Talk:Salty liquorice/Archive 1

This comment was left behind by User:24.253.35.153 within the main article. I've temporarily moved it to the talk page until (and if) it can be refactored in, in a less conversational tone:

-I'd like to chime in that in Canada, you can locate salmiak candy at the 'Sugar Mountain' stores in Toronto, and one might assume, other cities large enough to support a significantly multicultural population. Quite thrilling, really, since I was raised on this kind of candy (family's danish) and used to have to wait for my Aunt to come over for visits and bring it with her ;) I can also confirm that almost everybody outside my family hates the stuff, though it's great trading candy with Dutch friends - and every Nederlander I've met calls them 'dropies', pronounced like 'droap-ees'. The same aformentioned aunt indicated that it was common to take a bag of the Turkish Pepper candies, crush them up, and put them in a 750ml/1l bottle of Vodka and let them dissolve. It was only on reading this article that I found out this drink is also commercially made and marketed.

Your aunt is correct. And while on the topic, if you put the vodka in a 2L plastic bottle (or an equivalent type of dishwasher safe equipment) of the kind you'd find coca cola in, and add the crushed Turkish Pepper, then shove it into a dishwasher (don't forget the cork), the heat will melt up the pepper candy real good.

NOTE: For those Nordic transplants to the United States, or those Americans that have acquired a taste for the barely-palatable confection, you can find it amongst the ice cream and sweet shops (Ingeborg's Chocolates, for example) on main street in the small Danish-themed town of Solvang, California - just a few miles Northeast of Santa Barbara.

While this is mildly interesting, it is very granular and I can only imagine what the odds are of an NHL hockey player of Finnish origin reading this right before they are about to begin summering in the town of Solvang, California, wishing they had some Salmiakki. It can be ordered on-line from anywhere around the world anyhow. —RaD Man (talk) 5 July 2005 15:41 (UTC)

-- In reply to the above: For ex pats who hanker for "saltlakrids" and don't live within driving distance of Solvang, the Nordic House in Oakland does mail ordering. As far as the terminology: When I was a kid in Denmark, "saltlakrids" and "salmiaklakrids" were both used, the former probably more common. I do have to agree that pretty much no one who didn't spend some of his/her childhood in the regions mentioned can stand the stuff. (A number of friends who like "regular" licorice have insisted on trying it, only to spit it out.) Gnmtndogs 23:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

-To the person from Canada: I think you mean 'dropjes' (pronounced: drop- (as in a drop dead) yes. To whomever is related to this article: in The Netherlands we have 'drop' (liquorice) in all kinds of variants, drinks, candy, etc. We have the salty ones, the sweet ones, the real salmiak ones, etc. I find it strange that the article states that salmiakki is oncommon outside the Nordic Countries, as that same variant is also popular in The Netherlands, and even has the same shape. I red the text over and over again, to make sure that I was not mistaken, but as far as I can tell, the Salmaikki used in that line, is the same as the one very populair in The Netherlands. Furthermore: I was redirected to this page from Dutch licorice. Need I say more? So the line that salmiakki is only known, and popular in the Nordic Countries, is redundent. That is why I've removed the following line: "Salmiakki is extremely popular in all five of the Nordic countries. It is uncommon outside Europe, but can be found in many delicatessens as well as in the Swedish furniture store IKEA that capitalizes on its Swedish image by selling a small selection of Swedish foods in addition to furniture in many markets.", and changed it in: "Outside the Nordic Countries, The Netherlands and Germany, salmiakki can also be found in the Swedish furniture store IKEA that capitalizes on its Swedish image by selling a small selection of Swedish foods in addition to furniture in many markets.". I think that this line would be more accurate. And to make this article more complete: in The Netherlands we have a type of 'drop' called by the Dutch as 'Engelse drop' (translated into English: English liquorice). In the UK that kind of liquorice is called 'Liquorice allsorts'. We also have a liqueur called 'Dropshot'; a liqueur with 20% alcohol, served on the rocks, with energy-drink, 7-up, Sambucca, cola, etc. Rob --84.104.123.100 16:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

-In addition to the text above: liquorice is the most eaten candy in The Netherlands; weet, salty, every kind. Around 32,000,000 kg liquorice is eaten in The Netherlands per year. I have a link, that is only in Dutch (a pity), but describes liquorice as being 'typicaly Dutch', altough (according this site) in the Nordic Countries, liquorice is eaten more and more often. The link of that site is: [1]. This site is meant for schoolchildren, who have a schoolpresentation about this topic. Perhaps there are more site's who can reveal more information about liquorice, only then in the English language. Rob--84.104.123.100 16:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I thought it was already established in the article that salmiakki is found in Germany and the Netherlands, not only in the Nordic countries. I myself added a sentence about the Netherlands being called "the sixth Nordic country" because the Dutch like salmiakki so much. Still, salmiakki seems to be unpopular outside the Nordic countries, Germany, and the Netherlands. My brother brought some salmiakki to his school in Vence, southern France, and everyone who tasted it spit it out and said it tasted horrible. JIP | Talk 18:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh so rare outside Norden & Netherlands?

Salmiak (same name in German) is absolutely common in Germany, at least here around Hamburg. I doubt if many people are aware of the Finnish connexion, although connaisseurs' stuff does come from Finnland or the Netherlands. We also know the drink here, Türkisch Pfeffer (which is sold in any supermarket, petrol-station shop, tobacco shop, you name it) dissolved in vodka. It possibly goes by different names; one of them is Schwarze Sau (black female pig) for some reason. (You have to prepare it the day before the drinking, to make sure the TP dissolves properly!)

The only non-Nordic countries I have really visited are the UK and Germany. I can tell you the British don't know anything about salmiakki. In Germany, the only cities I have been to are Berlin and Munich, and I have not encounrted salmiakki in either of those. But if there is salmiakki in Hamburg then it should be mentioned in the article. Based on my experience, I basically took Jukka Annala's word for salmiakki being unknown outside the Nordic countries and the Netherlands. JIP | Talk 21:26, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

(Same person as above speaks:) Well, sweet liquorice is much more popular here in Germany, but that Turkish Pepper stuff is really ubiquitous, as I said. Perhaps I can get some German salmiak in a supermarket and make a photo, but I'm years out of phase technically so I won't promise anything. I guess, though, that the "cultural importance" of salmiak is nil down here, whereas in the Netherlands and Scandinavia and Finland it seems to be much bigger. (I remember a Dutchman I once knew who lived in Germany and who complained on several occasions that "they don't make the 'really good' stuff in Germany", and that one of the first things to do for him when back in NL was to buy some good Dutch drops, extra salty.)

If you have information of salmiakki made in Germany, feel free to add it in the article. I am most certainly interested in knowing about salmiakki made outside the Nordic countries or the Netherlands. Turkish Pepper, of course, is known throughout central Europe, so I'm hoping there's more to German salmiakki than that. JIP | Talk 19:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Can be found in Northampton, Massachusetts too, in one of our local specialty food stores. I'd venture that probably a number of places with significant numbers of immigrants and yuppies will have exotic food stores which sell it. --71.192.116.13 04:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it sold in pharmacies? 134.245.3.65 15:09, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

• Salmiak in Germany, pictures, first round:

File:SALMIAK.PNG

salmiakki from a German supermarket

First thing I can offer you is this here: two brands of salmiak bought in an average German supermarket near Lübeck, a supermarket not in any way specialised on imports or Scandinavia or sweets or whatever, just the place where you buy milk and fruits and cheap TV sets and so on. BUT: I just told someone to get me some from the supermarket, and I forgot to tell him that its partly about German brands of salmiak, and now I've only got one Finnish and one Dutch brand (curiously: they are both labelled mainly in Danish, if my language recognition skills don't cheat me -- you can't see it on the photo, but the Panda stuff has an essay about "Den rigtige smag af lakrids" on its backside). However, this demonstrates already that we do have salmiak here in Germany (or at least in the region I live), and not just Turkish Pepper.

One remark: I didn't think of the van Slootens as genuine salmiak because they are rather sweet and, as you can see, aptly labelled liquorice ("lakrids" in... Danish for some reason ("foreign branding"?)). But I checked the ingredients list, and voilà, it says "ammoniumchlorid" (sic) in English and cognates of "salmiak salt" in all other languages, including German.

Also, I'd like to add that the person I sent to "get me some Salmiak" didn't ask "what? sahl-mee-what?", but he just said ok -- because salmiak is absolutely not uncommon here ;).

One final note to the sceptics: Although the packages on the photo don't look German, I am in Germany and I did buy them here. Check my IP and the date on the photo. I did not buy them in Finland, jump into my personal jet, fly to Germany, and upload the photo. ;)

Ok, I'll see to get some really German stuff next time (have patience, I'm lazy and my Internet connection sucks). (Yes, pharmacies are a good idea, but I'm sure that supermarkets are a promising source as well.) So long.

BTW, this is a geekish and funny thing to do. :))

-- Salmideutscher 22:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC) (same person as above, but this time with a purpose-fitting alias)

Thank you for this reply. I have to admit that as soon as I looked at the picture I thought "that can't be German salmiakki" as I recognised them as Finnish and Dutch. But then I saw that you had already addressed this concern. I have added the picture to the article. If you don't want it there you can remove it. I'm looking forward to actually seeing some salmiakki that is made in Germany, not just sold there. JIP | Talk 07:47, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Edit by User:Aika-Poika moved here. -- Salmideutscher 00:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

• Salmiak in Germany, pictures, second round (hey, I'm fast)

File:Salmiak deutsch klein.png

German salmiakki

Look, I got this from the same supermarket (just because it's the next place from my home). (I've made a photo of the... cash voucher?... in case you really, really want to have a look at it.) Those on the left are probably the most basic salmiaks, and they have the typical shape (which is perhaps a good illustration for the article, although then perhaps not because they're not Nordic/Dutch). The package says they're from Flensburg. Those on the right are very hard drops, harder than Turkish Pepper. It's a brand from de:Kaltenkirchen. There's a web address on the package (I didn't have a look at it, just mentioning it in case you're interested). BTW, both packages were priced €0·99. I could also have bought some in any pharmacy, but it's normally more expensive there.

Hm, what shall we do? You'll probably understand now why I was so irritated by the article's claim that salmiak is more or less a Nordic/Dutch "ethnic food" and considered exotic in other regions. I think the article should be changed, since this doesn't reflect reality, at least not here in Germany. But I'm not sure how to do it, partly because much of the article seems to be based on that book I didn't read. Then there is the fact that you didn't see salmiak in Berlin and Munich... maybe it's a North German thing (also considering that both brands I bought are from Schleswig-Holstein, which might be a coincidence)?

-- Salmideutscher 15:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Now you've made me interested... where can I order those German salmiakki brands from? JIP | Talk 15:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The article is only partly based on Annala's book. Annala's book should not be taken as gospel, or even a principal source. I didn't start the article, but I added the mention of the book. The book says salmiakki is only popular in the Nordic countries and the Netherlands, but you have obviously shown it to be wrong. For me, it's only good and proper to edit the article to mention that salmiakki is popular in Germany if that's the case. There was a mention in a Finnish newspaper that some Finns went to the Conan O'Brien show and gave Conan a can of Finnish beer and a box of salmiakki as a gift. Conan drank the beer on stage and commented that it tastes like Eisenhower-era dish water. According to the newspaper, Conan didn't even dare to open the salmiakki box, much less taste the salmiakki. So this supports the view that salmiakki is pretty much unknown outside Europe. JIP | Talk 17:33, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm guessing that was Lapin Kulta. It's horrid, Finnish Bud. They shoulda brought some sahti. --Stlemur 18:04, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

It was Lapin Kulta. I like it, but it's not my favourite beer. Efes Pilsener is better. JIP | Talk 19:55, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I changed the article @ geographical distribution. I don't want to dive into "original research", so I tried to word it carefully. JIP, I have no idea where to order German salmiak on-line, sorry. (The Jahnke page has some kind of shop, but it seems not to be targeted at home consumers.) I'd of course be open to sending you an assortment in exchange for interesting Finnish beer :), but with what I've heard of Finnish alcohol prices that probably wouldn't be a good deal for you. --Salmideutscher

File:Lidl salmiakki.jpg

This bag (left) was bought at a Lidl store and it was made somewhere in the EU (it doesn't say what country) for Lidl Stiftung & Co in Neckarsulm. On the rear is has text in German, Finnish, Swedish, Norwegian and Danish. // Liftarn

The following comment by User:Aika-Poika was moved hither from here by User:Salmideutscher.

CLARIFICATION:

The stuff in the picture is NOT salmiakki but liquorice. First: The bag on the left contains candy that shape is a brandmark only for liquorice (in Northern countries). It might have little quantities of NH₄Cl in it but it still is not salmiakki. Second: fhe paggage on the right reads "lakrids figurer" which is Swedish for "liquorice figures". It really annoys me when foreigners are not talking about the dog but its collar.

Aika-Poika 22:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

• Hello, (1) I don't understand your second sentence ('The bag ... for liquorice'). (2) And we already know that Lakridsfigurer is Danish, by the way, for liquorice figures. I came up with these pictures to support my claim that a thing which is called Salmiak is indeed common in Germany, because the original version of the article claimed differently. You seem to disagree on the definition of salmiak(k)(i). You seem to define it by the quantity of NH₄ the stuff contains (while the article now says, and I believe, that any NH₄-flavoured liquorice is salmiak(k)(i)). Do you have some kind of authoritative definition at hand to bring some light in this discussion? Maybe it is slightly different things which are called salmiak(k)(i) in different countries or languages. (This discussion is complicated by the fact that English doesn't seem to have a proper word for it.) (3) When you say 'foreigner' you mean foreign to which country?
• PS: Incidently I noticed that the Panda bags are now sold here in a slightly different design -- with a Norwegian text on it. Hmm... *scratch*
• --Salmideutscher 00:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Salmideutscher.

(1) I added a clarification to my text i.e. Northern Countries. This shape is very distinctive to liquorice meaning that the shape itself is called "liquorice shape" in Finland. Same way as shape called "salmiakkishape" is a streched square that is standing on its one corner. That's how everyone (within Finland atleast) can tell which is liquorice and which is salmiakki - also the taste would tell it for sure. Liquorice gives the candy its sweetness (and other flavours) which salmiakki doesn't have at all. Salmiakki is quite bitter and burning, but it also can be diluted to be more suitable for kids.

(2) As a laboratory technician and with three years of professional studies of chemistry I am used to call things with they real names i.e. salmiakki is NH₄Cl only (sometimes plus some baking materials i.e. sugar and wheetflour if we are talking about the candy) and if there is a little of this stuff and liquorice put together, it is called "salmiakki-flavoured liquorice". But you're right: maybe things are not always called the same in all countries (which is a pity sometimes - missunderstandings occure). I ought to go and buy salmiakki one day and take a picture as well as ingredients. I put it on my list ;)

(3) Foreigner = non-Finnish :)

Aika-Poika 22:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Now we have some pictures (finally), sorry they are not very good:

• A Small paggage of "Apteekin salmiakki" (Farmacist's salmiak) which is a candy containing both salmiakki and liquorice plus some other ingredients i.e. wheat flower.
  A Small paggage of "Apteekin salmiakki" (Farmacist's salmiak) which is a candy containing both salmiakki and liquorice plus some other ingredients i.e. wheat flower.
• 
  "Apteekin salmiakki", part of the ingredients. You can see "salmiakki (ammoniumkloridi)" which means "salmiak (ammoniumchloride)".

I think you touch on important issues here. Is this article about Finnish Salmiakki (which if I understand you correctly is mainly NH₄Cl) or are we talking about a wider category of sweats. I know the Dutch Salty-Licorice is Salmiak flavoured but it is only one of many ingredients; so if that is no true Salmiakki then every reference to the Netherlands must be removed from this article. However, if the Dutch stuff is Salmiakki, then this article is highly Finnish POV. (PS we have our licorice in all kinds of shapes, including the stretch square, but also circles, oblongs, ovals and even cars (auto-drop), farm animals (boerderij-drop), coins (muntdrop) all with their own flavour, e.g. if the licorice (sweet) is mixed with honey it is given the shape of old fashioned honey-combs (honingdrop) But that is just Dutch trivia ;-) Arnoutf 22:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I think Arnoutf brought it to the point—what are we talking about? Aika-Poika, I don't know if I understand you correctly: are you saying that salmiakki is merely a synonym of ammonium chloride? I have my doubts with that. In German, and apparently it is similar some other languages (also Dutch I think, but not English, unfortunately), ammonium chloride is indeed called Salmiaksalz (Salz = salt, obviously) or Salmiak for short. But Salmiak (or, even shorter, Salmi) is at the same time the common name of salmiak-salt–flavoured liquorice (= the scope of this article). I assumed that this is also the case in Finnish–after all, those Panda bags read salmiak (they have also ones which read lakrits). But I see no mention of them on their home page. (It is a pity it is all in Finnish, 99 % of which I don't understand, and English, which is a foreign language with terminology problems, apparently. Where is the Swedish text, damn it? ☺) The Dutch situation seems to be somewhat different, since salmiak[zout] seems to be only the name for ammonium chloride, not for the liquorice product. Right?

Maybe we should

• move the article to something like Salmiak[ki]-flavoured liquorice or
• make a disambiguation like
  • Salmiak[ki] is a name for ammonium chloride, see there. It is also the name for salty liquorice flavoured with ammonium chloride in Country-A/B/C or Language-A/B/C. See salty liquorice. or
• have a better idea.

– Salmideutscher 22:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice summary. In Dutch the term: Salty Licorice is generally used. Salmiakdrop (SalmiakLicorice) is occasionaly used for licorice with a very high salmiak content. We (the Dutch) would however classify it all together under drop (licorice) as the high level category. Arnoutf 22:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Addition.

I just came across a text that states (straight translation from Finnish to English); "salmiakki, lat. sal ammoniacus, ammoniumchloride NH4Cl (...)" So is the word salmiakki actualli a poor "translation" of ammoniasalt? Intresting. This text can be found in Finnish iGS-web service (http://igs.kirjastot.fi/iGS/kysymykset/kaikki.aspx?word=&all=1).

Aika-Poika 11:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Liquorice

The article currently has a heavy Finnish slant whereas I would humbly suggest that other countries, in particular Holland, are the most well known internationally. Certainly in the delicatessens I've seen in Australia it is always described as Dutch liquorice despite its origin.

I have tweaked the article a bit but one of the main issues I see is that the article seems to want to avoid the most common form of this confectionary which is salty liquorice. I assume that is why it is almost always black and I suspect that is the main reason it is loathed in many countries because people generally think of liquorice as being sweet.

My recollections of travelling in Europe is seeing a bewildering selection of salty liquorice type products ranging hugely in texture and composition but all sharing the common trait of being salty. Garglebutt / (talk) 04:14, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

But what is it?

The article gives the impression that Salmiakki is only Ammonium chloride with black colouring, and possibly added liquorice, but doesn't state it clearly. Is that correct? I have only tasted salmiakki once (it's not exactly common in South Africa), and I'm sure there was liquorice in it, but that isn't exactly conclusive evidence. However, I find it hard to believe people can eat pure ammonium chloride (even if it tastes good, isn't it poisonous?) --대조 | Talk 19:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Salmiakki is really just an old name for Ammonium Chloride (which, by the way, is not poisonous and tastes quite good pure if you like liquorice), but it is also used to mean any sweets with similar taste, such as liquorice or anise, whether or not they actually contain any ammonium chloride. Most Swedish or Finnish people would probably use a different word if there is no ammonium chloride in it, as we can - believe it or not - taste the difference. If you hear the word "salmiakki powder" it is probably only pure ammonium chloride. Hymyly^T@C 15:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

IMAO something can only be called "salmiakki" if it contains some ammonium chloride. If I buy something called "salmiakki" and it only tastes like regular licorice or anise, I'll be very disappointed. JIP | Talk 14:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I would have to check, but the candy probably contains sugar, ammonium chloride, salt (depends), liquorice (depends), colouring and gelatin (I'd guess). I'll have a look on the bag next time I pick some up. // Liftarn

It bothers me that people keep referring to liquorice when they're talking about salmiakki. Liquorice comes from a plant. Salmiakki is manmade ammonium chloride (NH3 + HCl → NH4Cl) and is also used e.g. in fertilizers and coughing medicines. M = 53,5 g/mol, bp = 520 °C, density = 1,5 g/cm3 and CAS-number =.

Some candies are made of both salmiakki and liquorice and are usually called "salmiakki-liquorice" or "salmiakki flavoured liquorice".

Dutch name is NOT salmiak

In Dutch the name for the candy is DROP, salmiak is reserved for the salt; or sometimes for the salt mixed with sugar (also wart wit); or (but rarely in day to day use) salmiakdrop (the Dutch usually refer to it as salty drop (i.e. salty liquorice) to compare with sweet drop, honey drop, english type drop, etc. etc. Arnoutf 12:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

RENAME to SALTY LICORICE CANDY

After reading this article, I had a look in the Oxford Dictionary (no mention of Salmiakki as an English word) and at Google (where only Finnish pages, and this wiki page popped up). Therefore I strongly suggest to rename this page to Salty licorice. The name Salmiakky is apparently Finnish in origin (not in Dutch (zoute drop) and not in Swedish (Saltlakrits)). So there is no English name, and there is no single name in the areawhere it is consumed. Therefore we should go for an unbiased easily understood name. So I say Rename Arnoutf 20:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

No need to renaming. Salmiakki refers especially to ammonium chloride (NH₄Cl) as an ingredient and not to licorice itself. The Finnish term for non-ammonia salt candies is lakritsi (licorice). Salmiakki and lakritsi are two different types of candy.

194.89.192.24 09:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Well in that case any reference to the Netherlands should be removed from the article as we don't differentiate. As it is now, the article seems to include both the Salty licorice (larger category) and the specific Salmiakki (specific category).Arnoutf 12:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

FYI The Salmiakki term exists in Swedish as well, salmiakki is properly known as "Salmiak Lakrits", not necessarily "saltlakrits" which is a common term for any type of salty licorice. 64.173.240.130 23:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Any candy containing ammonium chloride may be called salmiakki. It doesn't matter which country it's made in. JIP | Talk 14:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

That last is a bit weird as Salmiakki is not an English word; it is a bit like stating that every loaf of bread with mixed in sugar should be called Fries Suikerbrood (see Dutch cuisine). We could perhaps better rename the article to Salmiak (candy) as this is used in Denmark Sweden and Netherlands while Salmiakki is used only in Finland Arnoutf 22:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

My comment was about salmiakki/salmiak versus "salmiak lakrits" or "saltlakrits", not about salmiakki versus salmiak. JIP | Talk 05:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The candy is not called salmiakki even in Finnish proper - it is salmiakkimakeinen. Furthermore, the 1913 Webster & GCIDE do recognize the word "salmiac" that means ammonium chloride - perhaps the article should be renamed to "salmiac candy". Ztn 07:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Featured Article.

--TriPittaChay 00:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)My friend is studying Finland for school, and my teacher is letting her write her research paper on Salmiakki. She's talking about it nonstop now, and I never really knew what it was until I read this article. It was very well written.

Incorrectly Labeled "Swedish Licorice"?

If my eyes are not failing me, the second image is of the candy known as "Djungelvrål", made by the company Malaco (Malacoleaf.com). This is a Danish company, so i'm not sure if the candy can be classified as "Swedish". "Scandinavian" or "Nordic" would be a better label.

[2].

64.173.240.130 23:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Djungelvrål is definitely Swedish. And I thought Malaco was too. YuckieDuck 23:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Not confectionery

The wikipedia entry for confectionery says...

The term confectionery refers to food items that are (or at least are perceived to be) rich in sugar.

From what I can tel Salmiakki isn't "rich in sugar" so shouldn't be called confectionery.

81.107.45.205 23:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It is rich in sugar, only because of salt and licorice root and salmiak the dominant taste is not sweet.Arnoutf 14:29, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

salty liquorice terminology mixed up

The salty taste in certain kinds of liquorice comes from ammonium chloride, not from table salt. I'm Dutch, but have lived in Sweden and I'm pretty sure that "lakrits" includes ammonium-chloride based salty liquorice (also in Denmark and Norway). Same for "zoute drop" in Netherlands. I made a change to reflect this, but I don't know enough about the Finnish customs. I suspect that there are three types of candies:

• A: hard, brittle consistency, high concentration of NH4Cl
• B: softer, moderate concentration NH4Cl, with Glycyrrhiza glabra extract
• C: softer, no NH4Cl, , with Glycyrrhiza glabra extract

Names: A: salmiakki B: saltlakrits (Skandinavian languages); zoute drop (NL) C: sötlakrits (Skandinavian languages); zoete drop (NL) If I'm correct, category B should go into a separate article. Han-Kwang 10:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I think you are reasonably correct, although Dutch Salmiakdrop, which has a high concentration of NH4CL is not necessarily hard and brittle. IMHO Salmiakki is a sub-category of salty-licorice (ie a salty licorice with high levels of NH4CL). Arnoutf 16:12, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I asked the people at the "dropkraam" on the open-air market yesterday (they didn't know much, though), and I've spent over an hour searching the web (in Dutch, Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian) for ingredient lists and common usage, and apparently only in NL, there is a distinction between 'salty liquorice' and 'salmiac liquorice'. In the other languages, they are equivalent, although the 'salty' spelling variety is much more commonly used. Only Finnish is hard for me to judge. Swedish-language Fins only seem to use salmiakki for the drink. Han-Kwang 08:24, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, in common Finnish, people use "salmiakki" for pretty much anything that contains ammonium chloride (= salmiakki); so far I have not been able to find any product that did not contain liquorice. However, calling the confectionary salmiakki is actually incorrect; the proper terms are salmiakkilakritsi - that is usually ordinary soft liquorice spiced up with ammonium chloride, or salmiakinmakuinen (sth with a taste of salmiakki). E.g. the famous Tyrkisk Peber, or Turkinpippuri is described as "salmiakkipippurikaramelli" - that is salmiakki pepper candy - it only tells that it contains pepper extracts and ammonium chloride. However, stating that "salmiakki" means some exact kind of confectionary, as in this article, is IMO wrong. A Finnish dictionary (Kielitoimiston sanakirja) tells that salmiakki is ammonium chloride used in cough medicine, confectionery and batteries; and may also mean salmiakki candy (salmiakkimakeinen). Ztn 07:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

This makes perfect sense. Anyone opposing a move to salty liquorice candy? Han-Kwang 08:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Support the move Arnoutf 12:11, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

While I support calling this article "salty liquorice" I oppose calling the Finnish term "salmiakkilaktritsi". Even though probably all salmiakki candies contain liquorice they are mainly referred as salmiakki in common speech. Even though they contain other ingredients I don't think it is incorrect to call them just "salmiakki" in Finnish. Note that the Finnish dictionary says "salmiakkimakeinen", not "salmiakkilakritsimakeinen". I think all candies that have ammonium chloride can be called just salmiakki, but that does not exclude terms like "salmiakkilakritsi". The same way that a chocolate bar can be called just a "chocolate bar" even though it might contain nuts, almonds or other stuff. Here's some Finnish links to reflect the usage in Finnish:

http://www.delfin-tuote.fi/index.phtml/art/1170/t/prodgroup1 "salmiakki makeiset" = salmiakki candies

http://www.kolumbus.fi/haganol/ "salmiak of pharmacy" = a brand of candies

http://www.suomalaistasisua.fi/isosisu.cfm "vahva salmiakki" = strong salmiakki

http://www.salmiakki.fi/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1 Finnish Salmiakki Association (Note that they refer it just salmiakki, not salmiakkilakritsi.)81.175.134.236 08:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

No problem with explaining the popular Finnish name. Arnoutf 20:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

However, it would be stupid to call the chocolate bar with nuts simply "nuts" because it contained nuts. See the distinction. The same goes with "salmiakki" which means just ammonium chloride. --213.139.171.67 10:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, Ztn just said that the Finnish dictionary says that in Finnish salmiakki can also mean salmiakki candies, and I referred many pages that say just "salmiakki" and not "salmiakkilaritsi" or "salmiakkimakeinen"(salmiac candy) when obviously meaning the candy. In Finnish language "salmiakki" does not mean just ammonium chloride. It also means candies containing ammonium chloride.84.250.50.59 (talk) 23:10, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The point of the last remark being? Arnoutf (talk) 10:48, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

That calling chocolate bars with nuts just "nuts" is a different thing from the Finnish way of calling salty liquorice "salmiakki", and the word "salmiakki" doesn't mean "just ammonium chloride" in Finnish.84.250.50.59 (talk) 01:36, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to Salty Liquorice

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Original name have been discussed as being Finnish POV. Now it has become clear that even Finnish seems not conclusive (see above). Hence the suggestion is to rename this article to the more neutral "Salty Liquorice".

• Support my own (reinstated official instead of the previously removed) rename request per above Arnoutf 17:40, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support, see discussion above. Han-Kwang 11:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC) I think Salty liquorice candy is more appropriate, though.
• Comment — I have changed the proposed title to sentence case in line with the naming conventions. --Stemonitis 17:32, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from salmiakki to salty liquorice as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 07:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Introduction Nordic only or also mention NL and No Germany

The introduction now only mentions that the candy is not popular outside the nordic countries (ie Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden). Although I am much in favour of a short introduction I think this has taken it too far. There are 6 countries mentioned in the article where the stuff is popular; only 4 are in a single term mentioned in the intro (a full third is not). I think addition of N Germany and Nl in the intro is essential to allow the intro to stand on its own.Arnoutf 14:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Huh? I edit the article reflecting a weeks-old discussion on the Talk page and a couple of hours later there seems to have been an edit war going on. Anyway, please note that Scandinavia does not include Finland, whereas Nordic countries does. The current version is not consistent in that respect. Han-Kwang 14:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it is inconsistent. The involved editor has somehow included Germany and even the Netherlands (which he refers to as Holland) into the Nordic countries. I think we have to be comprehensive already in the introduction. --Arnoutf (unsigned)

I refer to NL as many things: Holland, The Netherlands, Nederlands, Pays-bas. They are all the same thing. And yes Scandinavia may include Finland, as given on the wikipedia page. As I've said, English is a fluid language. --Belg4mit 15:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

• I would suggest to replace Scandinavian with Nordic in the second section and add Northern Germany and Netherlands in the introduction

Basically this is what I did, and that was reverted very aggressively. I will leave this suggestion up, and see how others respons before implementing. Arnoutf 14:55, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I changed it to nordic so that Germany needn't be explicitly listed in the introduction (to keep it short and legible). I also contend that the definitions of nordic allow The Netherlands to be ommmitted for brevity as well. Note that the phrase "nordic countries" is not the same thing as Nordic countries. Certainly one should feel free to list each individual country later in the article. However, since all of the countries where this food is commonly enjoyed share a common heritage, and there exists a word to describe this, it ought ot be used. --Belg4mit 15:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry but I don't agree with your conclusion with regard to nordic/Nordic (although I can understand your reasoning). IMHO we should write this article aimed at the relatively (naive) reader. Can we really expect this reader to immediately and unambivously understand the difference between 'nordic countries' and 'Nordic countries'. I seriously doubt this. Therefore I think the distinction made by the lower case "n" is just to subtle for practical use.

The problem is that the Dutch do not have the same origin as the Fins (not even closely). Admittedly they were all part of the early Germanic tribes, but they moved and mixed a lot and can now be found everywhere in Europe (and the US for that matter). Nevertheless are these candies consumed in only a fairly limited subset of Germanic language group people (note that the Dutch and the Germans are counted among the West Germanic (with the English, and the Flemings) while the Nordic peoples are considered North Germanic).

Although I am in favour of brevity, comprehensiveness should have the stronger voice. This has basically been my reason to change "loathing" (not your edit btw) to "general dislike" for the Marmite case; as the first line demands of everyone outside the Commonwealth (valuable addition over UK only) to actively "loath" the yeast stuff, while the second phrase allows some people to like it anyway. The same with the opening section. Salty liquorice is big in the Netherlands (which has more inhabitant compared to Sweden and Norway together). For a candy liked in so few countries (6 in which in Germany it is only a regional treat) leaving out the country out of these 6 with the largest number of inhabitants (except Germany, but the regional thing goes there) would in my opinion result in an oversimplification. Ie a simplification that violates the necessary elements of the introduction, making this introduction no longer be an acceptable stand-alone summary of the article. Arnoutf 15:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Re: Nordic, I feel that a reasonable compromise is nordic and Netherlands, although I acknowledge that for some (i.e; Europeans) the phrase "nordic countries" has been overloaded by a singular meaning akin to the Nordic Council. However, I'm not going to bother with this article anymore since you two seem to have such strong feelings the other way. Re: Marmite, that's why I modified it with "typically", still allowing for the original word choice and strong sentiments of those whom have not "accquired the taste." --Belg4mit 15:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough suggestions, the "typically" for Marmite is ok with me (I'll take out the fact tag), and if we can and Netherlands I am happy with this. Your other copy-edits throughout the text were noted and appreciated (although the recent controversy may have indicated differently). Arnoutf 16:02, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, one potential problem I see is linking Nordic countries instead of Nordic since the former doesn't seem to (really) include Germany. Germany is only mentioned there in reference to the close ties of Southern Schleswig due to its location on the Jutland peninsula, and more specifically as this region being included in one of the alternate definitions of Scandinavia. Of course Nordic countries does give more lip service to Finland… whereas with Nordic one must then click through to Scandinavia. --Belg4mit 16:56, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Northern Germany is one way or another difficult. If we adopt the definition of Nordic to include Germans that also implies Southern Germans (Bavaria). I have no clear answer how to do it this moment. Arnoutf 17:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

It's not impossibly difficult, as I described immediately above. However, it no more means that Bavarians like it than it does that every dingle Dane, Swede, Finn, Norseman and Dutchman do. It simply means that Deutschland is one of the few countries wherein lies a population that does in fact enjoy this candy. --Belg4mit 20:01, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

What of User:Stlemur's (St. Lemur? Stottlemeyer) decision to sidestep the discussion, despite being well aware of its existence? --Belg4mit 20:01, 9 June 2007 (UTC)