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St Helens Canal

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I am from St.Helens and the canal is generally referred to here as either Sankey Canal or just "the canal". In fact, I don't think I've heard anyone here say "the St.Helens Canal" EVER. (Similarly, people from Runcorn don't say "Runcorn Bridge" (as most others do), just "the bridge"). However, as mentioned below, Warrington Borough Council has signs at Sankey Bridges that say "ST. HELENS CANAL". Halton Borough Council also has some information signs towards Spike Island that mention "ST. HELENS CANAL", the name which also appears on Ordnance Survey and other maps. I agree that there is a lot of anti-St.Helens bias in this discussion. The supposedly "misinformed locals" of St.Helens (which apparently is "a distant town"(!), rather than a neighbouring one) do not even say (in my experience) "St.Helens Canal". If for some reason it annoys you that people do use this (completely legitimate) name for the canal, I suggest you direct your ire towards, for one, Warrington Borough Council, who apparently like the name "ST. HELENS CANAL" so much that they even put it on signs next to the canal :). But please don't pollute Wikipedia with your biased, misinformed information.

St Helens Canal

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I've removed "but only in St.Helens (the rest of the canal, away from St.Helens, has always been the Sankey Canal)" pending sources being cited. I have never lived in St Helens or elsewhere locally, and have often heard it refered to as the St Helens Canal. British Waterways refer to "St Helens Canal (Sankey Canal)". I've also removed the reference to "mainly by misinformed locals", as again no sources are cited, and this has the ring of a local quarrel which has no place here. StephenDawson 11:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Look here Stephen .... http://www.warrington.gov.uk/images/sankey_winwick_history_trail_tcm15-5312.pdf 80.192.242.187 16:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC) JemmyH[reply]

The Sankey Navigation (canal) was opened in 1757. It did not go to St.Helens. It went to a part of the Lancashire Coalfield which was being productively mined by a company called Richard Evans. St.Helens was only linked to the canal some eighteen years later by the St.Helens section. This section is the St,Helens canal. I don't know, but maybe, the residents of the Warrington areas of Sankey, Great Sankey etc. refer to the Sankey Canal as that is it's historic title and St.Helens, to them, is just a distant town. Probably? (this unsigned comment was added by 80.192.242.187.

Ordnance Survey Explorer Map 275 calls it "St Helens Canal" all the way to Sankey Bridges; it does not contain the name "Sankey Canal" at all. Local knowledge and personal research have no place in Wikipedia; only published sources. Can we find a published indication that the official name, if there is one, of any stretch is in fact "Sankey Canal"? 24.22.172.60 04:51, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm wrong; "Sankey Canal" does appear on some stretches in the OS. From St Helens to the disused mine shafts near Ashton's Green it is called "St Helens Canal (dis)"; then "Sankey Brook" as far as the Sankey rail viaduct, and little further; then "Sankey Canal (dis)" from about the Mucky Mountain Nature Reserve down to about Red House Farm; then "Sankey Brook" again as far as the section that curves around Callands, where the current watercourse takes the name "Dallam Brook". The canal bed appears to be dry here, and unnamed, through Sankey Valley Park; then there is a parallel section of (still unnamed) canal alongside "Sankey Brook" again from Bewsey to Sankey Bridges, where it is called "St Helens Canal (dis)" again. So, according to the VERIFIABLE and CITEABLE OS maps, which are available online, it is called "St Helens Canal" at both ends, in St. Helens and where it joins the Mersey, and "Sankey Canal" in the middle section in Great Sankey. 24.22.172.60 05:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a couple of links for you to look at. One is by Warrington Borough Council. Both refer to Sankey Canal. Neither refer to St.Helens canal.

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?txtkeys1=Sankey

http://www.warrington.gov.uk/images/sankey_winwick_history_trail_tcm15-5312.pdf

Warrington Borough Council has signs along the canal near Sankey Bridges which say "St.Helens Canal" (no mention of Sankey). These signs have been there for years. The same stretch is called St.Helens Canal on Ordnance Survey maps, on Google maps and on any other map I've looked it. To say that "Sankey Canal" is the official/proper name for the canal as a whole is simply untrue. It seems this article has attracted contributors (or perhaps one in particular) with a heavy anti-St.Helens bias. There's nothing unusual about the canal not having an "official" name or it being known by more than one name. Let's stick to the facts.

Sankey Canal

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Just to let anyone know, who may be interested, that I have driven past the 'St.Helens Branch' of the Sankey Canal, tonight, and have seen a large sign, recently sited, which says, in block capitals, ............ 'SANKEY CANAL'. It looks to have been put there by ......... 'British Waterways'. The name 'St.Helens Canal' is purely a truism. Wikipedia should be containing fact, the OFFICIAL name is 'Sankey Canal'. 80.192.242.187 23:36, 16 January 2007 (UTC) JimmyH.[reply]

I don't think "truism" means what you think it does, and its use in this article is incorrect and sort of illiterate. 24.22.172.60 04:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

YOU are the 'illiterate' one, thinking YOU are an authority on something you know nothing about. The canal has signs along it's route saying 'The Sankey Canal', placed there by British Waterways. It is on record starting as the 'Sankey Navigation', changing to it's 'true' title of Canal when it was discovered that it wasn't a 'navigation' at all, but a 'true canal'. It is OFFICIALLY called the Sankey Canal. St.Helens canal is an 'unofficial' name, relating to the St.Helens Section, used only by those who know no better. Now then, 'Truism', as I thought, was something that had 'become' true, over a period of time, due to constant use. The same meaning seems to be thought by Regan123 (maybe he's illiterate too), as he has used it to describe the Wigan claims of 'Marks and Spencer, founded in Wigan' and the 'Worlds Biggest Steam Engine is in Wigan', both of which are believed by Wigan people to be true and are promoted as such by Wigan Council's 'History Shop'. Both are false, but are 'believed' to be true by constant useage and publicity, so have become a 'Truism'. But, of course, I might be wrong, I sometimes am!? I'll look it up. Thanks for pointing out my illiteracy, it is appreciated as I can now do something about it. 80.192.242.187 13:00, 30 January 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.[reply]

Please don't take this as a personal attack. But Wikipedia has rules. One of these rules is that everything in Wikipedia has to be VERIFIABLE by reference to an outside source. It is more important to be verifiable than it is to be correct. Thus, the fact of what this canal is called is a matter of record. I have given verifiable references for my information: the OS maps. You may choose to disregard the Ordnance Survey as a body that "knows no better", but only if you have some reference that says otherwise. A sign is not a reference. If you have a document produced by British Waterways, feel free to produce it and use it as a source.
As for your use of the word "truism", my problem is that you stuck it in parentheses in the middle of a paragraph, which is not literate English usage. If there is something about this canal that you believe (with references of course) is not true but is commonly believed to be so, you need to find a better way to express it in English. \ Fnarf999 \ talk \ contribs \ 06:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

TRUISM

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.... Often the word (truism) is used to disguise the fact that a proposition is really just a 'half-truth or an opinion', an 'axiom', especially in 'rhetoric'. 'Axiom: .. Unlike theorems, axioms are neither derived by principles of deduction, nor are they 'demonstrable by formal proofs'. Instead, an axiom is 'taken for granted as valid', as an 'assumption'. Rhetoric: ... the art or technique of persuasion through the use of oral language.

Taking this into consideration, the name 'St.Helens Canal' is 'taken for granted as valid', but is not 'demonstrable by formal proofs', as it is 'formally' named the 'Sankey Canal'. The name 'St.Helens Canal' is, clearly, a 'half-truth or an opinion' formulated by 'rhetoric' over a period of time. So, I conclude that to call the 'Sankey Canal' the 'St.Helens Canal' is a 'Truism'. And that's true that is! Yours Illiterately, 80.192.242.187 21:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.[reply]

Find a way to express this in grammatically correct English, please. Don't just stick the word "truism" in parentheses. Similarly, your other parenthetical comments do not belong in Wikipedia articles. I refer to "here we go again". This is not encyclopedic content; it is commentary. Commentary has no place here. \ Fnarf999 \ talk \ contribs \ 06:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose 'false information' and 'local rumour' HAS a place in THIS encyclopaedia, then?

No. Verifiable information does. Please supply some for your assertions. YOU are the one supplying local information without verification. And not signing your comments. \ Fnarf999 \ talk \ contribs \ 16:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Links which refer to the Sankey Canal using it's 'correct' and 'official' title .....

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?txtkeys1=Sankey

http://www.warrington.gov.uk/images/sankey_winwick_history_trail_tcm15-5312.pdf

80.192.242.187 16:46, 15 February 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.[reply]


This is better; thank you JemmyH. Some tips to help you edit better in the future: to start a new section in a talk page that is automatically formatted correctly, click the tab at the top of the document (as here, just above the title, "Talk: Sankey Canal" that has a small plus sign on it. That way you can easily separate out new discussion which makes it easier to follow what's going on. Second tip: when you're replying to someone, start a new paragraph, and begin it with a colon, or as many colons as necessary, which will indent your paragraphs and make it easier to see that you are replying. You need to repeat the colons at each paragraph.
Now, as for these links. They're good links, and would make a welcome addition to the See also or References sections of some article. But they don't prove anything. The question isn't "is there any such thing as the Sankey Canal?" That's obvious, and in fact the name of this article is "Sankey Canal". No one, but NO ONE, has disputed that the original canal, and the current remaining remnants in and around Great Sankey, were and are called the "Sankey Canal". The question is, does anyone call any other sections of the canal "St Helens Canal", and is this an appropriate usage? It is pretty obvious that the answer to this question in everyone's mind but yours is "yes".
If you think about the function of an encyclopedia, it is intended as a reference for people who are looking things up -- not you, but someone who DOESN'T KNOW. That person is quite likely going to search for "st helens canal" -- which is why that search redirects to this article. It is also called, IN PLACES, "St Helens Canal" on a large variety of documents both official and not. This may be because the St Helens portions of the canal are more likely to still be in water and not filled in, as much of the Great Sankey section is; I wouldn't know. But I do know that it is EXTREMELY CLEAR that "St Helens Canal" is one of the names for the thing.
I'm not sure exactly what you're ultimately asking for here. If you want all mentions of "St Helens Canal" removed from Wikipedia, that's not going to happen. If you want this article to berate people who call it that, and tell them that they are wrong, that's not going to happen either. The article can, if necessary, have a mention of the different names at different times for different sections, that's OK, and that's pretty much what we have now.
Your energies would be much better directed at adding knowledge and content to this article rather than fighting with people over it. Does that make sense? \ Fnarf999 \ talk \ contribs \ 17:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]


  • This is what you said, above ..... 'It is pretty obvious that the answer to this question in everyone's mind but yours is "yes".'

Fnarf999, you are totally wrong there. I have said this ... The section of Canal from St.Helens, joining onto the Sankey Canal, was constructed some eighteen years AFTER the Sankey Canal started operating. That section of canal IS called the St.Helens canal (because it's in St.Helens). The St.Helens Canal JOINS the Sankey Canal (called that because it runs along the Sankey Valley, alongside the Sankey Brook). The St.Helens section was an 'addition', constructed for the benefit of St.Helens which was a growing town, and was connected to an existing canal system.

I have also provided viable links to the Sankey Viaduct articles discussion page. That article gives it's wrong location. When I provide the correct information , it is immediately removed.

Please make up your mind whether you want me to provide viable links to my contributions, or not. When I provide a viable link, please do not remove it. 80.192.242.187 20:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.[reply]

I guess I don't understand what it is you want. The article already says it was built as the Sankey Canal, and that sections were added to it later. If you're suggesting they are separate and unrelated bodies of water (or former water in some cases), I can't buy that. It's one canal, originally the Sankey Canal, later added on to St Helens, now widely referred to as the St Helens canal AND the Sankey Canal. What's the problem? \ Fnarf999 \ talk \ contribs \ 00:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's the Sankey Canal, though you likely wont find many in St. Helens referring to anything on our side of the Earlestown border as being 'Sankey'. The majority of the canal falls in the Sankey Valley, but the majority of people in the local area will refer to the area within St. Helens as "The flash". The St. Helens canal is an entirely different beast, and I'd be surprised to hear anyone refer to "The flash" as such.--Koncorde (talk) 20:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't actually figure out if your point is the same as what I'm going to say or the total opposite because of the way that you've worded it. The Flash just refers to the area north of Parr & includes the Sankey Brook which is a totally different entity which I think may be your point but I'm not entirely sure. In fact most people in the majority of the town would wrongly refer to the Canal as The Hotties (the town centre stretch that is heated by the water used to cool down factories - that's to the Warringtoner's just to fill them let them know!) rather than The Flash. Both are wrong but to say the majority of the town would call it The Flash over any other name is just daft. I'd never even heard of The Flash until I met my good friend from Parr a few years back & even now most people from the west, north & south of the town get confused when I mention "The Flash" to them. Personally I've always known it as either the Sankey canal or the St Helens Canal so I can see the case for both names but "The Flash" & "The Hotties" are just specific stretches. (RC4282) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.195.90.92 (talk) 02:02, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Much belated reply. I was referring to colloquial use. "The Flash" is what most people, if they even know the brook / canal exists, would refer to the stretch running into Parr / Blackbrook with little differentiation. The part that turns east then runs south to Sutton is generally known as Stinky Brook. The Hotties are the Hotties. Generally speaking we don't reference "St Helens Canal" in any major sense, which has meant since the 60's the usages have become more regional and it has functionally reverted back to Sankey Canal. This is obviously distinct to the argument about whether we should reference it as "St Helens Canal" (which we should due to historic documentation) as at least a passing name for a long period of its operation. Koncorde (talk) 23:28, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, just to add to my article, JemmyH I can't find any definate law on the name, Sankey Canal or St Helens Canal. You have showed links stating that Warrington Council, etc call it "it's offical name" but I can show links from the other side of the argument

http://www.waterscape.com/canals-and-rivers/st-helens-canal-sankey-canal

http://www.discoverthemerseyforest.co.uk/Route.aspx?region=2&cat=Walking&refnum=MF070 (RC4282) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.195.90.92 (talk) 02:17, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Viaduct Details

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I have edited and reworded the 'viaduct details' in the 'structures' section, included changes as follows:

  • Added a link to the the main Viaduct article in the body of the text not just the photo caption.
  • Corrected "Seven Arches" to "Nine Arches" which is both what it is known as, and the number arches it has.
  • Corrected the construction/completion date to 1980 as this was previously erroneous.
  • Removed reference to there being 7 arches and one "iron-girder, which spans over the canal itself"
  • Reworked the section which states "not sufficient to allow the masts of the Mersey flats to clear" to state it has 60ft minimum clearance.
  • Removed reference to "recesses in the masonry which suggests that originally a drawbridge mechanism to raise the rail-bed"

I can only assume this un-referenced section is the work of fiction, and or, another structure which as been confused.

dhutch (talk) 09:58, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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St Helens Canal - 2021

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From what I can tell there is a single recurring IP user (Jemmy H) with their own POV push. If this is indeed the same user they are asked to cease perpetuating misinformation and utilise reliable sources not their opinion. [1], [2],[3],[4],[5],[6] Koncorde (talk) 23:19, 12 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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