Talk:Sassuntsi-Davit Tank Regiment

Division?

From the description it sounds to me as if it was a regiment? Andreas 09:33, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The term used in the article is "Deeveezya" which in Armenian translates to "Division". It might perhaps by a colloquialism in referring to the unit but other words used to describe a military unit in Armenian do not quite fit the definition for the S.D. Perhaps the division was also supported by shock troops and grenadiers who rode upon the tanks, judging that by the men in the picture appear to have shouldered sub-machine guns.--MarshallBagramyan 01:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I am wondering for a range of reasons.

• The text says that with 22 tanks it was at full strength. That was the strength of a Red Army Tank Regiment (with two companies of ten each and a regimental HQ).
• Tank divisions did not exist as a formation type in the Red Army after 1941. There were only regiments, brigades (60 tanks), Tank Corps (180 tanks), and tank armies (500-800 tanks).
• It could not have been a Tank Corps (which is closest to a division) because all of them were numbered, and are well known (see some of the links in the article on Tank Corps (Soviet).
• Soviet tankers were given sub-machine guns for self-defense and guard duties, so they could well be the crew of the tanks.

Andreas 05:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, the division is often referred to as a "tank corps". Tanks corps however seem to big since this unit was an ethnically homogenuous one. In the photograph, the men in the front (with the dark uniforms) ostentaneously appear to be the crew members. The ones on the flanks of the tanks are wearing thick, white winter suits which would not seem to be comfortable nor suitable in the cramped quarters of a T-34 tank. This I believe, would make them shock troops or grenadiers who would ride upon and protect the tanks from infantry attacks. Most probably a term translation error however, the word Deevezya is interchangeably used when referring to the Soviet 89th "Tamanyan" in the encylopedia also.--MarshallBagramyan 06:32, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

You are right about the uniforms - it could be that they had an assigned company of Tankodesantnikyi, and maybe after beginning as a regiment it grew into a Brigade at a later stage? Andreas 06:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Desaniki? paratroopers? Perhaps the unit began with 22 tanks and a complement of infantry grenadiers and, as they made advances through the USSR, their unit was ultimately strengthened, expanded, and as noted, became a guards unit which ultimately allowed the division to carry the Soviet flag and participate in numerous assaults (I believe they entered Berlin). --MarshallBagramyan 23:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Tank Riders. I think it may have been a case of later expansion, but not to Tank Corps strength, at most I would have thought Brigade strength. Guards was a honorific used from individual ranks upwards, so a regiment could be a Guards Tank Regiment. Andreas 08:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Further info

• from Boevoi sostav Sovetskoi armii [Combat composition of the Soviet Army] 1944 and 1945
• regiment began its wartime service as the 119th Rifle Tank (Mixed) Regiment in the 2nd Ukrainian Front in February 1944.
• The Regiment received several additional tank columns and, as a result, was reorganized into the 119th Separate Engineer Tank Regiment (with mine-clearing tanks) on 26 May 1944.
• It was assigned to the 1st Baltic Front in June 1944.
• Thanks to David Glantz for providing this data.

Buckshot06 21:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Further info from user:Mrg3105

copied from user talk page G'day Buckshot06. Do I need to tell you how many "unique" titles different units in Red Army had? There is an article on "tank columns" on RKKA site which details about 30-40 units that received sponsored vehicles, of which "David Sassansky" was one. However this name was not an official name of the unit which begun life as the 119th separate tank battalion, and later became an independent tank regiment (or separate as you call it). David Sassanky was NEVER in its honorific, but was only painted on the tanks. It started out in WW2 combat as a newly formed 119th separate battalion (1st formation) on the Leningrad Front with 4 x T-34s and 7 x T-26 in 1941 during the Tikhvin defensive operation of the Leningrad Front serving as part of the 4th Army. (http://militera.lib.ru/h/isaev_av5/06.html) of the 41st Light Tank Brigade after being reflagged from the 50th tank battalion which arrived from the North Caucasian Military District in August 1940 (there is the Armenian link). It was reformed as 2nd formation 119th tank brigade on 2 May 1942 in Gorky with two battalions and other subunits as part of the Bryansk Front. (Not to be confused with the 119th tank brigade 1st formation which was reformed in the Moscow area as the 7th Guards Heavy Lomzhinsk Order of Red Banner tank regiment) (from soldat.ru forum) In August-September 1942 it was part of the 30th Army on the Kalinin Front with 23 Valentines and 13 T-60s, which were reduced to 4 of each two months later. In October 1942 it was reformed as a regiment (1st formation) and taken out of the line in the Brynsk Front sector. In July 1943 it was a part of the 10th Guards Army until spring of 1944. (with T-34/76 1943 model tanks) In August 1943 it distinguished itself at Yelnya (conducting combat in the city; CO Col. O.A. Losik - future Marshal of Armoured Troops of Soviet Union; the reason this regiment is so well known) and received the official honorific "Yelninski" (Yelnya) along with other units of the 10th Guards Army. (This was the operation which gave birth to the Guards honorific of the Red Army) During September it was attached to the 7th Guards Corps during the Smolensk operation, conducting a successful assault-crossing of the Ustrom river to reinforce the 29th and 85th Guards divisions. By March 1944 the regiment is equipped with the T-34/85 tanks as part of the 2nd Ukrainian Front, which are repainted with Armenian script rather then the Russian of the T-34/76s (see here http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=85&Itemid=43&lang=ru) During the 60s the 119th tank regiment was equipped with heavy tanks and SP guns (IS-2/3 and ISU-152) in Germany as part of the 11th tank division, 1st Guards Tank Army (40km from Erfurt) Before the dissolution of the Soviet Union the regiment was a 119th separate Yelninsky tank battalion in the 60th Motor Rifle Division (Lenkoran) of the 4th Combined Arms Army based around Baku, and had 31 Т-72 (аlso 4 Т-55 and 12 Т-54); 13 BMP (9 BMP-1, 4 BMP-1Command), 6 BTR (1 BTR-80, 5 BTR-70); 1 R-145BM; 1 MTU-20 The regiment passed in its entirety into the Azerbaijan Army, and equipement was used during the Nagorno-Karabakh campaign against Armenia. Now you know why this regiment of all others has been selected for "notability".--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 01:00, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Um, great research work. I'd encourage you not just to leave it on your talk page, but to add it to the article. Buckshot06 (talk) 02:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Buckshot06, I don't care who adds it. You know what my project is. I have no interest in getting mired in yet another nationalistically-motivated article that has a woefully wrong title. You give it a go for a change. I have another article to translate for guy doing Operation Bagration, and this is besides the course. The only reason I picked out this regiment is because I have read Marshal Losik's biography and I was SOOOOOO surprised to read this article. No doubt I would have to get a consensus with a "room full" of Armenians on one side and Azeris on the other ;o)--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 02:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me if I don't fully understand - why did you go and look out all that history otherwise? Buckshot06 (talk) 03:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

It was not so hard to look it all up; I did it in the break of about 30 minutes. Had I said that the article is just wrong, and has a wrong article title you would have asked why and wanted sources, right? Mostly I am too busy to integrate all this into the existing article which doesn't even have significant notability as far as I'm concerned, unless one considers English speaking Armenians.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 05:13, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure we're talking about the same unit? David Glantz wrote to me that 'from Boevoi sostav Sovetskoi armii [Combat composition of the Soviet Army] 1944 and 1945

regiment began its wartime service as the 119th Rifle Tank (Mixed) Regiment in the 2nd Ukrainian Front in February 1944.

The Regiment received several additional tank columns and, as a result, was reorganized into the 119th Separate Engineer Tank Regiment (with mine-clearing tanks) on 26 May 1944.

It was assigned to the 1st Baltic Front in June 1944.

Sounds like two separate units, this 119th Tank Bn->Regt and the Sassuntsi-Davsi Rifle Tank (Mixed) Regt that became an Engr Tank Regt. Also, why is it possibly not very notable? Every cavalry regiment in the British Army has an article, why not the Red and Soviet Armies? Buckshot06 (talk) 08:47, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, same unit. It became separate engineer-tank regiment on the date David states, but wasn't with the 1st Baltic for very long from what I can gather. Its various permutations are given in Perecheny No.14, p23. You can also see the page for it here [1] in Russian, but the pictures tell the story. The name on the T-34/76 tanks in Russian, and one KMT kit with the initial issue (can just see it in the picture) which is what a tank regiment was supposed to have.

There were 181 such tank "columns" built on the collections of civilians and donations by enterprises and organisations, some consisting of only a few tanks, others outfitting entire brigades. Most had sponsor names painted on the turrets, but none were official unit names.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 10:42, 6 March 2008 (UTC)