Talk:Russian famine of 1921–1922

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 January 2019 and 24 February 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Austin spencer2. Peer reviewers: Noah Delgadillo.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 08:28, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Genocide

• It is policy that it should be obvious to any reader coming from the category to the article that the category applies, and why it applies.
  • Therefore add the evidence for genocide first, and then apply the cat.
• Describing even the Holodomor as genocide (rather than, say, mass murder) is iffy, although the case can be made: it requires that Stalin have cared which peasants he starved.
• In 1921, asserting even that Lenin intended mass death, and the consequent loss of resources to the Bolshevik state, is questionable. He could have caused millions more deaths by a simple, obvious, and feasible course of action, which he did not take.
  • Instead he reversed foreign and domestic policy so as to alleviate the famine.
  • Asserting that he intended to destroy any "national, ethnical, racial or religious group" goes well beyond the evidence.
• None of this denies the argument, made in the article and by several sources, that Bolshevik dogmatism was one of the causes of the famine.
• I presume that Ghirlandajo did not intend to remove either sources or supported text by reversion.
  • Doing so knowingly would be vandalism.

Septentrionalis 16:53, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

The categorization of Holodomor should be argued there. Frankly, I have only the weakest opinion on the subject.

Unjustified categorization of this article for that purpose is a violation of WP:Point, which is also policy. (For whatever it may be worth, the Famine of 1921 did starve many in the Ukraine, as well as Russia proper. That being said, I regard the comparison of body-counts for purposes of deciding which nationalism can yell "victim" loudest as a contemptible exercise; worthy of summary reversion, independent of all other considerations.) Septentrionalis 15:54, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Tsarist

I have reverted an edit that changed the spelling "tsarist" to "Czarist". I agree that a capital letter is appropriate, but I think the Ts spelling is more accurate than the Cz one. Witness the entry for Tsar: 'The spelling tsar is the closest possible transliteration of the Russian using standard English spelling'. Rbreen

Failed Good Article

There are no inline references and no images or even tables. joturner 04:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Odd. The relevant good article requirements

• the article be referenced.
  • It is, to quite decent printed sources, which are probably more reliable, on this subject, than anything on the web.
• that it contain images if possible.
  • I know of no relevant available image with secure provenance, and decline to adorn with random pictures of the Kremlin.

Septentrionalis 21:56, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

More problems

It is beyond me, how this article ever reached class B. When I can read a sentence like this: "The famine was the justification offered for the Bolsheviks' 1922 confiscation of Russian Orthodox Church property in Russia.", in the introductory section, it just fails badly. Would the proper ref be "God almighty"? lol this is ridiculous. There might be more problems, this is just a shocking example.

RhinoMind (talk) 02:42, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Original research

The claim of a "second civil war" against the peasantry is unsourced (as is the entire paragraph to which it belongs). The Trotsky paragraph should have a source noted in the References; is it the Life of Lenin? - and why should the reader have to guess? Septentrionalis 01:23, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Trotsky attributes blame many times to external conditions for the famine, whether in his Military Writings or his autobiography, "My Life." Furthermore, I don't see why my addition after the Kennan mention was deleted. If this is done, it seems that it would be better to put Kennan's finger-pointing in the "Charges and Countercharges" section, which I am going to do. (70.237.240.189)

It wasn't deleted: it was moved, because it interrupted the paragraph (implicitly) sourced to Kennan. I don't dispute the Trotsky quote, but do find it; if the present link says anything, please add the words to the article. I can't find them here. Note that it must cover 1921-3, after all but the Japanese had withdrawn; not 1918-1920. Septentrionalis 05:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

As this goes on, my patience in waiting for the citation diminishes. Septentrionalis 05:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Ultramarine's estimate of up to 10 million dead is not supported by his sources. Matthew White quotes no estimate for it separately higher than Furet's 5 million, and some lower. If it comes back with the same sources, it should be removed. Septentrionalis 05:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I will continue to put George Kennan's affixation of blame where it belongs: in the Charges and Countercharges section. It doesn't even (implicitly) interrupt the flow of the paragraph anymore, considering the recent changes. Any relatively objective observer will see that finger-pointing does NOT belong in a purportedly objective historical exposition. (70.237.240.189 07:37, 25 January 2006 (UTC))

Deletions of sourced material

Unfortunately, someone is instantly deleting the well-referenced material I am adding. Also, the person is inserting POV and unsourced material regarding Lenin's responsiblity. The grain sales started well before his illness. See this diff, all the statements are well-sourced [1]

Does one need to be a rocket scientist to see that something called "The Black Book of Communism" is probably a work that will spend much of its written existence villifying communism, and thus selectively choosing whichever facts fit that mission? As another user so eloquently put it, would we ask Hitler to write a history of the Jews? If one were to take Ultramarine's position: Yes! Why not? It's sourced, isn't it? (Kozlovesred 22:38, 25 January 2006 (UTC))

I repeat: I'll be just as relentless as you are, pmanderson. Why don't you join me in this discussion page and explain yourself? (Kozlovesred 00:07, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

Have you noticed that the section is not called Charges and counterchanges any more? But I will try another attempt, taking out all blame. Have you found the source for that Trotsky quote yet?Septentrionalis 00:23, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

No, I have not noticed that. My mistake. I'll be looking for that Trotsky quote. (Kozlovesred 01:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

I hope this suffices, Septentrionalis. It's fairly short, and explicitly titled "The Disabled of the Civil War." If it doesn't, then please tell me why, and I will attempt to go find another example. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1921-mil/ch16.htm) (Kozlovesred 02:58, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

Wait, my friends, I have found a better example. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1921-mil/ch64.htm) It's fairly long, but do yourself a favor and read one of the great masters of prose, even if you don't agree with his politics. (Kozlovesred 03:02, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

It's a vivid speech, and belongs in the article - but it seems to be saying that the "philanthropic" ventures are the instruments of the capitalist powers, not that they caused the famine. What am I missing (cut and paste, if you can)? Septentrionalis 04:21, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that he implies throughout that their (the Communists') hands were forced. Now as you probably well know, it's extremely hard, if not impossible, to elucidate all the causes for the famine, since with such a complex historical occurrence there's always a factor or more that somebody forgets or ignores. The Bolsheviks had a hand to play as well, of course. But the point is that they didn't act that way in a vacuum, nor did their adversaries. Kozlovesred 04:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

This might be a more direct article. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1921-mil/ch68.htm) Kozlovesred 04:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

That would be the one. Thanks, Koz. Septentrionalis 15:19, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

In fact, the Black Book of Communism is a respected academic book published in University Press by six historians. It has received extensive praise, see this [2]. No valid reason for ignoring NPOV on this article has been presented. Ultramarine 10:25, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

So it is; but most of Ultramarine's edits have been more anti-Communist than his source. Don't disparage it; read it. Septentrionalis 15:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

"'I'm convinced he's a robot produced by the CIA. Take his user-name: Ultra Marine. His level of contributions is quite phenomenal.... ...In the long term, I fear that Resistance May Be Futile." - Ultramarine user page.

Please try to avoid ad hominem. Also, will add a disputed tag for the unsourced and false statement that the grain sales were after his illness.Ultramarine 14:55, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

• His strokes and his aphasia are in Vladimir Lenin#Premature death. Does Ultramarine dispute those dates? (He really should do so there too.)
• Is Ultramarine claiming the grain sales took place before 1923? What is his source?
• After does not appear in the text. Septentrionalis 15:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

You are stating that his responsiblity can be questioned due to his illness. The famine was in 1921, his stroke in 1922, thus dubious.Ultramarine 15:25, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

And the grain sales, which were what I questioned his reponsibility for, were in 1923. Please read in context. 20:28, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Unless a dispute of fact is indicated on this page, the {{dubious}} tag is unwarranted. So far there is none. Septentrionalis 16:54, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Obviously there is a dispute of fact, this statement is obviously inaccurate.Ultramarine 16:56, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Cite sources for claims.Ultramarine 16:56, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I see no evidence for the assertion, which the present text makes, that the Tambov rebellion helped convince Lenin to change course. Unlike the other factors mentioned, it was not news in the spring of 1921.Septentrionalis 15:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

A very large scale peasant rebellion certainly contributed.Ultramarine 15:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

This would require evidence on Lenin's decision making. The Tambov rebellion should be mentioned; it may deserve a paragraph of its own - but not here. Septentrionalis 20:28, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Another strange argument: "rv. Info from unverified website do not count please read what exactly Pipes wrote and come back" Of course I have read the book, the link however gives a good summary. Ultramarine 17:58, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

We wrote almost simultaneously. Sorry about that. I hope the text below will clarify what I meant. And allow me to disagree that your link gives a good summary of Pipes. mikka (t) 18:10, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Pomgol liquidated

Later most of the Russian members organizing the aid was liquidated

Ultramarine, I have no doubts that this sentence is generally correct. However there are two problems with it. First, you took this info from a website of dubious authorsip, which cannot be considered reliable, even if it quotes some books. Hint: Game of telephone. Second, the key is the word "later". During the Great Purge nearly 80% of Old Bolsheviks were "liquidated" (that's why I tend to believe that the statement is true), but there is no reason to think this was related with their activity in Pomgol. mikka (t) 18:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I promise, I will write the Pomgol article, where, anmong other things, I will describe what and when exactly happened with their members. mikka (t) 18:06, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Just an example of the general ignorance displayed in the quoted (and deleted) sentence. Pomgol was a statewide effort with thousands of participants in various regional sections. So most probably the phrase meant to speak about Pomgol Central Committee created within VTsIK. mikka (t) 19:18, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Sources

• The Bolsheviks used this as an excuse to liquidate the Orthodox Church
  • Very plausible; but a source is needed both for the claimed connection to the famine and that this was only an excuse. Septentrionalis 18:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• Subordinate officials did not report famine in their districts until May 1922.
  • Again, a very plausible variety of administrative incompetence, but it needs a source. Septentrionalis 18:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

What about this one?

http://www.marxists.de/religion/crouch/bolshislam.html

"Popular support for Orthodoxy was significantly undermined, however, in late 1921 when its leader, Patriarch Tikhon, refused to sell off church valuables to raise foreign currency needed to feed famine victims, of whom there were millions. This was the context in which some 45 priests were executed for organising resistance to Trotsky’s campaign to seize wealth from the church. This harsh policy has to be seen in the context of a famine emergency, not as a malicious attack on the church."

Original source:

W. Husband, Godless Communists: Atheism and Society in Soviet Russia 1917-1932 (Illinois, 2000), pp.54-57.

Darth Sidious 02:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The famine was absolutely used as a pretext for an assault on the Orthodox church, which was perceived by the Bolsheviks as counterrevolutionary. So why not go to THE ORIGINAL SOURCES on such things, those being Bill Husband's book (cited above), Daniel Peres "Storming the Heavens," and maybe the 2 volume document collection in Russian "Politbiuro i tserkov', 1922-1925"? Carrite (talk) 16:11, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Tambov rebellion

I have readded this, with a linking sentence. Any peasant rebellion in 1921 is surely connected with the famine; but I have another reason to want it. The accounts of hostages and poison gas are widely enough distributed over the web that some readers will want to check them out; some PoV editors will want to add them. Including the (quite limited) facts will inform the first, and deter the second. Both are good. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:24, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

This article is overwhelmed with things "related", but close to none of the actual topic. Tambov Rebellion is detailed in its own article, but not a single word on the famine itself besides generalities. Copying information from one article to another is rather meaningless in wikipedia, which is not paper, and everything is a mouse click away. Please concentrate on what article title says. In its current state the article is very useless. `'Míkka 17:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

It started here. I must further disagree with the cutting of the first World War paragraph; part of Kennan's analysis is that the food supply of Russia was under strain before the crop failure. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The Sourcework on this article is horrendus, and most of the links are dead. For proper balanced, and up to date, research:

Holodomor and Ellman is completly malplaced as there is little relevance in a mass-starvation that took place in 1931-33 The article: how many victims did the "liquidation of the Kulak as a class" have? By Stephan Merl, vanderhoek and Ruprecht, 1985, futhermore is an attack on the number juggeling of the likes of ellmann and conquest. see also R.W. Davis on Ellmann's book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.53.37.133 (talk) 17:37, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Title

Hello,

There is an issue with the title of this article - there was no Russia in 1921. There was the RSFSR. The article clearly shows that Lenin both indirectly and directly caused this famine. However, it was after the First World War and the Russian civil war.

The article should, therefore, be renamed something along the lines of "Famine in Soviet Russia - 1921".

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:53, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually there very much WAS a Russia in 1921 — the Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic. It's quite proper to speak of "Soviet Russia" up until the establishment of the USSR in 1924. Carrite (talk) 16:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

POV issues

This article has the tone of a right-wing attack piece. Sensational assertions are improperly footnoted throughout: example "The Soviets were still exporting grain to fund industrialization" with no page cited, but an article on the 1932-33 famine listed as a source (!!!). Believe it or not, there is scholarship out there on this particular historical event... Carrite (talk) 16:06, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

The article in its current shape omits two important datails:

1. Two thirds of purchased seed grain were payed for with Soviet gold.
2. In March, 1922 the stocks in Russian ports reached more than 120,00 tons of food − due to the run down condition of the railway equipment.

With regard to this you can't keep completely upright the “money for nothing from the western philanthropists” thesis (not considering Münzenberg's Workers' International Relief which provided at least advertisement − sometimes in a rather doubtful way). Contentious is the resumption of grain export in 1923. At first glance it looks like pure cynism, but if you keep in mind the incredible slow train movement, (perhaps) still filled stores in the ports and the regional restriction of the famine, there is no reason why the Soviets should not have exported grain from intact regions, just to earn money for paying the foreign deliveries. (Information about Soviet gold and foodstuff in stocks from Surface / Bland, American Food in the World War and Reconstruction Period, Stanford 1931, p. 255 and 139) ----141.13.170.175 (talk) 19:13, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Ellman's article on 1932-33 says that this happened in 1922-3 in so many words. A source directly on the subject would be better; and his source will be accessible to me tomorrow. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:40, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

More seriously, how do you suppose the grain provided by the Western agencies was reaching the famine? By helicopter? No, through those same harbors; there was one moment at Odessa in January 1922 when the SS Manitowac was unloading famine relief while the SS Vladimir loaded grain to Germany. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:17, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

A "map of the ARA’s supplies routes to Europe and Soviet Russia" is available in the internet [3]. As far as I know the export of grain was forbidden in January 1922. ----130.83.117.163 (talk) 09:26, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

POV issues II

I have found a reference which appears to completely contradict the account of relief efforts given here. Norman Bentwich writing in 1954 has: "Anti-Russian propaganda was carried on by the (American) Government, the press, by preachers, lawyers and teachers; and the American people was made to beleave that withholding of relief from Soviet Russia was a democratic virtue. The Friends (Quakers) Service Committee and the Jewish "Joint" Committee, alone of the major philanthropic agencies, were attempting to bring relief to the Russian people, to innocent sufferers, the victims of barbarous pogroms perpetrated under the banners of those counter-revolutionary armies which the American Red Cross had continued to support.*footnote: He (Judah Magnes) had appealed in vain to Hoover to investigate the conditions of the children in Russia with a view to sending relief...etc" (Bentwich, Norman (1954) For Zion's Sake. A Biography of Judah L. Magnes. First Chancellor and First President of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. The Jewish Publication Society of America, Philadelphia. Library of Congress Number: 54 7440. Pages 108,109) Padres Hana (talk) 15:31, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

If you need a concise description of what has been going on, have a look on the first pages of volume II of Hoover's memoirs. He mentioned that the Siberian Intervention had been a severe obstacle in reaching a consent with the Soviets. In early 1921 they had negociated with Otto Wolff about buying boiler tubes and rails. The influence of the credit crunch enforced by UK, USA and France would be worth mentioning. ----130.83.117.163 (talk) 17:07, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Reference organisation

The references are given in two different standards. I intend to unify them with Sfn Harvard citations. 189.61.94.90 (talk) 12:56, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Cannibalism

The article Cannibalism contains an illustrative image taken from the famine, the caption to which links here. It would be helpful if that topic were addressed in the article. Thmazing (talk) 19:24, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Removal of pictures

I removed the horror pictures showing children in that position. It is inadequate and unnecessary for an encyclopedia to contain this kind of pictures. That shows more the narzism of the author to use humans in that position as a stylistic method. There are much better suitable pictures about the great famine, expressing situations there, than these pictures. Especially when also children are the audience in form of learning using Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.108.130 (talk) 12:34, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Hoover's ARA was not a member of the "International Committee for Russian Relief"

The "Russian famine of 1921" article currently states: "At a conference in Geneva on 15 August organised by the International Committee of the Red Cross and the League of Red Cross Societies, the International Committee for Russian Relief (ICRR) was set up with Dr Fridtjof Nansen as its High Commissioner. The main participants were Hoover's American Relief Administration,..." In Bertrand M. Patenaude's The Big Show in Bololand (p. 46) you may read that Hoover avoided all unnecessary European entanglements and kept the ARA appart of the "Nansen mission". ----130.83.23.163 (talk) 13:25, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

It's simply wrong to write that the "ICRR managed to feed around ten million people, with the bulk coming from the ARA, funded by the US Congress". In fact the ARA kept aloof of the ICRR. ----130.83.23.163 (talk) 18:10, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

League of Nations refuses to assist starving Russians

Do we have any resources for the League of Nations refusing to aid starving Russians? Perhaps another means to crush the burgeoning Socialist state?

-G

On this subject you may find some information in Kasper Braskén, The International Workers’ Relief, Communism, and Transnational Solidarity: Willi Münzenberg in Weimar Germany, Palgrave Macmillan, Houndsmills 2015, p. 46 (ISBN 978-1-137-30423-0).----79.199.0.72 (talk) 16:39, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

The Economic Weapon: The Rise of Sanctions as a Tool of Modern War by Nicholas Mulder discusses how the Allies wanted to undermine the Bolsheviks by cutting off trade to Russia (same as with the Central Powers in general, even after they surrendered). Historian932 (talk) 01:36, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Volga Germans

This article should elaborate more on the effect of this famine on Volga German populations, perhaps being a consequence of Soviet targeting of this particular ethnic group for destruction. 71.169.181.208 (talk) 21:42, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Do you have references? I thing not. Ethnic persecutions were started by Stalin. There was none in early 1920s. -M.Altenmann >t 15:44, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

If Lenin wanted a revolution in Germany, why should he starve Germans in Russia?Xx236 (talk) 11:48, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

I don't know the exact details but my impression is that the ethnic Germans in Russia had very little contact with people in Germany (entire communities picked up and left), so I don't know if there would have been much of an effect.Historian932 (talk) 01:38, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it was ethnic persecution until the 1940s for this group, but I heard that there were a lot of kulaks among the German population in Russia. However, time wise, that would still put the persecution in the 1930s, not the 1920s. Nakonana (talk) 16:45, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

1919-25

According to Polyakov the famine continued from 1919 to 1925. It's a Russian academic text. Xx236 (talk) 11:46, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Elman

Elman has been removed as a source, but his sweeping statement remains. It was added with this edit. https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Russian_famine_of_1921–22&diff=next&oldid=430613899 I will remove it, since the edit summary adding it explicitly states it is Elman's own words. Anarchangel (talk) 11:52, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Article revamped on 22 November 2019

The article has been expanded a little bit by user "Light show". First I am in doubt about following information:

"After an agreement was finally signed at Riga, the U.S. set up its first kitchen in Petrograd, where 1.6 million people had already starved to death."

As a source there is given Charles Bartlett "U.S. Food Relief for Communists?" (Enquirer and News, Battle Creek, MI, 2 August 1962). If we take the number of "about five million deaths" for true, this would mean that almost one third of the victims had already died before September 1921 — which seems to me not to be believable.

Second the article "Russian famine of 1921–1922" looks like beeing transformed in something I would call an article "American Relief Administration Russian Unit". Things may mostly be true but now there is a slant in the article — the famine seems to be seen only from a single stance.--130.83.152.165 (talk) 14:42, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Famine in Russia

It’s for an essay 105.227.3.233 (talk) 07:14, 11 March 2022 (UTC)