Talk:Scatterlings of Africa

A fact from Scatterlings of Africa appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 6 October 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the commercial success of Juluka's "Scatterlings of Africa" enabled band co-founder Johnny Clegg to leave his academic position as an anthropologist and become a full-time musician?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/October. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Scatterlings of Africa.

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 20:56, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Clegg in 2009

... that the commercial success of Juluka's "Scatterlings of Africa" enabled band co-founder Johnny Clegg (pictured) to leave his academic position as an anthropologist and become a full-time musician?

Reviewed: A Town Has Turned to Dust (Playhouse 90)

Converted from a redirect by Vanamonde93 (talk). Self-nominated at 02:01, 27 September 2020 (UTC).[reply]

A well-written article, properly sourced, no copyvios (there is a false positive on the quotation but that's it), hook is interesting and verified to the New York Times. No other concerns. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 08:36, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Copy edits

@Ceoil: I'm getting the sense you're a little cheesed off with the prose here, and since I wrote all of it, I'd rather here any critique directly that via edit-summaries, which are easy to misinterpret. I knocked this up out of nothing in a couple of hours, so I wasn't exactly trying to write deathless prose, but I didn't think it was appalling...Vanamonde (Talk) 04:40, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your point being? Ceoil (talk) 04:43, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm asking what about the article you think made it unfit even for DYK, where basic grammar and complete sentences are pretty much the only requirement. I'm also asking if you've fixed what your issues are, or whether they're part of a larger problem with the article; if so, I'd like to fix it. Given that our last interaction didn't end badly, I was hoping we could do so amicably. Vanamonde (Talk) 04:49, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You put it up for DKY, so some editorial feedback must have been expected. I'm not inclined to go back and forth with you on every little detail before I correct, so you can either take or leave. No odds to me. Ceoil (talk) 04:55, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't challenged your edits; I'm actively asking you for more feedback; why are you being grouchy with me? Vanamonde (Talk) 04:58, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think we might be getting on the wrong feet here. I know you from around, and you always seem grand; maybe I took my changes as self explanatory and wasn't clear enough. Nevertheless, I've been hooked by listening to versions on you tube, so now [I admit] annoying you. Ceoil (talk) 05:07, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. I've been solidly hooked too, so we have that in common...most of your edits were self-explanatory. There were a couple that weren't, and a couple of summaries that made me wonder if you were seeing a larger problem. Your response here implies there isn't, so proceeding on that basis; a) can't find a source for "became their biggest hit" [1], though I fully believe it to be true; b) was a bit confused by this edit summary; c) possibly, but I saw references to hunger in other sources, so quoting felt sufficient; d) this was addressed in the previous paragraph, so if that's insufficient, confused as to why. Those strike me as reasonable questions, but you're not seeing some major issue with the article and don't have the time to deal with the quibbles, I will not be offended if you ignore me. Vanamonde (Talk) 05:24, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ok but bear in mind I ws trying to resolve via direct editing [and yes edit summaries], so these are WIP observations rather than demands.

The lead is unsatisfactory and too short (first released as an album track or single)
Juluka frequently had trouble with the police, and their songs were banned by state-run radio stations, but their brand of Afro-pop nonetheless became popular. - expand on "had trouble with the police" if there are sources
Attribute the quote "the hungry, the searching, all trying to make a better South Africa"
also present in other compositions by Clegg - mention Clegg in the lead - connection between both bands, and make clear if he is the song or music writer or both
musical elements that reflect the themes of the lyrics - vague...what elements
The song's introduction is played in a regular 4/4 meter -the song opens with....all 4/4 beats are regular
The song ~~also~~ switches between
reflects its rejection - alliteration
identity and social life - would pitch more towards social position than "life"####
It thereby suggests that if this is not part of a quote, maybe loose - "thereby"
The more I read the more I like about the song. 05:46, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Reasonable; logging off now, I'll get to these tomorrow, but feel free to continue doing anything you wished to. Vanamonde (Talk) 06:21, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Talk in the morning. Ceoil (talk) 06:48, 18 October 2020 (UT)

Have implement most of these Vanamonde93, with apologies for getting you dragged into a seeming blame game, wasn't my intention; the article caught my eye from one of your comments on an FAC, from where I followed a youtube link, which I then looped on my play list. Then the tune stuck in my head, in a good way. So I owe you that. Ceoil (talk) 12:14, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think between us we've covered most of your points; there's not much detail about police trouble in these sources, and using a bunch of others seems to me to slip into undue weight territory. Let me know if there's anything else. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:25, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yah, lessons learnt. Its a pity it got through DYK in that state, but mostly fixed now. Ceoil (talk) 17:11, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

this analysis relies a lot on a single source

I have no experience editing wikipedia and I refuse the Be Bold advice every time it is given, so forgive me if I am wrong here, but I think this is leaning too heavily on Tim Taylor's analysis. I've read his book for an undergraduate class. It's from the mid 90s and is full of idiosyncrasies to the point that, when I saw the analysis on this page saying, for example "7/4 robs the listener of a clear sense of downbeat "(?????) I recognized it as Taylor's writing. The analysis in the original book is brief and I don't know of one that is more recent and does less... making things up about the music. I'm tempted to suggest that removing the analysis would be a better idea, even though the superficial parts about key and meter are correct.

This textbook is from 1997. That is one of the issues with it. It has aged rather badly because it comes across as a white man (Taylor) performing superficial cultural tourism, though I believe he's quite experienced in some of the things he wrote about.

I'm trying to work out why your citation is the way it is. The title is not quite right, the year is extremely far off, and the ISBN doesn't seem to exist on Amazon. It's unclear to me how you managed this. Even if the book was reprinted and the ISBN is somehow wrong, the information is from 978-0415918725 Global Pop: World Music, World Markets, 1997. I'm sure of this because everyone else on Earth would analyze the switch from minor to major as an ordinary songwriting tactic and not a political statement. My understanding is that Taylor's expertise and experience lie mostly in Celtic music. 76.115.208.115 (talk) 10:42, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is always nice to be able to cite multiple sources, doubly so when art criticism is concerned. I cannot agree that this relies too heavily on one source, however - Taylor is cited only four times, and if I recall correctly from the time I wrote it, largely for content not present in other sources. If you have other sources that discuss the rhythm and music, I would be glad to incorporate them. It's worth noting that Celtic music had a notable influence on Clegg and Savuka, and expertise with it isn't out of place in analyzing their music. Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:34, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]