Talk:Salle Le Peletier

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Proposed move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move done. Fences&Windows 19:57, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Théâtre de l'Académie Royale de Musique → Salle Le Peletier — Several sources refer to this theatre as the Salle Le Peletier, while none have so far been found which use the current name. Robert.Allen (talk) 10:26, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources using Salle Le Peletier include:

Barbier, Patrick (1995). Opera in Paris, 1800–1850: A Lively History, p. 36. Portland, Oregon: Amadeus Press. ISBN 9780931340833. (written as "Salle le Peletier")
Charlton, David (2003). The Cambridge Companion to Grand Opera, p. 492. Cambridge University Press.
Fauser, Annegret, ed.; Everist, Mark, ed. (2009). Music, theater, and cultural transfer. Paris, 1830–1914, pp. 382–384. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press. ISBN 9780226239262. (written as "Salle le Peletier")
Gerhard, Anselm (1998). The Urbanization of Opera: Music Theater in Paris in the Nineteenth Century, p. 57. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press. ISBN 9780226288574.
Pitou, Spire (1983). The Paris Opéra: an encyclopedia of operas, ballets, composers, and performers (3 volumes) 1: 44. Westport, Connecticut: Greenwod Press. ISBN 9780686460367.
Sadie, Stanley, ed. (1992). The new Grove dictionary of opera (4 volumes) 3: 867, 874. London: Macmillan. ISBN 9781561592289.
Simeone, Nigel (2000). Paris: a musical gazateer, p. 196. Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0300080537.

One source refers to it as the Salle Lepelletier:

Mead, Christopher Curtis (1991). Charles Garnier's Paris Opera, p. 50, etc. Cambridge, Massachusetts: The MIT Press. ISBN 9780262132756.

Another refers to it as the Salle de la rue Le Peletier:

De LaSalle, Albert (1875). Les treize Salles de l'Opéra, p. 235. Paris: Librairie Sartorius. View at Google Books.

Yet another as "the opera Le Peletier":

Hanser, David A. (2006). Architecture of France, p. 174. Westport, Connecticutt: Greenwood Press. ISBN 9780313319020.

Not one source that I have checked uses the name Théâtre de l'Académie Royale de Musique. Furthermore, that name is generic: it could also be applied to other theatres used by the Paris Opera during periods in which that company was called the Académie Royale de Musique, including the first Salle du Palais-Royal (1673–1763), the second Salle du Palais-Royal (1770–1781), the Théâtre de la Porte Saint-Martin (1781–1791), and the Montansier opera house (1814–1820).

The name Salle Le Peletier is simple and unambiguous, and is used by the most sources. Robert.Allen (talk) 10:26, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment French Wikipedia have their article at fr:Opéra Le Peletier. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:51, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we're supposed to use the Wikipedia itself as a source, but in the bibliography to the French article, they cite De LaSalle's book, which uses "Salle de la rue Le Peletier" as mentioned above, Buguet (1875) with the title L'Opéra dans la nouvelle salle de la rue Le Peletier; and Cain (1906) which refers to the building as "salle de la rue Le Peletier" on p. 335. "Opéra Le Peletier" appears in a few titles at WordCat. "Opéra de la rue Le Peletier" seems to appear in more. Both those names have the advantage of including the word "Opéra". Obviously any names not used for the title should be included as redirects. I still favor using Salle Le Peletier, the name used in the majority of English-language sources as listed above, in particular the standard reference work The New Grove Dictionary of Opera. --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:15, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It most certainly is permissible to use other languages' Wikpedias as sources. There are even a pair of WikiProjects devoted to the translation of articles, WP Intertranswiki and WP Echo, as well as a talk-page template to indicate that the related article includes an inter-Wiki translation, {{Translated page|sv|Anneli Alhanko}}, for example. — Robert Greer (talk) 19:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In any case, I don't really have any objection to the name used on the French Wikipedia, but I don't think there is any requirement that we use that name. --Robert.Allen (talk) 00:54, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There does seem to be a policy against using the Wikipedia as a source (see Wikipedia:Verifiability#Wikipedia and sources that mirror or use it), and it is also recommended to use English sources when possible (see the section right below). I'm not sure how this relates to your argument about translating articles from Wikis in other languages to English. Presumably these foreign language articles have citations to sources that will end up in the translated article. It seems like the translation projects are primarily focused on articles which do not already exist in the English Wikipedia or articles that are stubs and can be expanded that way. That doesn't seem to be the case here. --Robert.Allen (talk) 04:27, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I did two searches on Google:

search string: "opéra le peletier" -wikipedia -wiki gave "60 results"
search string: "salle le peletier" -wikipedia -wiki gave "About 3,780 results"

I did not examine the results in great detail, but this does seem to suggest a preference for "Salle Le Peletier".--Robert.Allen (talk) 04:52, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I did similar searches on Google Books:

search string: "opéra le peletier" gave "21 results"
search string: ""salle le peletier" gave "About 1,460 results"

(The quote marks were included in the search strings.) The results again appear to favor "Salle Le Peletier". --Robert.Allen (talk) 04:59, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I did some more Google searches on variants of the proposed name:

search string: "Salle de la rue Le Peletier" -wikipedia -wiki gave "78 results"
search string: "Opera de la rue Le Peletier" -wikipedia -wiki gave "About 12,400 results"
search string: "Opera de la rue Le Peletier" -wikipedia -wiki -Degas gave "93 results"

The last search shows that the extraordinarily high number of hits for "Opera de la rue Le Peletier" is almost entirely due to the popularity of the 1872 painting by Edgar Degas which is entitled Le foyer de la danse a l'Opera de la rue Le Peletier. That version of the name is not nearly as common in other contexts. The evidence from all of the above suggests that "Salle Le Peletier" is the most commonly used name for the theatre, and according to WIKIPEDIA:COMMONNAME this would be the best choice for the article title. --Robert.Allen (talk) 01:10, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Napoleon III

In the Palais Garnier article it says, "There was an attempted assassination of Emperor Napoleon III at the entrance to the Salle Le Peletier on 14 January 1858. The Salle Le Peletier's constricted street access highlighted the need for a separate, more secure entrance for the head of state. This concern and the inadequate facilities and temporary nature of the theatre gave added urgency to the building of a new state-funded opera house." I would add this information to this article myself, but it is uncited (or cited to an offline source). Abductive (reasoning) 08:12, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]