Talk:Russian invasion of East Prussia (1914)

Improved

I have rewritten the phrase “Despite more than threefold numeri cal superiority (250,000 Germans against 800,000 Russians) invasion ended with a crushing defeat of the Russian army, Russian losses were 9 times larger than the German”, added by Yura2404, who was trying to exaggerate Russian casualties in almost every article by cherry-picking sources and pointing to history books that contradicted what he was saying (for more about his vandalism, see [1] and [2]). His numbers given in the preface are not supported by the source he cited in the infobox. I have a digital version of Robert B. Asprey. L'Alto Comando Tedesco: le Strategie Militari di Hindenburg e Ludendorff Nella Prima Guerra Mondiale (1993). Milano: Rizzoli. P.39 and, if my text is correct, the Russian casualties are said to be 170,000 + 130,000 POW, which gives a total number of 300,000, whereas the Germans lost 100,000 (p. 39). The same numbers are given in the Italian version of this article. Hence, those who trust that book and cite it as solid evidence should put the casualty ratio at 1:3. It should be noted, also, that subsequent estimates of the armies and the number of casualties vary widely, so there is no need to make dubious claims in the preface and start the article with the phrase “despite more than x-fold numerical superiority… losses were x times larger”, until we know the exact size of the armies and their casualty rate.

Besides, the same editor made a number of unsourced references in “Comparison of forces”, thereby violating WP:NOR, and one that doesn’t support his estimate. Nowhere does his source speak of “430,000 men” and “145,000 soldiers plus 4,000 sabers”, respectively. The web page he referred to says only that “Prittwitz verfügte über 150.000 Mann, während jede der russischen Armeen größer war”. I’ve cleaned up that section. Eriba-Marduk (talk) 22:30, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

My opponent from Russia, Russians had a lot more than 800 000 soldiers. See: Сергей Нелипович, Первый блин комом, Восточно-Прусская операция 1914 года, 2012 y., p. 64. 562 Russian battalions against 8 th German Army on 1 sept. 1914 equal 35 infantry divisions. That more than 735 000 soldiers. With 389 squads of cavalry, auxiliary units and destroyed the Second army of Samsonov that's much more than one million Russian soldiers. losses of the 8 th German army for all September 1914 y.: 1555 KIA, 10412 WIA and 1552 MIA. About 13 000 casualties, not 40 000 only in First Masurian Battle. See: Сергей Нелипович, Первый блин комом,Восточно-Прусская операция 1914 года, p. 69 (Links to the official German history of the First World War: Sanitaetsbericht ueber das Deutsche Heer (Deutsche Feld- und Besatzungsheer) im Weltkriege 1914/1918. Bd.II. B., 1938. S.495. ) German official military history of the First World War - the most authoritative source about German losses. Therefore 10,000 german casualties in First Masurian battle, not 40,000 - the truth.Yura2404 (talk) 13:33, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

You're lying on the correlation of forces. First Russian Army had 6.5 infantry divisions at the beginning of the operation. Until the beginning of September its forces more than doubled. Yura2404 (talk) 14:44, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

You’re wrong again, as I’m just citing a source, not lying like you do. As has been noted above, “subsequent estimates of the armies and the number of casualties vary widely” and the only thing you are supposed to do here is to give sourced references, without violating WP:NOR and proclaiming yourself an expert in this field. Eriba-Marduk (talk) 15:02, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Do you not agree that the First Russian army at least doubled its strength by early September? Need sources? Do you not agree that the 562 battalions equivalent to 35 divisions in the Russian army? Do you not agree that one Russian division had 16 battalions? The German losses not vary widely, because we have an official German military history of the First World War. All other sources about German losses - are secondary. Yura2404 (talk) 15:07, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

The only thing I disagree with is the use of unsourced statements in Wikipedia articles. There is much controversy over the size of the armies and the number of casualties they suffered; even the numbers given by Nelipovich have been criticized by A. V. Oleynikov in his “Вклад России в победу над германским блоком в Первую мировую войну (1914-1918 гг.)”, Moscow, 2012. A lot of research related to this subject is yet to be done. Hence, my point is that you should provide different numbers in the infobox, i.e., the minimum and the maximum ones. My point is as simple as that. Eriba-Marduk (talk) 15:30, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm not against your position. Let there will be different numbers - minimum and maximum.Yura2404 (talk) 15:33, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Good, it looks like we have reached a consensus on this matter. Eriba-Marduk (talk) 15:35, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Transportation of the German troops in East Prussia

Could the editor of this chapter provide little more information how the German units (eight divisions) were concentrated to the scene of the places in the area from where they launched their attacks which destroyed the advancing Russian Army in the Battle of Tannenberg. If I have understand correctly from many old sources, the Germans even transported some units from Gumbinnen area by rail to Allenstein area through Königsberg. It was here when the Russian General Staff saw the effiency of the German railway transportation system. On the time when the Russians could transport two divisions, the Germans - thanks to the railway net work in East Prussia - were able to transport eight divisions to the coming battle area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.115.162 (talk) 18:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

• Such details should be added to Battle of Tannenberg (1914) article, I think. DonaldDuck (talk) 05:51, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Losses

Russian losses are huge, more than 6 times higher than the German. I adjusted the Russian losses because 80,000 is a blatant lie. --FEVK (talk) 23:45, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Numerical superiority

Russian numerical superiority over the Germans was more than 2 times --FEVK (talk) 23:46, 4 June 2013 (UTC)