Talk:Sauna/Archive 1

Archive 1

Sauna as English language euphemism for brothel

"Some adult-only saunas have different rules; the term "sauna" is also used for a bath-house, sometimes with facilities like a standard sauna, but where people go to find sexual partners and have sex on the premises. Some such saunas rent small rooms for this purpose. " Do we have any examples where this happens? I am reliably informed this does not happen in Finland and that saunas there are near-sacred and more traditional than the above implies. /Mat 23:17, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sauna is a euphamism for brothel in most parts of the UK. Of course, you get suanas in gyms and leisure centres that are not, but Saunas on streets are brothels. Secretlondon 23:20, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'd like to add that saunas in general are places for relaxing, very often in the early evenings at weekends.. and first and foremost a whole family event! No dirty business going on - No comment on couples. -Suz, a Finn —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.186.194.218 (talk • contribs) 15:24, March 16, 2004

Great, I think we have the euphamistic usages cleared up. --/Mat 00:53, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I heard about "Sauna clubs" for sex before, though. There was even a court ruling in Sweden to prohibit them.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.112.113.92 (talk • contribs) 07:02, March 3, 2005

The article states that engaging in sexual activities is impractical at 100 degrees. As the temperature is around 40 on the lower benches, this is not quite correct. That is, however, not the point. In a mixed-gender nude relaxation environment there are rules on behavior: call it ethics. In Dutch public saunas they are (should be) strictly enforced, thereby settting themselves apart from places that confuse sauna with sex and from people that do so. Entering "Gay sauna" in Google, for example, will produce hundreds of hits in the Netherlands. And a new search engine/function openly lists public saunas among sex clubs. An outrage, to say the least. So in the Netherlands the euphemistic use is still on, I'm afraid. May I suggest that the line on practicality in the article be replaced by one on ethics? --Sander1453--81.205.148.151 10:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

But when "sauna" is used euphemistically as a front for a brothel or "bathhouse", does it actually involve sex in a hot sauna, or any sauna, properly defined, for that matter? I don't have any personal knowledge, but I tend to doubt it. Langrel 14:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Mythical importance of Sauna for the survival of the Finns

Sauna also played a major role during the winter war against U.S.S.R in 1939. When the temperature could easily drop below -20 celsius, the sauna became very useful since it prevented effectively the spread of common diseases among the soldiers and had emotional effects. When considering reasons how Finns managed so long in front of a superior enemy, many claim that sauna, which the Russians didn't have, was the key to remain independency.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.243.187.21 (talk • contribs) 06:01, June 26, 2004

This is right. A notion of how Finns feel the Sauna culture having contributed to our survival through history, including how Finns may regard themselves as superior to neighbouring peoples considered dirty and susceptible for parasites and diseases would however need to be worded carefully in order to reach the encyclopedical standard we strive for. /Tuomas 12:08, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sauna in Finnish military installments is a interesting topic also in general. It is told that when Finnish peacekeepers arrive on their mission, they first build a sauna while living on tents, and only when finished start building barracks. Also as far as I know, there is a sauna in every military garrison in Finland. Accommodation in garrisons is usually very modest, and the existence of saunas in those places very well describes the Finnish attitude that sauna is a necessity, not a luxury. Garrison saunas are perhaps the largest saunas in regular use, sized so that it is possible for a whole company or battery of soldiers to take bath in one or two turns. Exercise areas have smaller saunas (squad or platoon size), offering a refreshing break during hard combat exercises. Soldiers taking care of saunas are often called "saunamajuri" in finnish military slang, that is "sauna major"; they are usually conscripts, but calling them "major" is a sign of just how important finns keep sauna. Whereas on civilian side it is sometimes said that there are no gender in sauna, in military it is said that there are no rank in sauna; taking off clothes, insignia of rank is also taken off. Finnish peacekeepers in Kosovo built a sauna from two local trucks - /TN 18:38, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Finnish sauna?!

I find it odd that there should be two seperate articles for sauna and Finnish sauna, as "sauna" is in and of itself a solely Finnish word and institution. Turkish or Roman baths are not saunas and should not get a mention so early in the article but perhaps a link at the end. "Sauna" is derived from the Finnish word "savuna" (roughly: "in a state of smoke") and the Russian and Swedish versions are imports from Finland. I think this article needs to be seriously rethought and have its center of focus changed drastically. Too much attention is paid to foreign (non-Finnish) attitudes towards sauna than the history of sauna itself. I'll be prepared to handle this huge task granted there are no objections.--[[User:HamYoyo|HamYoyo|TALK]] 20:40, Jun 29, 2004 (UTC)

No objections. Quite the contrary! Please do!/Tuomas 15:02, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

No objections, please go for it. How about making Finnish sauna detail the origins and history and Finn-specific parts, and sauna would be the general worldwide term with a link like see Finnish sauna for detailed history? I know the sauna originated in Finland, but I do think that the sauna article itself should exist in roughly its present form (ie worldwide applicability). Mat-C 23:06, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Alright, I'll get working on Finnish sauna. I'll add a disambiguating heading of some sort to sauna when I'm done.--[[User:HamYoyo|HamYoyo|TALK]] 13:35, Jul 4, 2004 (UTC)

Damn! I should have checked this discussion page first, before I added a large section on Finnish Sauna Customs to the page. I was planning to edit the other sections and move the relevant information there. I have now left my additions there with hardly any editing on the rest of article. I have no objections if somebody wants to do some drastic editing. I will probably do something myself in a week or two if there are no objections. Perhaps Finnish sauna should only be a redirect to sauna. The idea about removing Turkish steam bath material is good. --Chino 15:33, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree that this article needs a change of focus, but it's not just a case of whether it merges with Finnish. Where does this article fit in with the rest of the Bathing category? The opening suggests that any sweat/heat bathing facility is considered as a sauna, yet the majority of the article focuses on Finnish-style saunas.

As I see it, the Sauna article presently has content for potentially three articles:

• Details of Finnish Sauna (history, usage, terminology)
• Varieties of sweat/heat baths throughout history of world (largely a list page with place and date of origin - ie the 'thermae'/'sweat lodge' bit)
• Varieties of Sauna usage throughout the world (which would repeat the modern usage parts of the Finnish Sauna article)

There appears consensus on removing the other varieties out of this article. There exists a Finnish Sauna article. Logically then, sauna *should* be about the worldwide varieties of sauna usage - as effectively people worldwide think of different things when they think "sauna", but "Finnish sauna" can only mean Finnish sauna. I appreciate that the word is Finnish but it's not my fault that the world has attributed different meanings.

So I suggest the bulk of Finnish detail be moved to Finnish sauna, a sweat bathing article be created, and a newly focused Sauna article begins with the (italicised?) sentences "The original sauna is the Finnish sauna. The word sauna is now commonly used to mean many types of sweat bathing facility, some of which predate the Finnish version. This article details the modern global use of the Finnish-style sauna."

Alternatively, if merging with Finnish sauna is desirable, then sauna becomes a long article with the Finnish information as the first section and subsequent sections noting variations from the Finnish. We still spin out the Other Types Of Hot Room article, and kick Sauna off with "The word sauna is now commonly used to mean many types of sweat bathing facility. This article details the Finnish version and modern global usage."

Thoughts? -PaulGregory 13:23, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the word "sauna" is derived of a finnish root is not more and not less than an ethymological fact. All notions that the English word "sauna" denotes should be included, additionally facts about ethymology, history and internationally different notions of "sauna". If "sauna" has a more general meaning than the Finnish counterpart; and if "finnish sauna" has a more limited meaning, possibly more like the original,- so be it. -- Unknown user, 16 January 2006 This comment has been moved to better fit the chronology of the comments; it had been inserted between the first comment and the various agreements.

I think this makes sense. To an extent it would be like me complaining about the term "British English" meaning the English variant of English. I think there are more voices in favour of clarifying the two sauna pages than for actually merging them. I am therefore calling off the merger, as it has not happened in 18 months, and I intend to edit the two pages to make the distinction clearer and avoid overlap. PaulGregory 16:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

The bulk of this is now complete. By and large Finnish sauna is the tradition and sauna is the modern. Although the stuff about Roman baths is still in the article, they have been demoted. There is still further work to be done on this article; I concede that sauna should have more scientific citations. There is ambiguity as to which nation's variety of sauna any given statement is talking about and there are many contradictory statements remaining. I'd also like to group together the general nudity references which litter the article. PaulGregory 16:57, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Finnish dress code

"In sauna it is a faux pas to wear clothing in the hot room. [...] In public saunas one also sees signs prohibiting the wear of swimming suits in the hot room." According to some other sources on the web, nudity in the Finnish sauna is merely the norm and not a rule. Who is right? Moreover, in hotels/hostels that take many guests from abroad, I can imagine chaos ensuing between people who have different conceptions (or none at all) of sauna dress code. -- Smjg 19:08, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Both. In Finland and Scandinavia, a towel (or for women, maybe two towels) is what you use to hide your nudity, if there is a need for that. I guess that hotels and hostels typically have more than one sauna, or other arrangements to avoid mixed-sex bathing, so there would be no problem, I think (being from a family that due to WWII was dispersed from Karelia I've relatives to visit in any town I could think of to go to, so I've never been a guest to a hotel in Finland). But foreign guests usually seem to follow the rule, When in Rome, do as the Romans; and Finns who receive guests from abroad to their homes know that customs connected to nudity are somewhat different on the European continent, and try not to make the guests feel uncomfortable. Sauna and chaos doesn't fit together. Chaos is to be avoided. :-) /Tuomas 23:19, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I live in Finland and here in sauna everybody is naked. But in public saunas there are usually mens sauna and womens sauna but still everybodys naked (sorry for my bad english) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.81.107 (talk) 12:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Clarification

"Loud conversation is not usual as the sauna is seen as a place of healing rather than socialising." So which one is it? Is it mainly a social or healing place? a thing 08:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Both. When you go to the sauna after a hard day at work, you go to relax on your own. You don't stay so long, maybe from half to one hour and then watch some telly and go to bed. If it's Saturday, you go to sauna earlier with your family and have a nice relaxing 1-2 hours. If you are going out, you go for a quickie i.e. half an hour, and have a few drinks after, before dressing (and putting makeup on if you're a woman). If you have a party, you go to the sauna for hours together. First you start a vigorous heating up companied with lots of speaking and laughing. Then you go outside to cool down: you have a quick swim amd sit down to have some beer and a wild chat. When you start to feel chilly, you go back to the sauna. Now, the talk normally calms down and you enjoy the heat companied with the occational conversation. Then you start the beating with the branch and throwing lots of water on kiuas. After this you run to the lake while screaming and laughing. Then you sit outside again and drink more beer. After going in for the third time, normally everybody is quiet and after a while they start to compete about "who lasts the longests" (also known as "let's see what you are made of"). Wild water throwing starts and there you sit like you were glued to the bench: red from your face, curled down so the heat doesn't feel so harsh... You can't leave the room first! The poor person that gives in before the others is made fun of for the rest of the evening. It is not unusual for the temperature to rise over 100C. At some point everyone is about to faint so you all agree to leave all at the same time. Then all of you run to the lake and feel gorgeous. Happy, relaxed and furfilled. You have cleaned your soul once again.

As we Finnish think about sauna: it is the place of being reborn. Having sauna feels like you clean yourself inside out; your skin as well as your soul. There is a song that goes: "Löylyä lissää, löylyä lissää, tämä ei tunnu missää" ("More heat, more heat, I can't feel it yet") and it is often referred in the sauna when you think it is not hot enough. There is also a saying that goes: "In sauna, it is not allowed to be cold" i.e. it is not enjoyable if it's less than ~70C.

So sauna is a place to relax but ALSO a place to socialize. You can do both at the same time. -Aikapoika 20:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know the thermodynamics of the sauna?

Does anyone know the thermodynamics of the sauna? I was talking with someone ( coincidentally in the sauna at the Gym ) and he was convinced that when water is poured on top of the hot rocks that the net effect on the temperature of the room is cooling. I studied a little Thermodynamics in my time and doubted that idea. We discussed something to the extent of The water hits the rocks and is immediately boiled and turned to steam which rises in the room. The steam is cooled by the surrounding air. Conversely this means that the air is heated. His argument was something that the water coming off of the rocks was less than boiling temperature and is actually less than the temperature of the room which in some cases could be 190 degrees. He also pointed out that dry heat feels much cooler than wet heat. He felt that the steam actually cooled the room but temerarily felt hotter because of the increase in humidity. What is the temperature of the rocks in a sauna? I doubt this. So unless someone can tell me differently here is the thermodynamics as I understand it:

• 1) Any temp water is poured on hot rocks.
• 2) The heat from the hot rocks transfers to the water and boils it. Steam is released and the temp of the steam should be about 212 degrees.
• 3) The steam rises and mixes with the air in the rest of the sauna the steam cools ( conversely the air heats )

Net effect is a signifigantly hotter sauna. In theory this could be calculated by taking the initial temperature of the room, the volume of the room, the amount of water poured over the rocks ( must be less than the amount to cause water to drip out of the heating system ). However I am not sure of the formula to calculate that. -Tommac2 10:39, August 16, 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of the effect of pouring water on the rocks on the true air temperature inside the sauna, the effect on the apparent air temperature (that temperature felt by the users) will be to raise it. The body will work harder to cool itself at a given temperature in a more humid environment. Thus, as the water is vaporized and the humidity rises, the sauna "feels" much hotter regardless of whether it is heated or cooled a few degrees by the addition of the hot water vapor. Eljefe3126 20:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)eljefe3126

If you throw alot of water on the rocks the temerature sinks but if you throw little at a time it will raise very quickly. --DerMeister 16:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. During and after löyly sessions in our main cabine (in our saunacompany), when lots of water or even crushed ice is poured over the rocks, a fall of several degrees can be observed on the control panel. Sander1453--81.205.148.151 09:18, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

From Thermodynamics point of view: When humidity is low - say 5% - the sweat from body surface evaporates and takes a lot of heat (latent evaporation heat) from your body, even if air temperature is very high - 90deg Celsius. When you pour the water over hot stones, the humidity rises to - for instance 25%. The dew point of steam at 25% at 90deg C is 57deg C, which is much higher than body skin surface. That means that suddenly condensation takes place on skin, from which you receive a lot of heat (latent condensation heat). It can explain why you feel such burning sensation during löyly, as skin goes from losing heat to receiving heat in seconds. (Skin actually receives the heat from the dry air portion all the time, but I only speak of heat from steam, which adds to heat from dry air - as negative heat at 5% and positive heat at 25%...) Air temperature is also possible to go in any direction, depends on details. Water takes heat from stones (boiling heat from 20deg C to 100deg C plus latent evaporation heat) and if temperature of air is lower than 100deg C it rises it - for a moment. In the next moment that steam (which has higher partial pressure than outside air) escapes from the cabin without condensing (= returning the latent evaporation heat) which means the heat escapes out and thus lowers the temperature of the whole system. But a big furnace can also cover that heat loss very quickly, so it is not necessary the thermometer will actualy show any temperature change. ---- ROK

The Inventor of the Steam bath, and it's Approximate Length

"Mel Freisen, who now resides in Swift Current, Saskatchewan, Canada. Most of his childhood was spent moving from city to city, because of his father's job. The ideal steam bath was rumored to be around 40 minutes in length. However, this has not been tested." What is this supposed to mean? BKfi, 2 November 2006

Etymology

Doesn't sauna come from savuna/*sawna, which meant in/on/at smoke? -85.156.135.244 17:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a folk etymology. The word originates from proto-Finnish (*sawńa). Now, the palatalized *-ńa should not be an essive case indicator, like modern Finnish -na is. Also, the modern essive has a meaning that is rather difficult: "as smoke". Furthermore, the probable original meaning ("a pit dug into snow") has little to do with "smoke". It's true that *saw- could be the proto-Finnish root for "smoke", and if *-ńa is a locative case, then the "smoke" etymology could work. --Vuo 17:56, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, sauna comes from early Proto-Finnic *sakńa, the -k- can be seen in Karelian dialectal soakna as well as South Estonian sann (with -nn- < *-kn-). This word has no etymological connection to savu 'smoke'. --AAikio 09:55, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Brain damage?

How does one avoid getting hyperthermia and brain damage? Yeah, you sweat but the evaporation is countered by the fact that you're immersed in a 160 degree plus environment. -Rolypolyman 13:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

By not spending much time in the sauna. The extreme heat is a shock, not something you want to spend hours and hours in. The initial symptom of hyperthermia - nausea - deters you from spending too much time in the sauna. People usually cool off with cold showers and even going outside after visiting the sauna room. You can get hyperthermia easily, compared to sauna, from running on a hot day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vuo (talk • contribs) 08:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Read the Therapeutic sauna proceedure section in the Article Jagra 06:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)