
8. 14) Same as #6? Why do you need to reference the same article twice? Again, it's for EOE Management not Scentura Creations.
9. 16) Link is broken. Error 500. Searched main site for articles. Again nothing.
10. 20) Link is finally good again! But unfortunately it's about EMO Management now. Again not Scentura Creations. Though I like how they at least mentioned that Scentura was the supplier and they cannot control independent business owners. That makes total sense to me.
11. 24) Snopes.com? Seriously? That's laughable. Even the title says, "rumor has it". Even the status says: FALSE. I gave it a read anyway. The references on the bottom do not have any sources relating to Scentura Creations. Only sources they have relates to the ether perfume hoax.
12. 25-26,28-32,34,36-37) broken link to ripoffreport.com. Ends with a blank page. Can't use that site anyway.
13. 27) Good link. But again for a distributor called International Design. Not Scentura Creations. They merely mention Scentura as the manufacturer of the fragrances.
14. 33) Same as link #1
15. 35) Good link. About Rhino Enterprises, very vague article as well. Many subjective points. Who are these "job-seekers"? The other articles used names. But again, not Scentura Creations.
16. 38) Good link but again Pittsburgh Wholesale, not Scentura Creations.

So after I did all this, I called Scentura Creations myself. I spoke with Karey. I asked how many distributors does Scentura Creations supply? She said over 250 offices worldwide. So out of 250 offices there has been 4 REAL news articles written about their independent distributors that are supplied here. One of those articles was so vague and subjective I couldn't believe it's even used here. So that means that 246 offices could easily running their operations legitimately. To use the words "Nationwide media coverage on the company has tended to be overwhelmingly negative" is a huge exaggeration given the references provided.

Now if this was a general page for Scentura Distributors, not the company itself, then I could see using those sources because there's always some bad apples in every bunch. There should be a positive side and negative side to it. Just like any other page on here.

Is there real true research on this company? I asked my professor about this and he said that he's heard of Scentura Creations and believes that they have a legitimate business model. He's never been involved with direct sales but he believes that any good business person should realize the pros and cons of every business model available. He also expressed that I should use this company since they are the only direct sales company that does not require a customer to buy into it but rather work into it. It makes it a very interesting concept.

He also told us to avoid consumer forums where the website DOES NOT act as a mediator between the consumer and business in question. When I brought him my rough draft he said I couldn't use any of the references from ripoffreport.com, complaintsboard.com, or any other forum because most of the complaints on these site are fabricated and/or extremely one-sided and an embellishment of the truth. He also stated that opinions are not facts. Also, there is no way for a legitimate company can resolve the complaints.

I read the news articles but all of them are about independent distributors that are customers of Scentura Creations, not the company itself. Therefore I can't use them. The only factual link that I can use is the court decision from lowest tier court system in Illinois. From that judgment, I can conclude that State of Illinois' Consumer Fraud Act would consider Scentura Creations a pyramid scheme. Again, I brought this up to my professor and he said, "Sorry, you better find something better than Appellate court decision to be convincing in the real world." That stung because it took me forever to read through it.

After going through it again, it doesn't mean that Scentura breaches the Federal Consumer Fraud Act nor any other states version. To be totally honest, it seems the judge really stretched out to make this ruling. Maybe I'm wrong here but if this company was really doing bad things to people wouldn't it have been moved to the Federal Court system?

So if you have more links about Scentura and their wrong doing that would be amazing. I really hope wikipedia doesn't turn into the likes of Snope.com If used wikipedia before for many things and I have never come across an article this fabricated. This for my MBA and I would like to use actual facts for my research. This will be published one day and I hope to be able to say something positive about Wikipedia.

Thanks for the time all. I know this was long.

TJArandon1223 (talk) 19:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)TJ

No Responses?

How come no one has done anything about this?

In the essence of keeping up with the standard that Wikipedia has upheld with almost any other page about anything, I can just edit this myself and remove any lines that point to links that are broken or having little/nothing to do with Scentura.

If anyone disagrees let me know so we can actually move forward here. If anyone has links that truly work and that go along with the statements on this page that I have no problem keeping them up. But no one seems to even care. I'll check back in a few days. Let me know.

TJArandon1223 (talk) 16:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)TJ

Amazed by no responses.

How pathetic. I wrote out a complete explanation of these broken links and still no one does anything. So I take it upon myself to edit out anything with false links. I figured since no one really cared, it was no big deal. But instead, someone cowardly reverts the article right back to it's false and irresponsible state.

To the person who undid my edited article using only the working links that refer directly to Scentura, I have to call you a coward. You can't even have the decency to discuss it. I read the history on this page. Others have tried to edit the incredibly biased statements in this article posing as facts. Unreal.

Well, I guess we get what we pay for. Free encyclopedia with false and biased information. Way to help ruin Wikipedia's reputation online. You should see the news articles popping up over and over about how wikipedia is more or less a fountain of misinformation. You sir, are one of the reasons.

-TJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by TJArandon1223 (talk • contribs) 03:25, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

removing legitamate newspaper articles

This article has gone from an extremly well source article to an advertisement for scentura with zero references. I reverted and posted a complaint here: Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Scentura

Just because the article links are broken does not mean the sources are in anyone incorrect. Per Wikipedia:Link rot:

"Do not delete factual information solely because the URL to the source does not work any longer. WP:Verifiability does not require that all information be supported by a working link, nor does it require the source to be published online."

I could probably post ALL 38 here if that is what it takes. I already posted a dozen of these articles above: Talk:Scentura#ripoffreport.com Calendar2 (talk) 21:14, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Per findings of olyeller21, "Nick Brunson is the web-admin for Scentura. Adding COI tag until the content can be assessed and cleaned up if warranted" Calendar2 (talk) 22:07, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Calendar2 here that the material from the newspapers ought to be included for the most part. I'm willing to discuss each sentence individually, but I don't think it's OK for Nick Brunson to remove vast swaths of well cited material with argumentative and uninformative edit summaries.— alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 16:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Here is a youtube video I found which can't be added to the main page as I don't know its source. Calendar2 (talk) 19:43, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

References recently removed from the article

• Turnbull, Lornet (2002). "Perfume-Selling Operations Smell Like Scam, Women Say". Columbus Ohio Dispatch. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
• "If it sounds too good to be true". Eyewitness News Noblesville, Indianapolis. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
• "Perfume jobs smell fishy, BBB says". New Orleans Channel 6. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month= and |coauthors= (help)
• Taylor, Iris (2002). "Know What You Are Applying For When Answering A Want Ad". Richmond Times - Dispatch. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
• "Perfume Purveyors Are Real Thing, Even If The Myth Isn't". Richmond Times - Dispatch. 2000. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
• Flannery, Thomas L (1997). "There's Big Dollars In Street Scents". Intelligencer Journal. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
• Madore, James T. (1992). "Perfume Sales Just A Smelly Scam? Young People Say Amherst Company Fails On Training, Pay Promises". Buffalo News. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
• Madore, James T. (1992). "Former Employees Cheer Reports Perfume Firm Is Out Of Business". Buffalo News. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
• Chievrue, Kim (2001). "Perfume Sales Company Recruits In Munster, Indiana". The Times (from Munster Indiana). {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

Eardley, Linda (1993). "Ads Spur Warning On Jobs Company's Internship Is Sales Spot, BBB Says". St. Louis Post - Dispatch. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

• "Workers Say Perfume Business Stinks Employees Sell Knockoff Perfume". WPBF News. 2002. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
• Elmore, Charles (1992). "Too True To Be Good". The Palm Beach Post. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
• "Officials: Scent Of Fraud Lingers In Sales Scheme". The Atlanta Journal Atlanta, Associated Press. 1996. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
• "Team 4 Investigates Perfume Scheme". WTAE TV Channel 4 Pittsburgh. 2004. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

—Northamerica1000^(talk) 14:04, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I removed this: Nationwide media coverage on the company has tended to be overwhelmingly negative. Calendar2 (talk) 18:21, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Facts about Scentura Creations

Fact No. 1 - Scentura Creations distributes perfume to Independent Business owners on an international level (http://www.scenturacreations.com/about-overview-new.html). They do not sell perfume door-to-door.

Fact No. 2 - Scentura does not have salespeople. They have a receptionist, a customer service manager, a warehouse manager, a production coordinator, and a general manager. Therefore any reference to "Scentura Salespeople" on this page should be removed, and there are a lot of them.

Fact No. 3 - Due to the fact that Scentura's customers are Independent Distributors, they do not, and legally CANNOT, dictate the business practices of the businesses that resell their products. Therefore several entries, such as:

 "Sometimes, new salespeople are promised large salaries and are later disappointed to discover that the actual position has no salary and is a 100% commission job." 

 "The only income is from selling knock off perfume door-to-door or in parking lots."

 "Employees are also sometimes encouraged by independent distributors to lie about the products they are selling."

 "Scentura salespeople have been in trouble with police for soliciting without a permit."

...should be deleted because none of these instances describe SCENTURA'S business practices, or people that are employed by, or are dictated by Scentura Creations. These entries describe business practices of Independent Distributors, and therefore should be noted on the Wikipedia page for the Independent Distributor in question.

Fact No. 3 - W.M.I. was not a door-to-door sales business. W.M.I. had the same business model as Scentura Creations - distributing to Independent Resellers. W.M.I. never employed any salespeople.

Other items:

1. The entry regarding...

"There is an urban legend that similar tactics were being used by thieves who, instead of using perfume, would have the victim inhale a substance (reportedly ether) which would render her unconscious, whereupon she would be robbed."

should be removed because it is irrelevant. It even says in the article that there have been no credible reports. And besides, if someone gets robbed at knife point, should we blame Pampered Chef?

2. Everyone keeps talking about "reliable sources." Quite frankly, just about everyone of these sources is flawed because they are falsely identifying Scentura as the Independent Distributor. For example, anytime you see something that says "Scentura now has an office in (insert city)," the article is inaccurate by default because Scentura has only one location, their office and warehouse in Chamblee, GA.

3. If I go to a restaurant and receive poor service from the waiter, should I blame the restaurant's food supplier? No, I would take my issue up with the business owner. It is irresponsible to blame Scentura for something they have no control over, namely the business tactics of the customers that purchase their product.

4. It is also irresponsible to say that "Nationwide media coverage on the company has tended to be overwhelmingly negative." because, once again, these sources are falsely identifying Scentura as the Independent Distributor, and therefore CANNOT be considered legitimate sources. NickBrunson (talk) 04:34, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

5. The YouTube video posted in this discussion by alf.laylah.wa.laylah is, once again, irrelevant because it features an Independent Business that resells Scentura's product-line, but does not feature Scentura. In fact, at 0:18 of the video, the sign on the business says "A.M.G."

if there are no indepedent sources, it does not belong in the article. Calendar2 (talk) 18:03, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

@NickBrunson: You're confused. I didn't post any youtube videos anywhere. If you would calm down and try to understand how wikipedia works, you'd have a much better chance of having some influence on this discussion and on the shape of the article. If you keep putting walls of text up here which don't support your arguments and which show ignorance of and indifference to wikipedia's policies, you're almost certainly going to end up being ignored by everyone. Why don't you take a few minutes to read WP:RS and WP:V so you can see what people are talking about when they use the words "reliable sources". Your word on what this company is like is not a reliable source. Most of the company's internally generated documents are not reliable sources except for very specific and very narrowly limited kinds of facts.— alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 19:55, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Mr. Brunson is probably talking about the video I posted above, on this talk page, while I was searching. I clearly stated it probably does not belong in the article.

The state of Illinois ruled that Scentura was a "pyramid sales scheme":

(Scentura) is a manufacturer and distributor of rendition perfume products to independent wholesaler consignees. On November 29, 1995, defendant entered into a consignment contract with (Scentura). Pursuant to the contract, (Scentura) was to provide defendant with perfume products. Defendant would sell the products to an end user for the consignment price. Payment of the consignment price for the perfume products was due when defendant sold the products to an end user. The agreement was for a term of 30 days and was automatically renewed unless one party gave written notice of termination. If defendant terminated the agreement, he was to hold all merchandise in his possession for a period of 30 days "until (Scentura) shall have an opportunity to remove such merchandise."

In our view, the consignment contract between (Scentura) and defendant is properly characterized as a chain referral sales technique or pyramid sales scheme, which falls within the protection of section 2A of the Act. See People ex rel. Hartigan v. Unimax, Inc., 168 Ill. App. 3d 718 (1988) (holding that a marketing scheme whereby the marketer obtained commissions dependent upon bringing others into the system fell within the definition of a prohibited "pyramid sales scheme" under the Consumer Fraud Act). The testimony at the arbitration hearing, provided in support of (Scentura)'s motion for summary judgment, unequivocally establishes that defendant was compensated by (Scentura) for bringing other consignees into the Scentura system and that his compensation was contingent upon (Scentura)'s delivery of perfume to the other consignees. The contractual arrangement, which effectually rendered defendant a guarantor for the perfume delivered to the other consignees that defendant referred, places defendant at the top of the pyramid or head of the chain. The contractual relationship between (Scentura) and defendant is an unlawful practice and is prohibited by section 2A of the Act.

The numerous media accounts support the Appelate Court of Illinois statment.

Calendar2 (talk) 21:03, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Poor Sources

Is it logical to make statements about a company using references that don't even name that company? This article uses references that identify the actions and business practices of people, salespersons, distributors, etc. over which Scentura has no legal dictation. If I visit a car dealership and receive poor customer service on from the sales staff, do I blame the manufacturer of the car? Any statement made on this page based on a reference that doesn't even name Scentura should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.219.201.92 (talk) 04:19, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Which references are you unhappy about? The one you removed from the Orlando Business Journal certainly does mention Scentura. Which of the ones you removed doesn't, and what was sourced to it? Can we just talk about one sentence or one source at a time?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 04:32, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I suppose that makes sense. Here are the items that stand out for me:

1) Initial Scentura description, second and third sentences: when I click on the reference labeled [1], I'm taken to an AccessMyLibrary.com page that talks briefly about "people approaching women in parking lots and asking them to sniff perfume." It doesn't mention Scentura, it doesn't say anything about Scentura's product-line, and it doesn't mention multi-level marketing. It does look like an incomplete article though, maybe I'm not seeing the button that says "read more." And the third sentence doesn't seem accurate at all. It's closer to describing tactics of businesses that resell Scentura's product, but it doesn't describe Scentura itself. Everything I've read says that Scentura is the manufacturer and supplier, but doesn't deal directly with the end customer. That third sentence should be removed altogether, and replaced with something that clearly describes their role as a supplier.

There's a quote from the article in the note. I can't see the full article either. Do you have some reason to doubt that the sentence is in the article?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk)

2) History section, last sentence regarding Johnny Whitworth: This sentence implies that Whitworth was employed by Larry Hahn. Seems pretty clear to me that the independent distributors are not employees. That sentence should be re-worded.

I have no opinion on this. As far as I'm concerned, the whole sentence can be removed. I don't see how it implies that anyone was employed by anyone, though.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 23:26, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

3) Anything that references the Atlanta Business Chronicle link (reference #3) should be removed because it's clearly someone's commentary, not an actual article. It starts off with "Larry Hahn, founder of Scentura, was a genius. The beauty of the world perfume and Scentura pyramid is this..." Doesn't seem credible by any stretch. There are at least two sentences that reference this source.

This article I actually have access to. Regardless of what the first sentence is, and regardless of whether it seems credible, it's a reliable source and it says what's cited to it. I think that this material is adequately supported.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 23:26, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

4) In the Business Model section, "Independent distributors recruit salespeople...": This is a relatively specific statement to make about ALL distributors who sell Scentura's product-line, not to mention the fact that this doesn't describe Scentura's business practices, but rather those of independent distributors.

I'll get back to this one.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 23:26, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

5) Also in the Business Model section, "Sometimes, new salespeople are promised...": None of the references mention Scentura Creations, and it's clear that they refer to incidents involving independent resellers. There is nothing in these references that describes Scentura's tactics or business model.

That's not true. I checked stories in the Columbus Dispatch, the Richmond Times-Dispatch, and the Intelligencer Journal, and every one of them talks about Scentura and its business practices and business model. Since the stories aren't cited specifically in the article, I don't see how you can say that none of the references mention Scentura. It's not clear now what the references are. It will be soon, though, and they're accurate.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 23:26, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

6) Also in the Business Model section, "Employees are also sometimes...": Another statement that references sources that don't describe Scentura's business practices, but that of independent resellers. The incidents described in these sources are clearly not identifying the "subjects" as employees of Scentura Creations, therefore this statement should be removed. **Same thing for the immediate following sentence.

I'll get back to this one.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 23:26, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

7) I think a section should be added that addresses the abundance of complaint forums, or "scam" boards, that are prevalent online on which Scentura has received a lot of negative press. It's pretty clear that most of the complaints should are directed at the independent reseller for their own tactics, rather than Scentura, even if Scentura's name is mentioned. Again, If I go to an auto dealership and receive poor service from the sales staff, do I blame the car manufacturer, or take my issue up with dealership management. In the interest of providing unbiased and neutral information regarding Scentura, seems like something should be mentioned about that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.219.201.92 (talk) 06:21, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

This one too.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 23:26, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Look, I am not going to go around and around for years with employees of Scentura, arguing the same facts. I dont have the enegery or desire. The only source I need is this: #Independent above. The state of Illinois ruled that Scentura was a "pyramid sales scheme". They connected the behavior of Scentura with the behavior of the distributors.

If we need to anon, we can request a checkuser and find out if you are Nick Bruson, an internet designer involved in Scentura. You have not been banned from editing this page, but if this continues, you will be. People with Conflict of Interests are restricted all the time from editing pages.

As this last deletion discussion showed, the community as a whole will not be pursuaded by Scentura's obfuscations. The more you push to remove the history of Scentura, the more people in the community will be alerted to your behavior.

What was the result of the last whitewash attempt?

1. An alert to the Conflict of Interest board.
2. One Conflict of Interest editor found out that an internet designer involved in Scentura, Nick Brunson, was removing all the sources and created the whitewashed article.
3. We then had a deletion discussion which was closed SNOWBALL keep.
4. The Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron, Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Fashion Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Business were all alerted to this article.
5. Active veteran editors User:Northamerica1000 and User:alf.laylah.wa.laylah are now involved in the article, making sure no more mass source deletions occur.
6. END RESULT: The article is tighter and better written than it was before all this happened. The exact opposite of what you wanted has happened: the stronger points are now more emphasized (State of Illinois decision) and the weaker points have been removed (urban legends).

The more attempts to whitewash the history of Scentura, the more the community will be alerted to this article. It is a circle which will only result in a stronger article in the end. As the past two snowball keep deletion discussions show, wikipedians have never had very much patience with pyramid sales scheme supporters.

Calendar2 (talk) 18:41, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Comments from Jason Parker:

I'm new to Wikipedia so pardon my lack of understanding of how to use the right characters and codes, etc.

I have heard of Scentura Creations through a friend and former fellow student who has recently become involved with them. He has worked with this company for about three weeks now. When he told me what he was doing, being interested in business and marketing, I did some research. Initially I was negative about Scentura as there is an overwhelming amount of bad press on Google. However, the more I read, the more I struggle to find legitimate information on Scentura. Most of what you find is on RipOffReport.com, etc. and those sites are hardly credible. I assumed Wikipedia would be the one place to find well supported statements of fact regarding Scentura, but this article seems more like a slam page. And having read some of the sections on this talk, I'm not the only one who thinks so. The two main issues I see are this:

1. Statements are being made about Scentura based on references that don't identify them in the article (this seems to be the main argument of the person listed just above).

2. The Illinois Appellate Court's verbiage, identifying Scentura as a "pyramid scheme," is really confusing. First of all, pyramid schemes are illegal in the United States (and many other countries). And according to Scentura's website, they have been in business for 36 years. That doesn't add up. How does a business operate for that long with an illegal business model. And according to the definition of pyramid scheme (which is mirrored by Wikipedia's own definition: http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Pyramid_scheme), it's a non-sustainable business model that is supported by payments from new entrants. I asked my friend if he paid anything to join, and he said no. Supposedly that's one of the selling points during the recruiting process of the office he works at... "No investment required." So if that's the case, how does Scentura, a company that has been in business for 36 years and doesn't require upfront fees, qualify as a pyramid scheme? Multi-level marketing, maybe, but not a pyramid.

There are plenty of other places one can go to get biased and uncensored information about how awful Scentura is. But this should be the one place where the information is unbiased and well sourced, which it falls way short of.

Sidenote: Calendar2 seems to have a personal issue with anyone taking up Scentura's side. But he/she does make valid points about whitewashing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OregonDucks97401 (talk • contribs) 21:54, 30 November 2011 (UTC)