Talk:Ror

An irrelevant source

I found out that Dialogue & Daggers:Notion of Authority and Legitimacy in the Early Delhi Sultanate 1192 C.E.-1316 C.E. p. 167. ISBN 9789384318468, written by Ayan Shome, was added in this page as a reference. However, this book doesn't even mention about the Rors!

Please check the reference. Arnab2305 (talk) 05:44, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Page 167. - Sitush (talk) 09:57, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Reference to Steppe Ancestry

Forgive my unfamiliarity with Wikipedia processes, I stumbled upon something that might be worth including in the article. From the page "Yamnaya culture" there is a reference and direct link to this page based on genetic study which shows a high representation of early steppe ancestry in Ror people.

"The Rors stand out in South Asia as the population with the highest proportion of Steppe ancestry".

Pathak AK, Kadian A, Kushniarevich A, Montinaro F, Mondal M, Ongaro L, et al. (6 December 2018). "The Genetic Ancestry of Modern Indus Valley Populations from Northwest India". The American Journal of Human Genetics. 103 (6): 918–929. doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2018.10.022. PMC 6288199. PMID 30526867.

2600:1700:2AB1:8540:645F:D816:29CD:73B5 (talk) 18:47, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

We do not use genetics papers in caste articles. - Sitush (talk) 10:01, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

History section full of unsourced propaganda

@Kautilya3: - There is repeated vandalism/propaganda on history section. There is no source for "Ror Dynasty" being linked to Rors of Haryana. It says Arora Dynasty in second source, not Ror.

First source has NO mention of Ror Dynasty at all! and second source mentions Arora Dynasty. Nothing in sources links anything to Rors of Haryana. Nor any ties of Ror to Sindh. https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Ror#History

Please look into it and remove this vandalism/propaganda.117.198.113.124 (talk) 17:13, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: - I looked through the page history and it was added by banned user https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Special:Contributions/Anuragtaya - Their propaganda edits were not removed from history section, please look into it. 117.198.113.124 (talk) 17:15, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

NitinMlk, can you help? It looks like the problematic edits are in this diff, but there are also good edits in there. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:21, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: Thank you, the problem is entirely history section, Sindh Arora Dynasty being passed off as Ror Haryana/UP here. No problem with Infobox though. 117.198.113.124 (talk) 17:40, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: "Aror Dynaty" page name was changed to "Ror Dynasty" by this User recently https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Special:Contributions/Ror84here Please take note. 117.198.113.124 (talk) 18:18, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: Please look into this also, history section is full of propaganda by Ror84here, even changed Aror Dynasty page to Ror Dynasty just to fit his propaganda.117.198.112.153 (talk) 20:35, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Hey !! I think problem was created by user param arora who manipulates the Ror page and also added name relevant to Ror as he got blocked from Wikipedia due to his culprits he created propganda and modifies all names of ror to arora in pages and creating propganda himself. It is necessary to maintain decorum to preserve some pages history. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Param.arora&action=view Ror84here (talk) 11:20, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I removed it & then saw this discussion. The entire section was a house of cards. - Sitush (talk) 10:02, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Linking people to castes

Unless a living person can be shown to self-identify as a member of a particular caste in a reliable source, we do not show them in caste lists. - Sitush (talk) 10:10, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Varna

Even if we had a reliable source for it, consensus has long been that varna is not mentioned in lead sections (and, by extension, in infoboxes & short descriptions). - Sitush (talk) 10:37, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

You can mention in any other section as page contains limited information I think this the basic intro about Ror

Answer all queries Who are Ror , What is Ror and can be mentioned in section as population and varna is a part of caste identity as well . Ror84here (talk) 10:54, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it could be but (a) you know the source is not reliable and (b) even now, you keep adding it to the lead section. I should add that if you do find a reliable source, the chances are high that I find one which contradicts it - that is the way it is with most agricultural castes. - Sitush (talk) 13:20, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Hey sources are non reliable in case of genetics details but I am not providing genetics details Dna and color and any Race particular, The think that got mentioned are also sourced in that article and are correct for (a) secondly,If you think In Lead section It should be not getting mentioned so you can add it to below sections, I think adding this details in noticable persons is also a funny thing that only above section seems relevant for adding that info and page contains limited amount or negligible information about Rors as I think you should have to add to make it more transparent and objective on Ror page Ror84here (talk) 13:58, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

We don't disregard policy etc just because an article is short. Genetics papers are unreliable for caste matters, period. What expertise does a geneticist have regarding ancient historical socio-religious terminology? Where did they obtain that knowledge? - Sitush (talk) 14:41, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Last best version

Article needs to be reverted to last best version, which is 1317 yesterday. Not sure if it is socks, meats or just cluelessness but a lot of rubbish has come back since then & I cannot revert it myself due to 3RR (also, a very tortuous process on mobile!) - Sitush (talk) 07:08, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Article is largely devoid of useful information

I note that the article, as it is now(https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Ror&oldid=1038138876) provides very little information that a reader would find useful. Some of the information from the earlier versions should be restored.

"Ror is an Indian caste."
"In the parts of Baiswara in Uttar Pradesh that are inhabited by Ror people,[1] Rors along with groups such as the Chauhans and Tomars are associated with Delhi and its outskirts."
"The migration history of Rors began and ended in Haryana, a region north of Delhi.[2]"

They don't tell me much.

Specifically the reports based on scholarly studies should be mentioned. Discussion of Varna (it is a problematic issue, since there is no established standard for judging that) should be avoided. If legends are mentioned, their sources should be cited. A modern oral legend is not as useful as a tradition with some literary history. Malaiya (talk) 20:51, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Which scholarly studies do you mean? One of the difficulties with this article has always been that the Ror do not appear to have attracted much academic interest. However, that article might appear to be short is not a reason to relax our policies and guidelines. - Sitush (talk) 06:46, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Query

LaundryPizza03, this edit seems like a good-faith oversight, as the source does mention Rors on page no. 167. Here's the relevant quote:

Helpful indications were ethnographies compiled during the era of the British Raj. For example it is reported that Chauhan (Chahamana) Rajputs had numerous settlements on the outskirts of Delhi by the early part of the twentieth century.⁶ Also in large numbers were Tomar (Tomara) Rajputs, a clan historically connected with the Chauhans.⁷ Also interestingly, not only these groups, but other groups as well, had a migration history that was by their own traditions quite modest. Another warrior pastoralist group, the Rors, had a migration history that began and ended within Haryana, a region just north of Delhi.⁸

So I guess the details and the relevant content should be reinstated. - NitinMlk (talk) 17:51, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

@NitinMlk: Okay, it has been restored. But this is the only mention in the book, which I can't preview, and doesn't explain enough about the history of the Ror. Are there other reliable sources about this? –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:40, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

LaundryPizza03, I apologise for the extreme delay. You are right that it's just a passing mention in the source. In fact, the Rors are just mentioned to show the example of those groups who had a "migration history that was by their own traditions quite modest." And I haven't seen any other reliable source covering this detail. Also, see my edit summary. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:57, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

@NitinMlk: Thanks, removed as too vague. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 22:06, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2021

Add Neeraj Chopra name . 2409:4053:E11:8B44:978A:C10E:6C64:20EB (talk) 11:10, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:12, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

The migration of Rors begin and end in Haryana. Explanation

The Ror became an independent caste identity in Haryana itself 261 years ago after the third battle of Panipat. More than one Kshatriya (warriors) groups fighting on the Maratha side settled in Haryana after the war. The caste emerged to become the present Ror Caste of Haryana. Find references to suit your needs. Thanks Wikieditor1008 (talk) 09:29, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

No, the WP:BURDEN is on you to find reliable sources, and if you repeatedly make unfounded statements such as this on talk pages it is quite possible that you will find yourself blocked. - Sitush (talk) 10:58, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Addition of History and Notable people

Dear Wikipedia, with due respect, I want to conferm some changes on this page with the help of suitable references. And I'll make sure that the viewers must enoy a better experience.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4051:28b:9fad::1073:f0ad (talk • contribs)

Neeraj chopra an Indian track and field athlete is also belong to ror caste Anonymous being on earth (talk) 17:42, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2021

Neeraj Chopra ( Olympic Gold Medalist ) is also from Ror Caste. He is from Khandra Village in Panipat (Haryana). 2409:4051:4E08:790C:0:0:9908:6208 (talk) 16:52, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: See this - hako9 (talk) 18:01, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Correction needed on the article immediately.

The Ror caste does not belong to Sikhism at all and The ror caste does not practice Sikhism ever, however we do respect to all culture and religions.

I request to Wikipedia please make correction on the page.

Thank you 2605:8D80:668:228B:A532:5457:CB8E:591A (talk) 22:07, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done and won't be done, because this reliable source clearly shows your claim to be erroneous - Arjayay (talk) 22:11, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

References

Neeraj Chopra is a notable people and belongs to Ror caste

Neeraj Chopra is a notable people and belongs to Ror caste 2409:4051:198:4C42:3427:DA25:54B5:921D (talk) 15:18, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Requires source with self-identification (interview) in which he says that he is a Ror, per consensus at WP:INB. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:26, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Well I am from his neighboring village (Shera) and he is 100% Ror. If you are just looking for written statements then have a look at these:

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Neeraj_Chopra#:~:text=Neeraj%20Chopra%20was%20born%20in,family%20in%20Khandra%20Panipat%2C%20Haryana.

https://www.altnews.in/does-neeraj-chopra-have-maratha-lineage-alt-news-investigation/

You can also just search google and go through different articles from well known news papers and clear any of your remaining doubts. 14.139.225.227 (talk) 18:21, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Romil Chaudhary is a notable people and belong to Ror caste.

Romil Chaudhary is a notable people and belong to Ror caste. 2409:4051:2003:655E:DCC9:B2BB:5D21:7200 (talk) 07:15, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done - Romil Chaudhary does not have his own article on the English Wikipedia, so is ineligible for inclusion. - Arjayay (talk) 11:43, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

External links section empty

User:Arjayay can you remove the section on external links? It is already empty. 103.240.204.158 (talk) 03:31, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

• Done This took barely 25 seconds –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 06:02, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Be fair - the article is semi-protected, so the IP couldn't do it themselves - Arjayay (talk) 20:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Ror caste gentics

According to research done in American journal of human genetics and genome..Ror are light skinned eurasian migrated people who brought eurasian characters to indus valley..Ror is only caste with 6 feet average height in india. Their ancestory can be noticed in Sindh pakistan as well.Raja Ror/Rai diyach and Sorath epic tales are still famous in pakistan Sindh region.Famous poetess Abida parveen has also sung Sur sorath and it is practiced by almost all sindhi folk musicians..But ror in india are not aware about Raja ror/Rai diyach... 2409:4051:4E19:EA1:7584:DB4C:7A85:1D8E (talk) 19:28, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Where are your WP:Reliable sources? - Arjayay (talk) 20:36, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

@Arjayay: Moreover, genetics are not allowed in Indian caste/community articles per WP:CONSENSUS at WP:INB, reliable or not. Besides the research paper in question doesn't mention anything like what the IP is saying, it only implies that these samples seem to harbor high West Eurarian ancestries among the studied samples (thus can be extracted to be used as a proxy for the hypothetical ANI ancestry, previously done using the Kalash populations of Pakistan), it is still an admixed population (like most moderns in the world) and very much part of the Indian-Cline as geneticists term it, with ~60% of the female lineages (mtDNA) of native South Asian origin as well as 20% Andamanese Onge like ancestry as observed by the research itself. Not to mention it is not a favored research paper since it uses dated formula miscalculating averages, especially steppe proportions of all the samples it uses in the study. It is a moot point now since we cannot use genetics per consensus, but also need to note that news articles have miss quoted the research paper, similar to many other researches done in Indian media. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:30, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: Pathak et al. (2018)? Should I remove Ror genetics content in other articles as well, such as Genetics_and_archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia? –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 18:25, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Aror city of sindh

To the west of Jaisalmer, there is an old town called aror, which was the main area of ​​Dahir . when Qasim attacked Sindh, the people of ror and jat castes had shifted towards Haryana, by the way, Dahir was a Mohyal Brahmin. At the time of Chach, the Hindus of Sindh had taken part in the battle of camel in Basra, Iraq, (then further Mohyals also took part in Karbala) .then when Qasim got victory over Deval(712ad), many Hindu castes came towards Haryana from aror sindh and they were called ror and jats in haryana. 103.206.177.49 (talk) 08:59, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

OBC not Forward

@Kautilya3: Hello, someone has added that Ror are "Forward Caste" but they are not. The provided article is talking about their OBC reservation status in Haryana.

This article for example. https://www.livemint.com/Politics/pSY2eySzgDhkOMeDjayX1M/Jats-five-other-castes-granted-reservation-in-Haryana.html

• Bills granting quota for Jats, five other castes passed in Haryana.
• The bills propose quotas for Jats and five other castes—Jat Sikh, Ror, Bishnoi, Tyagi and Mulla Jat/Muslim Jat—by constituting a new classification Block ‘C’ in the Backward Classes category.
• The Haryana Backward Classes (Reservation in Services and Admission in Educational Institutions) Bill, 2016, proposed to give statutory status to Backward Classes Block ‘A’, Backward Classes Block ‘B’ and Backward Classes Block ‘C’.

There has also been considerable vandalism on Aror page as well, where someone was adding twitter as source. I have reverted this twitter-linked source vandalism there. Please take note of this. 117.198.113.80 (talk) 03:32, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: please take note of this problem. Not Forward Caste but OBC.

@Kautilya3: Hello, can you please take not of this? Ror are classificed as OBC, not Forward Caste. Please take note of the source. 117.198.116.152 (talk) 11:05, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:53, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

What about the stay order? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:39, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: I've removed the whole sentence. First added in this revision, but is WP:OR. The other things about religion was a partial revert of sockfarm Prince Of Roblox. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:56, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: Why did you remove the OBC sentence? I don't understand the justification from this talk. What was OR about the original sentence? –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 20:09, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

@LaundryPizza03: Let me explain, chronologically.

1) User BharatGanguly added this sentence -> "It is classified as a Forward caste" based on a source [1] that mentions the opposite, that is Rors being categorized as a 'backward caste'. So it is a clear case of WP:OR, which is what I'm talking about above.

2) Yesterday, I corrected it [2], added the OBC bit, as well as added another source (livemint one provided by the IP above) to support that. Both are sources dated March 2016

3) Kautilya3 referred the Jat agitation article and provided a newer (May 2016) source above that talks about a stay order on the status. Hence, I've removed for now. Hope this makes me clear - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:00, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: I'm pretty sure that misrepresentation of source is lying, not OR. I also think that we could just explain that the Ror used to be classified as an OBC, until the stay order on the classification was placed in May 2016. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:35, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

@LaundryPizza03: That we can discuss with Kautilya3 (and other users if required). I've removed it for being contentious at the moment (see the page history as well). After eight+ months, I forgot a lot of Wiki-jargon and WP:OR is the one that struck my mind. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 20:03, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

@ Fylindfotberserk, my edit in which I mentioned that the Ror is a forward caste wasn't OR. Check this Haryana govt site. Ror doesn't feature in either of the lists pertaining to OBCs and SCs. So, it obviously becomes a Forward caste. As far as granting reservation to Ror is concerned, Haryana govt tried to include the group in Backward classes but as rightly pointed out by Kautilya3, it could never be implemented due to court stay. So, what matters is the present status ie "forward". I tried to find sources which explicitly use the term forward for Rors but couldn't find any. However, it was easy to find sources which identify Ror as an upper caste like this one. BharatGanguly (talk) 17:45, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

@BharatGanguly: Explicit mention is required otherwise it becomes WP:OR. As for the uppercaste bit, while it is supported in your reference, I don't see it being used in the lede of Brahmin or Rajput articles for example, or lower caste in the Chamar article for that matter. Jats is another good article to look into, which doesn't mention anything of this sort in the lead either. Personally, I don't think these identifiers are necessary, atleast in the lead. I'll ping a few editors @Sitush, LukeEmily, Admantine123, Chariotrider555, and NitinMlk: - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:16, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Fylindfotberserk, the case of Jat is different as it has got OBC status in several states like Delhi, UP and Rajasthan. However, in case of Ror, they have no access to reservation in any of the Indian state and it can easily be verified from the sites of respective state govts. Explicit mention is difficult to get. I would call it common sense rather than OR to mention forward caste. BharatGanguly (talk) 18:30, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

@BharatGanguly: I mentioned other caste articles also. WP:OR is necessary, or we don't mention it at all. IMO it is not important, I don't see the forward caste or general category tagged in articles. Lets see what others had to say. Lets get a WP:CONSENSUS here. Pinging @Kautilya3 and LaundryPizza03: as well. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:37, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I think it is fine to leave it out. The stay order means that the government order did not take effect. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:37, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Agree with both @Kautilya3: and @Fylindfotberserk:. Definitely not suitable for lead. Also, as Kautilya3 says, if there is a stay order that means they are not OBC right now. BTW, Rajput is OBC in Karnataka but not sure why they have mentioned forward caste with Karnataka as an exception in lead. Also Ravana Rajputs, Kanet Rajputs are OBC. In general, IMHO, we should remove forward caste or OBC etc. from lead as it is too complex at times (just like Varna).LukeEmily (talk) 14:17, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I was pinged here one month ago, but the discussion is already over. Anyway, I agree with the points made by Fylindfotberserk, Kautilya3, and LukeEmily. Note that even if they will somehow get the OBC status in Haryana state, Rors and Jats of Haryana will still remain Forward caste in the Central Government list. In fact, leaving behind Rajasthan's selected districts, Jats will remain Forward Caste at the Central level, as the highest authority (Supreme Court) has already ruled against their inclusion.

Upper caste and lower caste depend on context, region, period, etc. Any non-Dalit caste is upper caste in comparison to Dalits, although it may itself be tagged as lower caste in comparison to some other non-Dalit castes. Similarly, a caste may be 'upper' in one state and 'lower' in the other. So this is a comparative term and shouldn't be used in the lead or out of context. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:14, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

References
References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 June 2023

Balwant Singh (volleyball) is a notable people of Ror caste. Please add this person in Notable people section. Source- https://books.google.co.in/books?id=rkPGEAAAQBAJ&newbks=0&printsec=frontcover&pg=PT112&dq=Ror&hl=en&source=newbks_fb&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=Balwant%20singh%20ror&f=false Anuj Choudhary Ror (talk) 07:32, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Anuj Choudhary Ror, the source provided by you is unreliable for caste, as it is a self-published book by an engineer: it is published by Notion Press – see WP:SPS. Please find a reliable source. BTW, caste members routinely publish puffery pieces about their own caste, but they aren't considered reliable on this project. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:21, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Dalel Singh Ror You should have no doubts as the name itself suggests that it is Ror and the article also says the same. Please add this information on Notable Person Section.

Thank You Anuj Choudhary Ror (talk) 07:19, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

No, that's not how it works. If the person is alive, you have to provide a source (an interview) where s/he explicitly mentions that they belong to XYZ caste per consensus and policy WP:CASTEID. Having a certain surname isn't enough. Secondly, for the respective articles of the individuals, per the same policy you have to demonstrate that his/her caste is important in their endeavors which is most of the time not the case - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:47, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Ror tribe are Tall in the community which is Attributes of Warriors around 6 feet (average height).

Source- https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Haryana_CET_Group_C_Exam_2022_Common_Eli/-vR-EAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=ror&pg=PA95&printsec=frontcover

Add this information Anuj Choudhary Ror (talk) 06:55, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

We do not add these kind of info in Wikipedia. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:03, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Can they add (Ror are the modern population that is closest to the first prehistorical and early historical South Asian ancient samples near the Indus Valley)

Source- Anuj Choudhary Ror (talk) 08:13, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

We have consensus not to add content based on genetic researches on caste/community articles of India and related regions. I believe it has been discussed in this talk page many times and ahve been rejected. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:02, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Isha Books

Isha Books, along with Gyan Publishing and Kalpaz Publications, are not considered reliable on this project, as they plagiarise even Wikipedia – see here. They are so notorious that I just needed to glance at a few pages of the source in question to find blatant plagiarism. Expectedly, the book plagiarises from here, there, and everywhere, e.g. check out page no. 229, which is fully plagiarised from two different sources:

Example of typical plagiarism by Isha Books

Here is the first half of the page no. 229: Gajrani, S., ed. (2004). History, Religion and Culture of India. Isha Books. p. 229. ISBN 978-81-8205-060-0. Not a single village in the Punjab is homogeneous. Every community has its own social customs which are different to some extent from those of others. Religion further determines this cultural difference and mode of living. Even when a Jat and a Khatri are next-door neighbours, some of their cultural traits remain different from each other. The practice of widow remarriage, for instance, is accepted by the Jats but it is almost a taboo among the Khatris. The Jats and the Khatris are further sub-divided into many clans which have their characteristic differences in customs pertaining to birth, death, marriage, etc. Then there are the erstwhile low-castes who differ from all the other people in their habits and social customs. Besides, the three geographical strips, Majha, Malwa and Doaba have certain local cultural traits. It is marvelous that under all these peculiarities a thread of homogeneity binds the Punjabis together as a whole. The Greeks, the Scythians, the Parthians, the Huns, the Pathans and the Mughals came here, settled down and got woven into its cultural fabric. This is copy-pasted from the following copyrighted book: Bedi, Sohinder Singh (1971). Folklore of the Punjab. National Book Trust. pp. 8–9. OCLC 837109967. Not a single village in the Punjab is homogeneous. Every community has its own social customs which are different to some extent from those of others. Religion further determines this cultural difference and mode of living. Even when a Jat and a Khatri are next-door neighbours, some of their cultural traits remain different from each other. The practice of widow remarriage, for instance, is accepted by the Jats but it is almost a taboo among the Khatris. The Jats and the Khatris are further sub-divided into many clans which have their characteristic differences in customs pertaining to birth, death, marriage, etc. Then there are the erstwhile low-castes who differ from all the other people in their habits and social customs. Besides, the three geographical strips, Majha, Malwa and Doaba have certain local cultural traits. It is marvelous that under all these peculiarities a thread of homogeneity binds the Punjabis together as a whole. The Greeks, the Scythians, the Parthians, the Huns, the Pathans and the Mughals came here, settled down and got woven into its cultural fabric. Here is the second half of the page no. 229: Gajrani, S., ed. (2004). History, Religion and Culture of India. Isha Books. p. 229–230. ISBN 978-81-8205-060-0. Language Of the 24,754,737 people in the Punjab about 18,000,000 speak the provincial language, Punjabi, which varies in character in different parts of the province. About 4,000,000 speak Hindustani, this number including those whose ordinary vernacular is Hindi, but who understand and are gradually adopting the more comprehensive Hindustani. These two languages are the most generally used throughout the province, but not equally in all parts. The other languages in use are more or less local. The hill dialects, known as Pahari, are akin to the language spoken in Rajputana; and so also is the speech of the Gujars. Hindustani is the language of the law courts and of all ordinary officials and other communications with chiefs and people. This is copy-pasted from from page no. 655 of the Encyclopædia Britannica (1911): Language.—Of the 24,754,737 people in the Punjab about 18,000,000 speak the provincial language, Punjabi, which varies in character in different parts of the province. About 4,000,000 speak Hindustani (see Hindostani), this number including those whose ordinary vernacular is Hindi, but who understand and are gradually adopting the more comprehensive Hindustani. These two languages are the most generally used throughout the province, but not equally in all parts. The other languages in use are more or less local. The hill dialects, known as Pahari, are akin to the language spoken in Rajputana; and so also is the speech of the Gujars. Hindustani is the language of the law courts and of all ordinary officials and other communications with chiefs and people.

- NitinMlk (talk) 21:54, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Add information

Ror is the most unique and distinctive caste of India. Check source

Anuj Choudhary Ror (talk) 09:13, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 March 2024

Rod community, spread across 230 villages around Panipat, has descended from the 500-odd Maratha soldiers who hide in jungles around Panipat after being scattered by Afghan Ahmad Shah Abdali's forces Source : India today Article- https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/society-and-the-arts/story/20120123-haryana-rods-trace-their-lineage. DevinAI (talk) 12:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done, News articles are not reliable. Requires WP:HISTRS compliant WP:SCHOLARY sources. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Kindly add this line without removing any part : Aror once served as the capital of Sindh.Aror was once ancestral town of the Ror Dynasty or Ror Community. The name was given after the Arab Invasion with Al-Ror or Al-Rur. DevinAI (talk) 21:36, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

With reference of : Bhutto Women University Pakistan

https://bnbwu.edu.pk/history-of-sukkur/ DevinAI (talk) 21:36, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

edit request on 20 March 2024

Kindly add this line : Aror once served as the capital of Sindh.Aror was once ancestral town of the Ror Dynasty or Ror Community. The name was given after the Arab Invasion with Al-Ror or Al-Rur.

With reference of : Bhutto Women University Pakistan

https://bnbwu.edu.pk/history-of-sukkur/ DevinAI (talk) 04:42, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done – DreamRimmer (talk) 17:11, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done This is not a scholarly or WP:HISTRS compliant source. Besides, see the discussion here and the archives. There were multiple attempts to link the Ror community of Haryana with the Aror of Sindh by multiple POV pushers and sock puppets, but apparently no RS have been found. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:08, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Uttarakhand Sanskrit University

https://usvv.ac.in › Dec-2023PDF

Sorath Rai Diyach and Ror-vansh - A Dynasty that Counters History@

Sorath Rai Diyach and Ror-vansh - A Dynasty that Counters History Himanshu Lambra Assistant Professor GGDSD College, Chandigarh Abstract:  The research paper proposes to initiate a case study of a warrior dynasty’s position in history that got overshadowed by the elites’ urge to maintain a smooth narrative that conforms to its symmetrical structure. Ror-vansh, an Indian Kshatriya Dynasty that once ruled Sindh with exemplary efficiency, now sits outside the matrix of the Indian Historical narrative and counters the mainstream history by its anecdotes that have been passed on through generations by the bards and their folklore ballads.  An anecdote, whether it is in the form of a written record or ‘word of mouth’, has the potential to break the chain of historical events, although it does depend on the magnitude of the anecdote, and the contrast it might create with respect to the mainstream history. New Historicism provides an opportunity to question and analyse the story and contextual background of the source by omitting the lines that divide the literary and social constructs. Here, the anecdote of Sorath Rai Diyach from the famous collection of tragedies of Sindh, ‘Shah-Jo-Risalo’, by Shah Abdul Latif Bhittai shall be used to identify the place of Ror-vansh in the course of history that doesn’t embrace the dynasty due to “lack of evidence”. Keywords: Anecdote, Counter-history, Ror, History, Indian-history Introduction: The Ror-vansh is an elite clan of Kshatriya origin that belonged to Ikshvaku dynasty. Rai Diyach, also known as Ror Kumar or Raja Dhaj, was a descendant of Ror-vansh, whose glory stood unfazed in the face of testing times, and lives on through verbal anecdotes, one of which was penned down by the Sufi poet of Sindh, Shah Abdul Latif Bhittai in his collection of tragedies of the seven queens of Sindh.  The anecdote covers the tragic story of King Rai Diyach and his Queen Sorath, who fall into the arms of death due to the one promise the king made to the minstrel Beejal as a reward for the “heart-piercing” performance by the latter. This anecdote shall be used to shed light on the various elements related to Rai Diyach, the political and geographical context which will serve to initiate and motivate further research to solidify the claim of the Ror Dynasty’s position in the wide spectrum of history through counter-history.

The history of a nation, just like other ideological constructs, is looked after by the authorities in order to maintain a sense of coherence, which helps to provide a narrative that makes the diverse sections of that country stick together with a feeling of belongingness towards the nation. The historiographers require concrete records as proof in order to maintain the historical narrative, and sometimes, even with the availability of abundant evidence, the narrative remains unchallenged and unchanged, as those potential changes might not sit well with the narrative that the authorities wish to promote. However, there’s another possibility, independent of the controller’s perception of the consequences of addressing the change, directed by the negligence towards the cause of the section of the society, as the section amounts to a minority. In any case, mending a well-structured narrative appears to be a challenge that the authorities prefer avoiding unless the forthcoming changes seem beneficial to their own cause. As a result, the truth remains hidden, unless, an anecdote of considerable magnitude surfaces and questions the historical narrative. The coming forth of a source of private information that complicates or contradicts the existing narrative is what Lionel Gossman calls “Counter History”.  “Not surrprisingly, the friends of power, those concerned with maintaining public images and decorum, have generally been fearful of anecdotes and have lost no opportunity to denigrate them, while at the same time enjoying them in private and, when necessary, using them against their own enemies.” Sorath Rai Diyach – Lionel Gossman (1) The love story of Rai Diyach, the King of Girnar, Junagadh (presently in Gujarat) and his Queen Sorath, is one of the seven tragedies of Sindh, compiled in ‘Shah-Jo-Risalo’ by the poet of Sindh- Shah Abdul Latif Bhittai, the Sindhi philosopher, Sufi scholar, mystic, saint, and poet. The anecdote that was verbally passed on, travelled to Bhittai who recorded it in Sindhi language, and even today, the anecdote breathes and rests in the library of Sindhi Adabi Board, in the form of a book titled ‘Sorath- Rai Diyach and Heer- Ranjha’ written by Dr. Nabi Bakhsh Baloch. When we listen to the anecdote, we witness King Rai Diyach, seated on his throne of glory with his Queen Sorath by his side, lost in the sublime effect of the musical notes being played by Beejal, the well renowned musician of the time. Mesmerized by the Ragas, the Queen seeks the support of her King’s arm, comforted by whom, she closes her eyes. The King looks at her face, thinking about how the mightiest of swords in the world were ready to clash against each other to win over the heart of the most delicate yet maddening of all beauties of the time. Hypnotized by her charm, he recalls how he himself, happily embraced animosity with another King to whom she was promised, by marrying her despite all odds. Enchanted by her beauty, his eyes are locked on her face, and enchanted by Beejal’s music, his mind is free from all predispositions. The smile of the Queen alludes to the success of Beejal’s artistry. Now, Beejal feels confident to execute the final stage of his plan. He stops playing, and the whole court appreciates him for such an ecstatic performance. The King, overjoyed by the experience, tells Beejal that he may ask for whatever reward he wants, and he shall get. Beejal asks for his majesty’s head. The Queen offers her own instead, but Beejal stands firm on his demand, and so does the King, on his word. Walking towards Beejal, the King lets the world see how a leader keeps his word, as he slices his throat with his sword.

The head falls in Beejal’s feet, who, upon realizing the gravity of his deed, puts a knife to his throat, and pays the price for penance. The Queen, losing the will to live, burns herself to ashes on her husband’s pyre. Ror Vansh and Rai Diyach Ikshvaku King Roruka and his successors established their kingdom in Sindh during post Vedic period. Their descendants eventually spread out to different parts of Gujarat and Rajasthan. The community, of roughly about 8 lakh people, primarily operates as agriculturists and landowners in North Indian states, with a majority of them residing in Chaurassi region of Haryana. The written historical manuscripts of the dynasty are said to have been burnt to ashes by the Islamic invaders, as was the practice of the ones seeking power and control over the subjects, by removing the previous layer of ideological constructs, in order to impose new ones. Rai Diyach, also known as Ror Kumar and Raja Dhaj, ruled over the province of Sindh and established the city of Rori Shankar in Sindh during his reign, where the Ror Dyansty reigned for one thousand years. Historian Dr. Raj Pal Singh mentions the impact of Raja Dhaj and his anecdote in his book, ‘Ror itihaas ki jhalak’- “Raja Dhaj occupies an extremely important place in the history of Rors. His name is commonly on the tip of every Ror's tongue and he has become the popular subject of many swaang episodes and songs, which are heard with great admiration by people of all castes in North India even today.” The anecdote, as mentioned by Historian Dr. Raj Pal Singh, has made its own mark in the cultural constructs through folklore ballads and the regional dramatic art form- “Swang”. The tale has travelled and flourished in all the areas that the Rors spread out to and made their own. From Sindh in Pakistan to Haryana, Uttar-Pradesh and Rajasthan, the legend of Sorath- Rai Diyach still resides in the conscious mind of the people. The precise dates of Rai Diyach’s reign have not been confirmed yet, as the historians have deduced varying dates with respect to his rule. Shri Ram Das, in his book, ‘Ror Vansh ka 5000 Varsh Ka Itihas’ mentions 1758 BCE as his year of birth. Beejal, as per the anecdote, strategized to compel Rai Diyach through his overwhelming musical performance, to make a ‘Dashrath ka Wada’ or an unconditional promise, so that he can ask for his head. A wish, colder than the cold sword with which the King sliced his own throat. The name Rai Diyach is a Sindhi name, which was given to Ror Kumar after the selfsacrifice. “Diyach” means “giver”, the one who gives, the generous one. “If I had millions of heads on my shoulder, I would behead myself millions of times over, That also be not measure to the ecstasy of your string!” (12) Raja Dhaj and Sorath’s marriage gave birth to six sons, Kunak, Takshak, Prasenjit, Kardhman, Raghu and Sharanjit. Their names echo in the history of regions from Sindh to Lucknow, as they moved out to establish their own rule, except Kunak, who succeeded his father and became the Monarch of Sindh. Such anecdotes provide enough information to form a sense of structure. The anecdotes talk about the people, although they may or may not reveal the “statistics”. "But if the meaning of an anecdote were to be sought less in its factual accuracy than in what it conveyed about states of mind and general trends, then even when its factual veracity was in doubt it might still be thought of as in some way illuminating historical reality." - Lionel Gossman (1) Sorath The Queen and the leading lady of the tragic anecdote turns out to be the one who suffers the most out of all the characters involved. Born with the gift of all the qualities of a royal princess, the highest of virtue was said to be her wisdom. It was the legend of her beauty, much before the tale of her tragedy, that spread out to all directions like wildfire. Renowned as she was during her lifetime, it was her tragic fate and her decision to end her life after the demise of her King, which immortalised her. This may not provide us the details like date of their marriage or death, but does instill their presence in our minds through their behavioural patterns and choices. Shah Abdul Latif Bhittai, in his ‘Shah-Jo-Risalo’ has mentioned thirty Surrs. The word Surr, derived from sanskrit word Swar, means a mode of singing in this context. The Surrs are methods, just like Ragas from Indian Classical music. Out of the thirty Surrs mentioned by Shah Bhittai, one is named by him as Sorath Surr. The Surrs comprise of Bayts, or the stories of Shah Latifi’s heroines’. “While relaxing in a palace, Rai Diyach heard the melodious tune of Tanpura. He immediately summoned Mangarhar and asked him about his purpose with secrecy. Have you come here to beg for money and property? Or, do you really demand my (slain) head? On that, Mangarhar answered by pointing his finger towards the neck of the Rai Diyach.” (Surr Sorath, 2/11: translated from Baloch by Ghulam Hussain (2016)) (14) The tragic turn of events turned the incident into an everlasting echo, a representation of the Ror Dyansty, a bullet with a potential to pierce through the walls of narrative. Beejal The Minstrel, who himself was a Ror of royal descent, born to the sister of Rai Diyach, was prophesied to become the cause of his uncle’s death. Caught up in the dilemma of whether to protect her brother or to be the responsible mother, she submitted her son to a river. The boy was raised by a shepherd named Dami, in Annirai’s kingdom. The instrument Beejal is known for playing, was made from dried up intestines of a deer that was killed and hung up on a tree by the hunters. The melodious sound that originated from the strings that Beejal

made from those intestines mesmerized the wild animals and birds, and drew them near Beejal whenever he struck the strings with his bow. Hunting and feeding his family became easy for Beejal, who also got famous for his musical artisitry. The notes released by the strings made from dead deer’s intestines, coincidentally, resonate with the ballads of this anecdote sung by the people. The details shared about the instrument bears a resemblance with famous stringed instruments found near Sindh, Gujarat and Rajasthan, like Sarangi, and Ravanhatha. The undeniable similarities between the instruments and socio-cultural practices allude to the relevance of this anecdote in context to the regional settings of Sindh and some parts of Punjab. Junagadh/ Junagarh The stronghold of Rai Diyach, Junagadh plays an important role in unfolding the stream of connecting events and facts. The historical map of Sindh does mark the presence of the regions named Roruka, Rori and Junagadh. Roruka, the name itself alludes to its connection with the race, and Rori or Rori Shankar was the city established by Raja Dhaj himself, but the lack of admission of any such information in an official manner seems to be misguiding. The mention of Junagadh and the presence of Ror rulers at the province, serves as a supportive argument from the anecdote. The departure of Raja Dhaj’s sons Takshak and Raghu to Lucknow and Pune-Satara region, respectively, adds to the logical causes behind the spreading of these anecdotes to North Indian states. Gopal Chowdhary, in his book - ‘Farce of History’ addresses a similar issue of illusions created by socio-political powers. “It would not be digression to mention that Indian social and political elites have developed unique art of marginalizing the personality, the period, the eminent historical figures and the trends having the potentiality of threatening their untrammelled and unquestioned hold on the power and the superior position.”

Conclusion The history of Sindh, though mentions the name of Roruka and Rori, pays no attention to the name of the Dynasty responsible for the origin of those cities. The same goes for the history of Indian states like Rajasthan and Haryana. In order to extract information, one must undertake the quest of going through the anecdotes that convey the hidden truths, the ones burnt and buried by the old-day invaders, and neglected by the current-day institutions, all for the sake of forceful imposition of a new ideology, and conveniently maintaining the functional one that serves their purpose, respectively. Those truths might be the missing pieces to someone’s puzzle of origin or existence. The individuality of a person depends on many factors, out of which, ethnicity and origin play a pivotal role. The perspective or the outlook that needs to be upheld while dealing with anecdotes requires a seeker’s perseverance, and not just a fact-checker’s judgement, as the anecdote would never be able to provide complete factual certainty that the historiographer seeks, but the biographical aspect of the anecdote is self-sufficient in projecting information more valuable than mere dates and figures. The insight provided by anecdotes brings one face to face with the historical personages and their circumstances, and calls forth the complexities of those circumstances. The anecdotes serve as links that connect the dots and complete the sequence that evolves into counter-history. In this paper as well, the story of Rai Diyach provided the mark of Junagarh, from where the dots got connected to the Sufi poet Shah Abdul Latif Bhittai, who emerged centuries later, but through his written record, a connection was built from Sindh to North India, as the people realised that the legends of the same people are being sung at both places. Anecdotes, are not only supposed to be used to Counter-history, but to re-align it, in order to create harmony and uproot the deep-rooted unrest from the minds of the people concerned.

Reference : 1. Gossman, L. (2003, May). Anecdote And History. History and Theory, 42(2), 143–168. https://doi.org/10.1111/1468-2303.00237 2. Gallagher (book author), C., Greenblatt (book author), S., & Martin (review author), C. G. (2000, January 1). Practicing New Historicism. Renaissance and Reformation, 36(3), 113–116. https://doi.org/10.33137/rr.v36i3.8651 3. Shah Abdul Latif Bhittai. (2014, July 19). Shah Abdul Latif Bhittai. https://en.wikipedia-onipfs.org/wiki/Shah_Abdul_Latif_Bhittai 4. Datta (Ed.). (n.d.). Encyclopaedia of Indian Literature: A-Devo: Vol. Volume 1. 5. Iyer, V. (2007, January 1). Tigers of Wrath. 6. Sindhi Adabi Board Online Library (Folk_Litrature). (n.d.). Sindhi Adabi Board Online Library (Folk_Litrature). http://www.sindhiadabiboard.org/catalogue/folk_litrature/Book40/Book_page1.html 7. https://www.coursehero.com/file/p3rahi4b/The-Roruka-Dynasty-of-Sindh-The-kings-of-Sindh-werepopularly-known-as/. (n.d.). https://www.coursehero.com/file/p3rahi4b/The-Roruka-Dynasty-of-SindhThe-kings-of-Sindh-were-popularly-known-as/ 8. Chen, J. W. (2010, November). Blank Spaces and Secret Histories: Questions of Historiographic Epistemology in Medieval China. The Journal of Asian Studies, 69(4), 1071–1091. https://doi.org/10.1017/s0021911810002883 9. Chowdhary, G. (2014, February 1). The Greatest Farce of History. 10.F. A. (2014, October 8). Stephen Greenblatt: The Critic as Anecdotalist - Intercollegiate Studies Institute. Intercollegiate Studies Institute. https://isi.org/modern-age/stephen-greenblatt-the-critic-asanecdotalist/ 11.Sorath Rai Diyach : Sat Surmyun The Seven Queens. (n.d.). India Forums. https://www.indiaforums.com/fanfiction/chapter/14207 12.Purswani, G. (2021, May 18). Sorath Rai Diyach – Khudabadi Sonara Community Group. Sorath Rai 103.203.209.178 (talk) 16:06, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Origin of ror

Ror is originated from Arora community when some Aroras married jat woman and Rors originated from it so please mention it in this article i have source Sakaluttarpathanath (talk) 21:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: as you have not not cited any reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 22:03, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Tisman (also known as chistana),Timan was a very powerful Ror ruler in the 2nd century ADt

Fort

Timangarh Fort, Karauli, Rajasthan Timangarh Fort This Fort is situated at a distance of 40 Km from Karauli City near Masalpur town adjacent to Sagar Lake in Village Kanchanpur Tarhati, District Karauli, Rajasthan.

History of Timangarh Fort : It was built by Timan or Tisman, a powerful Ror ruler of 2nd Century A.D. who ruled over present day Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Gujarat, Haryana and Western Uttar Pradesh. It is believed to have been occupied by the forces of Mohammad Ghori, the Sultan of Ghazni from 1196-1244 A.D. It was reconstructed in 1244 A.D. by Yaduvanshi Raja Timanpal, the scion of Vijay Pal, the Raja of Bayana. This fact has been supported by a stone engraving at the entrance of the Fort. 103.203.209.178 (talk) 15:39, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

https://www.rajasthantourstoindia.com/city/karauli/timangarh-fort 103.203.209.178 (talk) 15:44, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Ror also know as ror saka( western kshatrap)

https://ujjain.dcourts.gov.in/about-department/history/ 103.203.209.178 (talk) 15:43, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

ror ruler name tisman,chistan(western kshatrap ruler) 103.203.209.178 (talk) 16:22, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

add this information about ror 103.203.209.178 (talk) 06:53, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

It is not a reliable source. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:39, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

its a govt official site .not just one many of site reference this 103.203.209.178 (talk) 14:38, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

tisman also similar name chistana . Chistana the one,who stated western kshatrap 103.203.209.178 (talk) 14:40, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

https://ujjain.dcourts.gov.in/about-department/history/#:~:text=Ujjain%20is%20reputed%20to%20have,Satavahanas%20ruled%20the%20city%20consecutively.

https://www.ujjaindarshan.com/ujjain-history.html

Go through this link brother. 103.203.209.178 (talk) 14:48, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Government sources are not reliable when it comes to history. Find WP:HISTRS compliant sources. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

so you mean govt source not edited by historian 103.203.209.178 (talk) 14:56, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources coming from historians. See WP:SCHOLARSHIP. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:03, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

is wikipedia itself reliable source 103.203.209.178 (talk) 15:14, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia itself reference this. In the Post-Mauryan period, the Sungas and the Satavahanas ruled the city consecutively. The Satavahanas and the Ror Sakas, known as Western Satraps, contested for control of the city for a period. Following the end of the Satavahana dynasty, the Rors retained Ujjain from the second to the twelfth century C.E. After the Mauryans, Ujjain was controlled by a number of empires and dynasties, including local dynasties, the Shungas, the Western Satraps, the Satavahanas, and the Guptas. 103.203.209.178 (talk) 15:16, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

If any article uses this source, remove it. Also see Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a reliable source. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:19, 2 October 2024 (UTC)