Talk:SS Choctaw/Archive 1

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:SS Choctaw/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: 1.02 editor (talk · contribs) 09:00, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

I'll be taking this review, expect comments within the next few days. 1.02 editor (C651 set 217/218) 09:00, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Issues

• The sections need sorting. I recommend having 4 sections: Design and construction, History, collision, discovery.
• the infobox mentions that it has a 765 horsepower engine whereas the prose mentions 900. Which is correct?
• 'temporary repairs were made to the Choctaw...' the prose makes no mention of when the actual repairs were made.
• the photo in the collision section is irrelevant.
• the current collision section focuses mainly on what happened on the wacondah rather than on the Choctaw.
• also could there be a mention of the rough location of the sinking and 'shipwreck alley'?
• Discovery- mention of the sinking and future discovery of the Ironton is irrelevant
• Note B- can this be mentioned in prose instead of its current state

hold

I have reviewed the article and have put it on hold while improvements are made. 1.02 editor (C651 set 217/218) 08:54, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Other user comments

• A red link is present "On May 20, 1896 the Choctaw collided with the larger steel freighter L.C. Waldo which tore a 10-foot hole in her starboard side". For any "B" class articles no red links should be there at the first place (unless it is deliberate for the page to be created later to prevent any complications downstream. will withdraw this concern if it is so). --Quek157 (talk) 15:06, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
• As per above, the lead paragraph mentioned "collision with the Canadian package freighter Wahcondah." then the body mentioned larger steel freighter L.C. Waldo, hopefully more harmony can be given. What exactly is the ship name??? --Quek157 (talk) 15:09, 23 April 2018 (UTC) sorry misunderstanding --Quek157 (talk) 19:06, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
• "Ohio was lost on September 26, 1894 when she collided with the schooner Ironton", what have this have to do with the present ship?--Quek157 (talk) 18:35, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Image copyright issues

@GreatLakesShips: None of the images appear to be licensed correctly. The images were obviously all taken before 1921, but that does not mean they were published before 1921, which is what copyright law requires. None of the sources for the images have publication information, nor do they state the image to be in the public domain. These issues need to be addressed before the article passes Criteria #6. Parsecboy (talk) 17:08, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

@Parsecboy and 1.02 editor: Is this copyright issue resolved now? If not this GA has been going on for almost 15 days without notice. With the original reviewer (1.02 editor) on semi-retirement wef yesterday, and the copyright seems not resolved, and no attempts are to do it, can we simply close it as failed based on not meeting #6. --Quek157 (talk) 20:44, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

@GreatLakesShips:, if it is resolved, and the nominator cannot carry on, you may ask to be placed back into the queue. --Quek157 (talk) 20:45, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

@GreatLakesShips and Quek157: sorry for the delay I am closing now 1.02 editor (C651 set 217/218) 02:46, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

closure

The article fails criteria 6 of the GA criteria (the articles' images are not licensed properly) and there has not been any edits made to this page for close to a fortnight. Hence, I will be closing this review as a fail. 1.02 editor (C651 set 217/218) 02:46, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Dimensions

GreatLakesShips, please read the Metrics section of Hull (watercraft). Depth is not height. Height can be a measure of the vertical distance between the keel and the top of the highest structure on the ship. (See RMS Queen Mary 2.) The distance above the waterline is air draft, and below the waterline it is draft (draught). Neither of these is depth. Kablammo (talk) 01:56, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Site description

@Michigan Gold Diver:, thanks for improving this article. I just wondered, where did you get the site description? Unfortunately, if it isn't verified, it needs to be deleted.

This is Michigan Gold Diver; I didn't "get" the site description, I wrote it based on more than 10 hours of video, collected remotely and by divers in 2017 & 2018. I don't know anybody else who has this quantity and quality of data on the wreck, so I have no idea how to "verify" it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michigan Gold Diver (talk • contribs) 21:41, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 19:31, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Painting of Choctaw

• ... that Choctaw (pictured) was one of only three semi-whaleback ships ever built? CHOCTAW Shipwreck Site National Register of Historic Places Registration Form
  • ALT1:... that the wreck of the freighter Choctaw (pictured) was discovered on May 23, 2017, nearly 102 years after she sank? Researchers discover remains of 2 century-old shipwrecks in Lake Huron

• Reviewed: Jutta Lampe
• Comment: Article promoted to GA status on December 8. The lead hook is my favourite.

Created/promoted to GA by GreatLakesShips (talk). Self-nominated at 14:44, 8 December 2020 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting:
• Other problems:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: New GA. All points check out and both hooks are cited, ready to go. Moonraker (talk) 02:37, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

• Hi, I came by to promote this, but I don't see the hook fact in the article. I see that two other semi-whalebacks were built, but not that they were the only three ever built. Yoninah (talk) 19:01, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Yoninah: Hi, thanks for notifying me. I have modified a sentence to fit the hook. GreatLakesShips (talk) 19:10, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

• @GreatLakesShips: thank you, but which source verifies this hook fact? Yoninah (talk) 19:15, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Yoninah: There are multiple sources. The one included here is one of them. It is in section 7, page 5. These sources:[1][2][3], verify that there were differences between the ships (I don't know whether or not that is important for the DYK). GreatLakesShips (talk) 19:24, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

• Now I see it, thanks. Restoring tick per Moonraker's review. Yoninah (talk) 19:28, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Yoninah: Thanks. GreatLakesShips (talk) 19:30, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:SS Choctaw/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 07:37, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Okay, this looks to be in pretty good shape, most of this will be prose/layout.

• On the hatnote, the link to Choctaw (disambiguation) isn't really helpful. Remove that one, but keep the one to USS Choctaw.
• Combine the lead into two paragraphs.
• Whaleback is overlinked in the lead
• "almost 102-years after she sank by a team" - Drop the hyphen, comma after sank.
• "Her wreck was finally located on May 23, 2017, almost 102-years after she sank by a team from the Thunder Bay National Marine Sanctuary; her wreck was discovered resting in about 300 feet (91 m) of water, lying on her starboard side, with her bow partially buried in the lake bottom.[2][8]" - This is a very long sentence. Break it into two sentences with the break at the semicolon, and start the second one off with "She ..."
• NRHP listing should be mention in the body, as well.
• Per WP:LEADCITE, the inline citations in the lead don't need to be there.
• The various measurements vary slightly between the infobox and the prose
• Not seeing where the 1573.61 and 1256.28 tonnage figures in the infobox are coming from.
• Remove footnote B. Since the link to Andaste is included, we don't need to footnote the ship's whole story.
• Lead specifies that the design was to step around the patent, include this in the article.
• Was she launched on May 25 or 15? The prose and the infobox say different things.
• Link cylinder head
• "Unfortunately the explosion killed two and injured one of her crew" - Unfortunately is a word to watch. It should probably be removed here.
• "r L.C. Waldo which tore a 10-foot hole in her starboard side, she sank onto a shoal at the Soo Locks in the collision" - Semicolon, not a comma
• See WP:PROSELINE. Can we condense some of the super short paragraphs in the service history section, and rephrase some of the sentences to reduce the number of times they start with "On"?
• "On the day of November 9, Choctaw was in Marquette Harbor during the White Hurricane of 1913 when her Captain, Captain Charles Fox saw the 545-foot (166 m) long steel freighter Henry B. Smith leave the shelter of Marquette Harbor.[22] After about twenty minutes of being battered by waves, Captain James Owen decided to turn Henry B. Smith to port to seek shelter behind the Keweenaw Peninsula. Then all of a sudden Henry B. Smith fell into the trough of a breaking wave and was never seen again; that is until her wreck was located in May 2013 in 535 feet (163 m) of water.[23]" - Everything except for the fact that Choctaw was in Marquette Harbor during the White Hurricane isn't really about Choctaw, and should be removed as off-topic.
• "Unfortunately this didn't stop the package freighter from slicing into the port side of Choctaw between her 1st and 2nd cargo hatch" - Again, the issue with "unfortunately". Also, spell out contractions. There are a few other contractions in the article, as well.
• In the wreck section, combine all of the short sections before the discovery into a single paragraph.
• "was a very sought after shipwreck" - Hyphenate sought-after
• Since the Facebook post isn't really supporting anything unique, go ahead and remove it. It's actually not a bad reference, as its the verified reliable source group, but somebody might complain if it gets left in there.
• Alphabetize the bibliography.
• I'm not sure if Great Lakes Vessel History quite passes WP:SPS.
• Need a better source than the YouTube link. YouTube can be an acceptable source, but only if we can confirm who posted it (and that person is a reliable source). We can't seem to be able to do that here.
• Atlas Obscura is not a reliable source.
• We've got some MOS:SANDWICH issues. In my opinion, there are a few too many pictures. My advice would be to remove the Andaste, Yuma, and Ohio pictures and moved the sonar image from the infobox to where the Ohio picture is now.
• Registry number doesn't seem to be cited anywhere.

Willing to discuss any of these and help as need be. Hog Farm _Bacon 06:06, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

@Hog Farm: Could we keep the paragraph of the 1913 storm, but remove most of the story of the Henry B. Smith?

The patent evasion is only mentioned in the Great Lakes Vessel Histories website. Does that mean I should remove it? GreatLakesShips (talk) 12:34, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

I think the Henry B. Smith paragraph is good in its new form. If the patent evasion is only mentioned in the GLVH website, then it could probably be removed. The article will still be able to meet the GA criteria without that, so it can be removed. Hog Farm _Bacon 16:12, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

@Hog Farm: I have completed all the things you said needed doing. I have replaced the patent evasion part with information regarding the ship's construction from a much more reliable source. GreatLakesShips (talk) 16:26, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll try to take another look at this after work today. It's really close to passing. Hog Farm _Bacon 16:28, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

@Hog Farm: Thank you very much for promoting this! I was confused for a moment because I just got a message saying the nomination had failed. GreatLakesShips (talk) 06:18, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Sorry about the message. What happened is that this article was nominated for GA a few years ago and failed. The bot that handles GA notices (Legobot) has a known bug where it sends a message that the GA failed if there's a previous GA failure on the talk page, even if it passed the second time around. Hog Farm _Bacon 06:22, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

@Hog Farm: Thank you for clearing that up. GreatLakesShips (talk) 11:01, 8 December 2020 (UTC)