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NPOV

[edit]

"At the finish of Men's team sprint Germany's anchor Tim Tscharnke clashed with Jauhojärvi's skis in the last leg, as Jauhojärvi abruptly changed his line, which is strictly prohibited by the rules. Tscharnke fell and his skis hit the Russia's Nikita Kriukov. This allowed Jauhojärvi to finish first." - We cannot portray the views of one side as fact. Claims must be attributed. --NeilN talk to me 04:54, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

At last! We're not "portraying the views of one side". We're stating the fact. I have to admit I was quite angry at first and my initial edit was far from neutral. But since then I've changed it to ONLY reflect the facts. If there is a different opinion from proper sources, go ahead and add it. Le Grand Bleu (talk) 06:20, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As a matter of fact this statement doesn't even need to be sourced - all you have to do is watch the finish of the race. The Finn changes lanes, the German falls, the Russian wobbles, the Finn finishes first. Germany protested, the protest was dismissed. What's NPOV about all this? Le Grand Bleu (talk) 06:23, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That's your interpretation. What's Jauhojärvi's? We're not accepting a competitor's view as fact. --NeilN talk to me 06:27, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't care about his interpretation. And the one above isn't mine. Like I said, it's just facts. You chose to continue the war and I refuse to discuss anything with a vandal. Good luck. Let the admins decide. Le Grand Bleu (talk) 06:45, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We have to care about his interpretation. That's what NPOV is about. Find a neutral source (non-German, non-Finnish, non-Russian) that describes what happened so we can get a neutral and sourced viewpoint. Although we shouldn't let the incident overwhelm the biography (it's already mentioned). --NeilN talk to me 07:50, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Reuters is a neutral source: "Germany's Tim Tscharnke hit the ground after bumping into Sami Jauhojaervi. The Finn, who was ahead, changed his line just before the final sprint." [1]
"In the last lap sprint specialist Nikita Kriukov (RUS) fighted against loosing the contact while Tim Tscharnke was in the lead of his way downhill into the stadium. In the hairpin turn the Thuringia took the outer line, Sami Jauhojärvi overtook on the inside and cut Tscharnke's way with heavily touching the German's ski. That made Tscharnke fall and he nearly brought about Kriukov's downfall. Indeed the Russian was able to avoid a fall he lost his speed and wasn't able to catch the Finn." [2]
"Yelena Välbe, president of the Russian Ski Federation, told reporters: "Finland should be disqualified but the protest has already been rejected"." [3] --IIIraute (talk) 23:59, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Le Grand Bleu. An own section for this "controversy" is WP:UNDUE. The mention in the lede is good enough. More prose belong in the article on the competition itself, provided it's NPOV. It could possibly also be placed in a section of the "Controversies and concerns" article.
And 1) don't accuse other people of edit-warring. Check the article history, and you'll see who's actually calling the kettle black. If anyone is "choosing to continue the war", it's you. 2) Don't label other editors as vandals when they aren't, that's a personal attack (see WP:NPA). Other recommended reading that you might have missed is WP:CONSENSUS, WP:OWN and WP:BRD. Please note that there is only one "R" in BRD. That is, if someone reverts you (the first and only R), the discussion starts then. You don't revert back (a second R), and then start the discussion. Please note that, by now, several editors have reverted you, and think back on what you just read in WP:CONSENSUS. Start discussing and be a little constructive.
HandsomeFella (talk) 07:55, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
How about you try to talk about the fact in the article, NOT about ME? Ever tried to avoid ad hominem attacks in a discussion? You should! Le Grand Bleu (talk) 09:11, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me? You are the one calling people vandals, which is an ad hominem attack. The fact that I point that out is not. Ñice try. HandsomeFella (talk) 09:32, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me? Can you read? I just offered you to comment on the matter of the argument. Instead, you continue to blame me for everything. Yes, Holocaust was my fault, too. Now that we established that, can we move on? Le Grand Bleu (talk) 09:40, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So far I see no valid arguments whatsoever. Undue why? Joe DiMaggio's article says he was married to Marylin Monroe. Far from his sports achievement... well, maybe for him... I digress. Dennis Rodman's article contains information about his friendship with Kim Jong Un. Not really basketball. David Pelletier's article contains information about the 2002 Olympic controversy. Why shouldn't this article contain the fact that not everyone believes he won his medal honestly? Well, actually nobody believes that, but, as you rightly said, this is probably not the best place to discuss it. Le Grand Bleu (talk) 09:40, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Too much weight? Well, it's not my fault the Fellow Countryman Prolog didn't bother to write more about this renowned athlete. Instead of warring he could've added more information. Then this little controversy wouldn't look so big. Again, give me sibstantiation for your opinion. Are you physically able to debate fairly? Le Grand Bleu (talk) 09:40, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You accused my of an ad hominem attack. You have wrongly accused other editors for vandalism. Now you're asking me if I can read, which constitutes a personal attack. Your question if I am "physically able to debate fairly" is also a personal attack. Ño big mystery then that there are reactions. Please specify where I made a personal attack.
HandsomeFella (talk) 09:49, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sprint skiing collisions are a dime a dozen. Fan debates about The True Winner and official protests against other athletes are also commonplace, and the race jury found "nothing irregular" in this incident. Due weight applies to short stubs as much as to lengthy articles, and event information should not be POV-forked here. You're free to expand the event article, neutrally and with reliable sources. Prolog (talk) 13:29, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Did this → [4] not suit your argument, or why did you remove a comment that is backed by a Reuters source? --IIIraute (talk) 00:07, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Please read WP:BLP carefully and note that it applies on all pages. --NeilN talk to me 00:53, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not commenting on the "dime a dozen" but weight should be determined by how much lasting coverage the incident receives. If reliable sources forget about the incident six months from now (or give it a cursory mention) then the one sentence currently in the article should be sufficient. If it has some sort of lasting impact on his life, we can look at expanding the text in the future. --NeilN talk to me 17:51, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Nothing irregular"? - did you actually watch the incident: Yelena Välbe, president of the Russian Ski Federation, told reporters that: "Finland should be disqualified ...". [5] Why is this not mentioned in the article? --IIIraute (talk) 23:47, 23 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A competitor complaining about a rival. Yes, that's unusual. Never happens. Was the complaint upheld? --NeilN talk to me 00:49, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
User:Le Grand Bleu wrote: "The Finn changes lanes, the German falls, the Russian wobbles, the Finn finishes first. Germany protested, the protest was dismissed."
Your reply: "That's your interpretation. What's Jauhojärvi's? We're not accepting a competitor's view as fact."
Here are some "neutral sources":
Reuters is a neutral source: "Germany's Tim Tscharnke hit the ground after bumping into Sami Jauhojaervi. The Finn, who was ahead, changed his line just before the final sprint." [6]
Fischer Sports: "In the last lap sprint specialist Nikita Kriukov (RUS) fighted against loosing the contact while Tim Tscharnke was in the lead of his way downhill into the stadium. In the hairpin turn the Thuringia took the outer line, Sami Jauhojärvi overtook on the inside and cut Tscharnke's way with heavily touching the German's ski. That made Tscharnke fall and he nearly brought about Kriukov's downfall. Indeed the Russian was able to avoid a fall he lost his speed and wasn't able to catch the Finn." [7] --IIIraute (talk) 00:58, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The six-member race jury ruled on the matter, and they are the only authority here since Germany did not appeal the verdict. Välbe's team would have taken gold if Germany's protest had gone through, so her comment is not exactly shocking and has no place to be repeated here. It even appears that the Russian skiers themselves were not happy about the protest, per this Finnish article based on Russian news sources and the confirmation for the quotes from Russian sources. Kriukov stated that he might have been able to take gold without the collision, but that he lost in a fair fight. Vylegzhanin stated that Jauhojärvi did not break the rules and added that "he was ahead and chose the line that was more comfortable for him." Prolog (talk) 03:39, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Germany did not appeal the verdict because they finished 7th place after this → [8]. --IIIraute (talk) 03:47, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed change

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Given the new source provided (assuming it is reliable), what do other editors think about:

Germany launched a protest over the result due to Jauhojärvi cutting into Tim Tscharnke's way and causing a final-leg collision between the two, but it was rejected by the jury.

--NeilN talk to me 01:06, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid that's not the best source for a summary about this incident. Fischer is the ski supplier/sponsor for Vylegzhanin and the Germans. Jauhojärvi left Fischer in the previous season to join the new One Way team. Prolog (talk) 01:22, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
NBC News: "Finnish anchor Sami Jauhojarvi changed lanes heading down the final stretch, impeding German skier Tim Tscharnke, causing him to crash and fall of contention for a top-three spot" [9] --IIIraute (talk) 02:02, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That source, while a bit short, looks reliable. What do you think of my proposed wording change, IIIraute? --NeilN talk to me 02:13, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think your wording seems fair. Did you watch the crash → [10] - do you think it is a fair summary? --IIIraute (talk) 03:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't watch the crash (I don't even watch the sport). This is why I've repeatedly suggested using neutral third party sources to describe the event. Readers like me don't know the fine points of the rules and we shouldn't rely on other editors' interpretations. --NeilN talk to me 03:25, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, fair enough - but what about your gut feeling. Please watch this link → [11] - I think your wording is quite fair. --IIIraute (talk) 03:41, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The summary about the incident should reflect the mainstream view and be cited to a proper English-language article. Cherry-picking inferior sources that put the most blame on one side of a dispute is not neutral. It's not even clear if this four-sentence video description is the work of a professional journalist. NBC's actual article on the event is worded quite differently: "The final moments of the event saw contact made between leader Jauhojaervi and German skier Tim Tschnarke that sent the latter falling into the snow. One camera angle appeared to show Tschnarke moving inside in an attempt to get behind Jauhojaervi, while another appeared to have the Finn coming across Tschnarke." Prolog (talk) 03:50, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

From the official Olympics site:

Germany's Tim Tscharnke looked well placed to secure a podium finish for his team, but fell after touching skis with Jauhojärvi on the last descent.

His fall nearly took out Kriukov as well, but the Russian kept his balance well to cross the line for second place.

The German delegation later submitted an official protest, claiming that their athlete had been impeded unfairly, but their appeal was rejected by the jury, which ruled that there had been nothing irregular in the incident.

For his part, Jauhojärvi stressed he had done nothing wrong, but admitted he felt for the German team.

"Unfortunately, Tim was crossing my line a bit and our skis -- or something, I think it was skis -- collided a bit, and he unfortunately fell down."

Given this, I think the current wording has the proper weight. --NeilN talk to me 22:23, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by "given this"? That's not news. That's the reason there is a dispute. --IIIraute (talk) 22:33, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The official, ostensibly neutral, reporting assigns no blame in the collision. --NeilN talk to me 22:37, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's the part the dispute is about - "the official", i.e jury verdict! --IIIraute (talk) 22:41, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Which does not belong in this biography at the current time. --NeilN talk to me 22:53, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Says who? → what about Adelina Sotnikova & Kim Yuna, for example. The jury decision is disputed - exactly that is the point. There are enough WP:RS to support the inclusion of this dispute to the article. --IIIraute (talk) 23:06, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So where are the in-depth reports from independent neutral sources like the NY Times, Reuters, and past champions? All we have right now is the current Reuters source which doesn't allege athlete or judging wrongdoing. --NeilN talk to me 23:18, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Der Spiegel: "Die deutsche Team-Staffel der Männer kämpfte um Gold, als ein Finne Schlussläufer Tim Tscharnke zu Fall und um alle Chancen brachte. Ein Protest des deutschen Teams wurde abgelehnt." & "Der Schlussläufer des späteren Siegers Finnland, Sami Jauhojärvi, war Tscharnke in die Spur gelaufen und hatte den Deutschen damit zu Fall gebracht." [12] --IIIraute (talk) 23:28, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A German source with three short paragraphs, most of which quote the German competitor. --NeilN talk to me 23:42, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That German source is one of the most respected news magazines in the world: "“To say what is”, is the motto that exhorts Der Spiegel’s 1,200 staff to write and produce what is; to report, analyse and critique the world as it is, factually and faithfully, without fear, bias or influence.", "FACT-CHECKING HAS BECOME an arcane — and increasingly rare — process in the world’s newsrooms. Der Spiegel, however, makes a virtue of its fact-checking department, which forms a crucial professional layer in the refining of text, separate from the usual editors and lawyers involved in the publication process." (The Global Mail) [13]
As of 2010, Der Spiegel was employing the equivalent of 80 full-time fact checkers, which the Columbia Journalism Review called "most likely the world's largest fact checking operation". [14]
Süddeutsche Zeitung "Dann wird Tscharnke kurz vor dem Ziel zu Fall gebracht...", "In der Endphase, in der Deutschland mit Finnland und Russland eine Spitzengruppe bildete, fuhr der Finne Sami Jauhojärvi über die Skispitzen von Tscharnke." [15]
Neue Züricher Zeitung "Der Deutsche Tim Tscharnke wurde vom Finnen Jauhojärvi leicht abgedrängt, worauf er stürzte und dabei den Russen Nikita Krjukow touchierte, der den Rhythmus verlor." [16]
Chicago Tribune "Germany's Tim Tscharnke hit the ground after bumping into Sami Jauhojaervi. The Finn, who was ahead, changed his line just before the final sprint. ... Tscharnke said Jauhojaervi took his line, causing him to fall. "The Finnish guy crossed my line, that's why I fell," he told reporters after Germany finished seventh. "I simply couldn't do anything. We'll protest."" [17] --IIIraute (talk) 23:48, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And here's the Finnish point-of-view: [18] "As Jauhojärvi, Kriukov and Germany's Tim Tscharnke emerged neck and neck from the final curve, the lines of Jauhojärvi and the German cross, causing the latter to hit the ground. Kriukov managed to stay on his skis and mustered a final challenge that was fought off by the resolute Jauhojärvi.". and [19]. So, given these sources (German, Finnish, Olympics), how would you write the text? --NeilN talk to me 00:23, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Include the dispute. --IIIraute (talk) 00:32, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's there: "Germany launched a protest over the result due to a final-leg collision between Jauhojärvi and Tim Tscharnke, but it was rejected by the jury." --NeilN talk to me 00:44, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is not there - the main dispute occured after the verdict; i.e the jury decision is disputed. Logic - isn't it, as the reports already include the jury decision, yet still maintain that Sami Jauhojaervi caused the crash. --IIIraute (talk) 00:48, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"the main dispute occured after the verdict" - source for this? Apologies if you already included it but all I see is German reactions and nothing else. --NeilN talk to me 01:11, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The reports of Der Spiegel, Süddeutsche Zeitung, and Neue Züricher Zeitung, for example, all maintain that Sami Jauhojaervi caused the crash. Their articles already contain the jury decision, but they still maintain Jauhojaervi caused the crash. --IIIraute (talk) 01:18, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Someone else will have to comment on that as the English translations contain contain only this assertion by Süddeutsche: "In the final phase, in Germany, Finland, and Russia formed a leading group, the Finn Sami Jauhojärvi drove over the ski tips from Tscharnke." --NeilN talk to me 01:29, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Why did you not translate the first sentence of that Süddeutsche Zeitung source I did quote above: "Then Tscharnke was brought down [<lit.> brought to fall] just before the finish." --IIIraute (talk) 02:27, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Der Spiegel: "The German mens team-relay was fighting for gold, when a Finn brought relay anchor Tim Tscharnke to fall, and to lose all chances. A protest by the German team was rejected. The final Finish runner and eventual champion, Sami Jauhojärvi, had run into the lane of Tscharnke, causing the German to fall."
Neue Zuricher Zeitung: "The German Tim Tscharnke was slightly pushed away [forced back] by the Finn Jauhojärvi, whereupon he fell, touching the Russian Nikita Kryukov, who lost the rhythm." --IIIraute (talk) 02:16, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Because that's not what Google had translated. For example Der Spiegel: "On the last meters crashed Tim Tscharnke, when he fought with Finland and Russia to gold. The 24-year-old was thus deprived of all opportunities." There are other editors involved in this and hopefully they will comment. --NeilN talk to me 03:45, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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