Talk:Rustamid dynasty

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Copyright

This article is lifted verbatim from experts.about.com/e/r/ru/Rustamid.htm and is therefore a clear copyright violation.

Contradiction

ˤAbd ar-Rahmān ibn Rustam is mentioned twice. First as Ibadi coming from Basra and second as Tunisian-born.Hakeem.gadi (talk) 19:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, it says that he was born in Tunisia, of Persian origin, and educated in Basrah. So I don't see the contradiction there. rcduggan (talk) 18:39, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

145.8.104.65 (talk) 09:18, 29 May 2012 (UTC) What is a persian origin? Persia is very huge? Did he spoke a Persian language? Was Tunis occupied a by persian force?[reply]

And why did the Berbers supported him? Where the berbers a stupid nation that couldn't create a state in their own homeland?

And why do all historians speak about a Tahert Kingdom and not about somekind of rustamid emiraat like you do?

And how in the hell is it possible to turn berbers a very stupid nation since they were the ones who completely destroyid the Umayyads(Arab occupiers).

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New map and dubious territorial claims

There's been some edit-warring over the map in the infobox, and as HistoryofIran noted neither the previous map or the new map is well-sourced.

That said, the new map is more concerning and certainly looks like WP:OR: it's not based on any existing published representations of Rustamid territory, but only on a vague description in one source ([1]). There's no indication of what supports the many specific details of the map which, incidentally, show a vastly larger territory than any other map. What do the striped areas mean? Vassals? Temporary occupation? How have all these borders been determined? Based on what? The territorial extent described in the cited source does not look plausible and would need to be verified with more reliable sources given the the lack of any details and the inconsistency with other available sources. The same goes for the sources that have been spammed into the lead in support of the same claim: they are clearly cherry-picked to maximize the purported extent of Rustamid control, some are not very reliable, and some of the sources (like this one) undercut the more unusual claims of the others.

Additionally, the claims contradict other well-established information. In particular: the Tafilalt (Sijilmasa) was ruled by the Midrarid dynasty during this time, and aside from friendly relations between them there are no sources suggesting they were controlled by the Rustamids at any point and plenty of sources stating that the Rustamids had to contend with them as neighbours.^[1]^[2]^[3] The one source in the lead (a 1883 philologist article) that vaguely claims they "possessed" some tribes the Rif is also insufficient for this kind of claim, given the presence of other states in the area at this time, including the Idrisids at their height in the 9th century, and again the lack of any mention in other sources. Tlemcen was also under Idrisid rule for at least the early period, and even Tripoli itself remained under Aghlabid rule after the Ibadis failed to dislodge them.^[4]^[5]

Other reliable sources consistently identify central/western Algeria, southern Tunisia, the Jabal Nafusa (in Tripolitania) and parts of the Fezzan as Rustamid territory; there's no mention of their control going as far as Mauritania and Mali or further west, even if Ibadism did spread across the Sahara. Here's a sample of what I could find quickly on the topic:

Text references:

"Here, ‘Abd al-Raḥmān in 144/ 761 founded a Khārijī principality based on the newly-founded town of Tahert (Tāhart) (near modern Tiaret), and some fifteen years later he was offered the imamate of all the Ibāḍiyya of North Africa. This nucleus in Tahert was linked with Ibāḍī communities in the Aurès, southern Tunisia and the Jabal Nafūsa, and groups as far south as the Fezzān oasis acknowledged the spiritual headship of the Ibāḍī Imāms."^[6]
"The Rustamid (Rustumid, Rostemid) dynasty of Ibadi Kharijite Imam that ruled the central Maghrib as a Muslim theocracy for a century and a half from their capital Tahert in present Algeria until the Ismailite Fatimid Calipahte destroyed it. (...) The exact extent of its dominions is not entirely clear, but it stretched as far east as Jabal Nafusa in Libya.^[7]
"The Kharijite Rustamid state based at Tahert (western Algeria) was also established by a Persian missionary, ʿAbd al-Rahman b. Rustam of the Ibadi tradition. Their area of influence stretched to Jerba, Jabal Nafusa, and the Fazzan."^[8]

Published maps of Rustamid territory in reliable sources:

Figure 4.6 in this book (page number not provided but hopefully the link will lead you directly to it), whose map is based on map 2 of page 44 of Abun-Nasr's history of the Maghrib.
Maps 5 and 8 (p. 20, 24) of Sluglett & Currie's atlas, although it shows a smaller territory (perhaps due to the semi-autonomy of the Jebel Nafusa^[9]).

Please use one of the maps above, or something like them in a reliable source, as the basis of a map instead. In the meantime, the previously used map on this article, even though unsourced and by the same author, is closer to what reliable sources say. It's not ideal but certainly preferable until a better, properly-sourced map comes along. R Prazeres (talk) 00:26, 8 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since it's been a while and no sourced maps are forthcoming, I've gone ahead and made a map directly based on one of the sources above (Figure 4.6 in Rushword 2017, "From Arzuges to Rustamids: State Formation and Regional Identity in the Pre-Saharan Zone" in Merrills (ed.) Vandals, Romans and Berbers: New Perspectives on Late Antique North Africa). I've added it to the article but you can find it here. It's crudely drawn but it should do for now instead of the flurry of unsourced maps. R Prazeres (talk) 08:11, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Bosworth, Clifford Edmund (2004). "The Midrarids". The New Islamic Dynasties: A Chronological and Genealogical Manual. Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 9780748696482.
^ Talbi, M. (1960–2007). "Rustamids". In Bearman, P.; Bianquis, Th.; Bosworth, C.E.; van Donzel, E.; Heinrichs, W.P. (eds.). Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition. Brill. ISBN 9789004161214.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: date format (link)
^ Jr, Paul M. Love (2018-09-27). Ibadi Muslims of North Africa: Manuscripts, Mobilization, and the Making of a Written Tradition. Cambridge University Press. pp. 27–29. ISBN 978-1-108-47250-0.
^ Abun-Nasr, Jamil (1987). A history of the Maghrib in the Islamic period. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 43–45, 46. ISBN 0521337674. Upon the death of the imam Abul-Khattab in the war against the Abbasid army in 761, the Ibadites in Tripolitania elected Abul-Hatim al-Malzuzi to succeed him. Al-Malzuzi initiated a Kharijite revolt against the cAbbasids in 768, in which also the Sufrites took part. The revolt failed and al-Malzuzi was pursued by the Arab jund into eastern Tripolitania where he was killed in 772. Defeat caused several Ibadite tribal groups to leave their homelands in Tripolitania and southern Tunisia and join the Ibadite tribes which a decade earlier had migrated under similar circumstances into Algeria. (...) The imam "Abdul-Wahhab entered into war with the Aghlabids when he led the Ibadite tribes of Tripolitania in an attack on Tripoli in 812. While the Ibadites besieged the town, Ibraham b. al-Aghlab, the founder of the Aghlabid dynasty died, and his son Abdulla, then commanding the troops besieged in Tripoli, was summoned to succeed to his father's authority. Abdulla left Tripoli by sea and the Ibadites thereafter lifted the siege in a way which suggests that an agreement had been reached between the Aghlabid amir and the Ibadite imam. Thereafter the Rustamid imams left the Ibadite tribes in Tripolitania and southern Tunisia to fend for themselves in their constant confrontation with the Aghlabids.
^ Talbi, M. (1960–2007). "Rustamids". In Bearman, P.; Bianquis, Th.; Bosworth, C.E.; van Donzel, E.; Heinrichs, W.P. (eds.). Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition. Brill. ISBN 9789004161214. To the east, after vain attempts to seize Tripoli from the Ag̲h̲labids, the Imām ʿAbd al-Wahhāb, who had directed the battle in person, relinquished the town itself and the seas to the Ag̲h̲labids, and contented himself with the hinterland, having been neither conqueror not vanquished, and with a reversion to the status quo ante. (...) In the west, the Imām ʿAbd al-Wahhāb allowed Idrīs I to capture Tlemcen in 173/789 almost without any adverse reaction.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: date format (link)
^ Bosworth, Clifford Edmund (2004). "The Rustamids". The New Islamic Dynasties: A Chronological and Genealogical Manual. Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 9780748696482.
^ Syed, Muzaffar Husain; Akhtar, Syed Saud; Usmani, B. D. (2011-09-14). Concise History of Islam. Vij Books India Pvt Ltd. p. 143. ISBN 978-93-82573-47-0.
^ Anderson, Glaire D.; Fenwick, Corisande; Rosser-Owen, Mariam (2017-11-06). The Aghlabids and their Neighbors: Art and Material Culture in Ninth-Century North Africa. BRILL. p. 3. ISBN 978-90-04-35604-7.
^ Jr, Paul M. Love (2018-09-27). Ibadi Muslims of North Africa: Manuscripts, Mobilization, and the Making of a Written Tradition. Cambridge University Press. pp. 27–29. ISBN 978-1-108-47250-0.

[1] Bosworth, Clifford Edmund (2004). "The Midrarids". The New Islamic Dynasties: A Chronological and Genealogical Manual. Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 9780748696482.

[2] Talbi, M. (1960–2007). "Rustamids". In Bearman, P.; Bianquis, Th.; Bosworth, C.E.; van Donzel, E.; Heinrichs, W.P. (eds.). Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition. Brill. ISBN 9789004161214.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: date format (link)

[3] Jr, Paul M. Love (2018-09-27). Ibadi Muslims of North Africa: Manuscripts, Mobilization, and the Making of a Written Tradition. Cambridge University Press. pp. 27–29. ISBN 978-1-108-47250-0.

[4] Abun-Nasr, Jamil (1987). A history of the Maghrib in the Islamic period. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 43–45, 46. ISBN 0521337674. Upon the death of the imam Abul-Khattab in the war against the Abbasid army in 761, the Ibadites in Tripolitania elected Abul-Hatim al-Malzuzi to succeed him. Al-Malzuzi initiated a Kharijite revolt against the cAbbasids in 768, in which also the Sufrites took part. The revolt failed and al-Malzuzi was pursued by the Arab jund into eastern Tripolitania where he was killed in 772. Defeat caused several Ibadite tribal groups to leave their homelands in Tripolitania and southern Tunisia and join the Ibadite tribes which a decade earlier had migrated under similar circumstances into Algeria. (...) The imam "Abdul-Wahhab entered into war with the Aghlabids when he led the Ibadite tribes of Tripolitania in an attack on Tripoli in 812. While the Ibadites besieged the town, Ibraham b. al-Aghlab, the founder of the Aghlabid dynasty died, and his son Abdulla, then commanding the troops besieged in Tripoli, was summoned to succeed to his father's authority. Abdulla left Tripoli by sea and the Ibadites thereafter lifted the siege in a way which suggests that an agreement had been reached between the Aghlabid amir and the Ibadite imam. Thereafter the Rustamid imams left the Ibadite tribes in Tripolitania and southern Tunisia to fend for themselves in their constant confrontation with the Aghlabids.

[:052-5] Talbi, M. (1960–2007). "Rustamids". In Bearman, P.; Bianquis, Th.; Bosworth, C.E.; van Donzel, E.; Heinrichs, W.P. (eds.). Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition. Brill. ISBN 9789004161214. To the east, after vain attempts to seize Tripoli from the Ag̲h̲labids, the Imām ʿAbd al-Wahhāb, who had directed the battle in person, relinquished the town itself and the seas to the Ag̲h̲labids, and contented himself with the hinterland, having been neither conqueror not vanquished, and with a reversion to the status quo ante. (...) In the west, the Imām ʿAbd al-Wahhāb allowed Idrīs I to capture Tlemcen in 173/789 almost without any adverse reaction.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: date format (link)

[6] Bosworth, Clifford Edmund (2004). "The Rustamids". The New Islamic Dynasties: A Chronological and Genealogical Manual. Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 9780748696482.

[7] Syed, Muzaffar Husain; Akhtar, Syed Saud; Usmani, B. D. (2011-09-14). Concise History of Islam. Vij Books India Pvt Ltd. p. 143. ISBN 978-93-82573-47-0.

[8] Anderson, Glaire D.; Fenwick, Corisande; Rosser-Owen, Mariam (2017-11-06). The Aghlabids and their Neighbors: Art and Material Culture in Ninth-Century North Africa. BRILL. p. 3. ISBN 978-90-04-35604-7.

[9] Jr, Paul M. Love (2018-09-27). Ibadi Muslims of North Africa: Manuscripts, Mobilization, and the Making of a Written Tradition. Cambridge University Press. pp. 27–29. ISBN 978-1-108-47250-0.

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