Talk:Sancho Ramírez

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Move protection

Yorkshirian, you moved the page, and that's fine. But you were reverted, so the next stage is taking this to WP:RM. I've move protected this page indefinitely to prevent further warring.Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 05:41, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK. On all of the other language Wikipedias (Spanish, Germany, French, Italian and so on), he has the name Sancho Ramírez of Aragon. It just seems odd and non-uniform, to have one monarch just randomly without the realm he ruled after his name. - Yorkshirian (talk) 05:51, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The significant realm he ruled was Navarre, he also held a little pocket kingdom, or whatever you want to call it, of Aragon. To just call him Sancho Ramirez of Aragon would be like naming a page George I of Hanover, and ignoring the fact that he ruled England. Agricolae (talk) 12:18, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pocket Kingdom? Definitively, was a Kingdom since his travel to Rome. And Sancho Ramirez called also himself "son of King", then, was a royal dinasty. Escarlati (talk) 03:12, 21 November 2009 (UTC) P. D. Source: John Beeler (1973). Warfare in feudal Europe, 730-1200. Cornell University Press, p. 174. ISBN 9780801491207. Escarlati (talk) 03:19, 21 November 2009 (UTC) More dates: Ramiro I of Aragon was his father. Escarlati (talk) 03:27, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That is one POV. Ubieto Arteta had a different one, documenting that even though he called his father king, he didn't call himself king of Aragon until he became king of Navarre. Still, that is beside the point. In terms of land, population, historical tradition and mindset, Navarre was his major kingdom, and Aragon a minor one. Thus to call him 'Sancho Ramirez of Aragon' ignores the elephant in the room, and is unacceptable. Had the rename been to 'Sancho Ramirez of Navarre and Aragon', or 'Sancho Ramirez of Aragon and Navarre', then I could accept it (although it still should be discussed first to decide which). Agricolae (talk) 04:28, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I understand, but only is King of Pamplona (never Navarra in this moment) after 1076. Sancho Ramirez of Aragon is his name before the adquisition of King of Pamplona, since 1068, and because is the song of Ramiro I of Aragon. I think that is not a question of two povs. Escarlati (talk) 12:58, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

English-language authors usually use 'Navarre' as the name of the kingdom, even as far back as Arista (and rightly or wrongly, in English Wikipedia English usage governs). As to which he was first, look at James I of England: he was James VI of Scotland, son of Queen Mary of Scotland, long before he acquired the larger domain. Naming conventions call for the most important one to take take precedence, and in spite of what it would become, at the time this was not Aragon - there is a reason SR took the title and had himself crowned, rather than just absorbing the land as his father had done with Gonzalo's or as Alfonso did on the other side. Just for the sake of consistency, Navarre should be included (e.g. Peter I of Aragon and Navarre), so if SR's page is to be named based on any kingdom(s), Navarre should at a minimum be included. Agricolae (talk) 17:38, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]