Talk:Royal Hungarian Honvéd

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 16:49, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Royal Hungarian Honved → Royal Hungarian Honvéd – As the article creator, I have carried out further research and identified that this appears to be, by far, the more common spelling even in English language sources. Bermicourt (talk) 21:31, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support, per Bermicourt. --Norden1990 (talk) 11:16, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Word usage

Hello, as a native Hungarian from Hungary, I find quite odd and somewhat misleading the EN title of the article. If you don't mind, here is a little Hungarian grammar below.

The word "honvéd" is a combo of "hon" ('homeland') + "véd" ('to defend'). It is actually shortened from "honvédő" ('homeland defender'.) This word can be used both as a noun (for the actual soldier, member of the armed force), and as an adjective, followed by a noun.

The armed force itself, on the other hand, is called "Honvédség", which is the word "honvéd" + a "-sXg" suffix, used to compose corporative nouns from other words. Example: "Rendőrség" which is composed from "rend" ('order') + "őr" ('guard') + "-sXg" suffix, means "Police". Note the X vowel within the suffix can be é or á, in accordance with HU vowel harmony https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Hungarian_phonology#Vowel_harmony

Hence name of the armed force is "Magyar Királyi Honvédség" (HU) which translates correctly as "Hungarian Royal Honvédség" (or "Hungarian Royal Homeland Defense"). The current title "Royal Hungarian Honvéd" means "royal Hungarian home defender soldier", which is incorrect, because the article is about the force, not the soldier.

The word "honvéd" can be used as an adjective (as a short form of its original "honvédő", detailed above) in names like "Honvéd Parancsnokság" ('honvéd commander centre'), where "parancsnokság" is a compound of "parancsnok" ('commander') + "-sXg" suffix (detailed above). But in itself, and as a noun, "honvéd" means the soldier only.

Hope this information assists you to reconsider about the article title.

Thank you. The guideline on English Wikipedia is to use the most common name that appears in English language sources. In this case, "Royal Hungarian Honvéd" appears about 20-30 times more often than "Royal Hungarian Honvédseg", for example, on the Internet or at google books, hence the title. Hope that helps. --Bermicourt (talk) 13:44, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Recent events

Hi,

please note that with the exception of the general "honved->honvéd" replacement I did nothing wrong, as per BRD a restored chnages to the previous version.

Consequently, by your revert you also reverted some changes by other users that was not the subject of debate and are a long time standing in the article.

Thus, I will restore the historic naming ortography.

Assuming you had a problem with your edit

- 'Royal Hungarian Honvédség -> "Royal Hungarian Honvéd"

- commonly known as the Honvédség -> commonly known as the Honvéd

and my general replacement is recent, of course let's discuss about it.

1. My problem is the Honvéd is not plural, but single. Thus refferring to the whole should be Honvédség (if you say English sources also refer to the whole as Honvéd that I can accept)

2. Regarding the "commonly known" sentence, the same holds, generally it is known as "Honvédség", but simple units are called "Honvéd". We have to clarify here that the common name is considered in English, or in Hungarian, or we should mention both.

3. Do you have any objection against the general replacement of "Honved" to "Honvéd"? (this is common also in English and consistent even with the title and usage, just in some places the diactritics are missing since not everybody having the "é" character and used "e" instead)

Thank You(KIENGIR (talk) 11:59, 16 December 2018 (UTC))

Thanks for explaining your position. I'll make a couple of points and try and answer your questions:

• First, you can see the naming of Honved[seg] etc. is potentially contentious from the talk page, so we should seek consensus here before changing the article.
• I created the article as Royal Hungarian Landwehr and changed the title based on research into English-language sources. To change it again, needs convincing research that there is a more WP:COMMONNAME
• It is quite normal for English not to use foreign plurals or foreign accents; sometimes we only half-translate names e.g. Bayern Munich.
• When you type Royal Hungarian Honved into the ngram viewer at [1] you get a fair few hits; Royal Hungarian Honvedseg generates nothing.
• English sources use both Honved and Honvéd; I haven't researched which is the most common, but you're welcome to do that. But please don't just do it because it's the native name.
• I don't have a view on the naming of regiments, because I haven't researched it, but again they should be based on what English sources commonly call them.
• Of course, if we use English names, it is perfectly sensible to explain the Hungarian names as well, usually in brackets

Hope that helps. Bermicourt (talk) 20:26, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer, I think we should conduct an easy solution:

- about the historic names there is no issue, since a user just now changed some contemporary Hungarian names to their modern ones, English sources could not have them that time, they are fair and consistent anyway

- I will not abouse the "Royal Hungarian Honvéd" term, but let's make and agreement to add to the "commonly known" also the Hungarian term, thus both English and Hungarian will be shown

- Since as you said "Honved" and "Honvéd" are both used by English sources, let's be consistent to the article and main name, thus let's change the remainder Honved to Honvéd. Thank You.(KIENGIR (talk) 22:35, 16 December 2018 (UTC))

Questions

Hi there! Sorry but I do not understand if the Royal Croatian Home Guard was like the Landeschuetzen but part of the Royal Hungarian Honvéd. Thank yoou in advance. --Nicola Romani (talk) 15:12, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

The text is a translation of the German:

Die k.u. Landwehr war geteilt in die ungarische Landwehr und die kroatisch-slawonische Landwehr, wobei den Kroaten im „kleinen Ausgleich“ von 1868 das Recht zugestanden wurde, Kroatisch als Dienst- und Kommandosprache in ihren Honvéd-Einheiten einzuführen. Außerdem unterstanden die kroatisch-slawonischen Honvéd-Einheiten dem Ban in Agram und nicht dem Landesverteidigungsminister in Budapest.

Hope that helps. Bermicourt (talk) 08:14, 28 January 2020 (UTC)